Cambridge college's bronze cockerel must go, students say
Scroll to see replies
I don't support this campaign.
You'd think they'd be smarter than that
.
Original post by Chief Wiggum
There's a depressingly high amount of SJW-style thinking in Cambridge.
You'd think they'd be smarter than that
.
Original post by DiddyDec
Well actually it does. It isn't social justice for Benin it is Nigeria getting back something they stole in the first place.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Where geographically was it actually made and by whom?
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Where geographically was it actually made and by whom?
By the people of the Benin Empire in the Benin Empire. Now called Benin.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by DiddyDec
I believe what was the Benin empire is now in Nigeria? It's capital was Benin City and that is now Edo, in Southern Nigeria.
The confusion arises because what is now Benin was previously Dahomey and has little to do with it except the name apparently. (Just looked it up.)
Original post by Fullofsurprises
No, they're just knowledgeable enough to realise the background to where the bronze comes from and caring enough to want to set an old wrong right.
It feels more like a me too campaign following the one in Oxford. They should really do their competitions on rivers.
Original post by KimKallstrom
Don't be mad that their empire building tekkers weren't that good compared to some others. They still annexed places, obtained slaves and then sold slaves to YT. Let's cry for them 
Well the important thing is, they tried.
There are a whole bunch of artifacts in the British Museum and the Les Invalides needs to be repatriated.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
Actually Benin is one of the better countries in W. Africa at the moment, they are still a poor country but they had elections internationally described as free and fair, they are growing and they have a fairly stable internal situation. Maybe read something about the country before you talk about it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benin#Post-colonial_period
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benin#Post-colonial_period
As someone else pointed out the statue was collected from a palace in modern day Nigeria.
I think that is what is called being "hoist by your own petard."
Why is it a "SJW" movement if the country in question wants it back and the college is willing to give it to them?
The myopic ignorance that surrounds anything about righting wrongs is harrowing. This is nothing like the Rhodes campaign.
Also the claim about there being nothing left in the British Museum is rubbish. There's a lot of art in our museums that are considered loans from other countries. These pieces of art return to our galleries because the British brand in art care and curation is strong. There is nothing to suggest that countries would not be willing to do the same with artefacts.
Final point, as a Nigerian, I feel some clearing up about Benin geography needs to be done. The part of "Benin" that many bronzes were found in is the Nigerian part of the "empire". There are several tribes in Nigeria and alongside Igbo, Yoruba, Fulani, Hausa, there are also Benin people. Benin, the country is considered separate from the Benin tribe in Nigeria. Therefore, dear people above me who think this negates the motion, it is not surprising that it was found in modern day Nigeria and it is not surprising that they would want to return it there!
From a personal point of view, I am not really concerned about these statues but like I said, if the country wants it back and those who hold it are willing to give it back, I don't see the problem.
The myopic ignorance that surrounds anything about righting wrongs is harrowing. This is nothing like the Rhodes campaign.
Also the claim about there being nothing left in the British Museum is rubbish. There's a lot of art in our museums that are considered loans from other countries. These pieces of art return to our galleries because the British brand in art care and curation is strong. There is nothing to suggest that countries would not be willing to do the same with artefacts.
Final point, as a Nigerian, I feel some clearing up about Benin geography needs to be done. The part of "Benin" that many bronzes were found in is the Nigerian part of the "empire". There are several tribes in Nigeria and alongside Igbo, Yoruba, Fulani, Hausa, there are also Benin people. Benin, the country is considered separate from the Benin tribe in Nigeria. Therefore, dear people above me who think this negates the motion, it is not surprising that it was found in modern day Nigeria and it is not surprising that they would want to return it there!
From a personal point of view, I am not really concerned about these statues but like I said, if the country wants it back and those who hold it are willing to give it back, I don't see the problem.
Original post by JezWeCan!
As someone else pointed out the statue was collected from a palace in modern day Nigeria.
I think that is what is called being "hoist by your own petard."
I think that is what is called being "hoist by your own petard."
It's more like caught up in your own eagerness.
Anywayz, I'm equally happy for it to be returned to Nigeria, so no problem here.
Original post by Maker
It feels more like a me too campaign following the one in Oxford. They should really do their competitions on rivers.
If everyone is looking in their college closet to see if they have the accumulated objects of colonialist theft that could be justly returned to show that we aren't like that any more, then that can only be a good thing.
Original post by DiddyDec
They aren't asking for Benin to get it back, they are asking for the original thieves to get it back, Nigeria.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Benin the country is different from Benin the city in Nigeria where the Benin empire originated from. Benin the country is French.
It's why I said the repatriation thing will be tricky because the empire spanned some countries in WA so they all have some right to ownership of it.
Original post by Chi_99
Why is it a "SJW" movement if the country in question wants it back and the college is willing to give it to them?
The myopic ignorance that surrounds anything about righting wrongs is harrowing. This is nothing like the Rhodes campaign.
Also the claim about there being nothing left in the British Museum is rubbish. There's a lot of art in our museums that are considered loans from other countries. These pieces of art return to our galleries because the British brand in art care and curation is strong. There is nothing to suggest that countries would not be willing to do the same with artefacts.
Final point, as a Nigerian, I feel some clearing up about Benin geography needs to be done. The part of "Benin" that many bronzes were found in is the Nigerian part of the "empire". There are several tribes in Nigeria and alongside Igbo, Yoruba, Fulani, Hausa, there are also Benin people. Benin, the country is considered separate from the Benin tribe in Nigeria. Therefore, dear people above me who think this negates the motion, it is not surprising that it was found in modern day Nigeria and it is not surprising that they would want to return it there!
From a personal point of view, I am not really concerned about these statues but like I said, if the country wants it back and those who hold it are willing to give it back, I don't see the problem.
The myopic ignorance that surrounds anything about righting wrongs is harrowing. This is nothing like the Rhodes campaign.
Also the claim about there being nothing left in the British Museum is rubbish. There's a lot of art in our museums that are considered loans from other countries. These pieces of art return to our galleries because the British brand in art care and curation is strong. There is nothing to suggest that countries would not be willing to do the same with artefacts.
Final point, as a Nigerian, I feel some clearing up about Benin geography needs to be done. The part of "Benin" that many bronzes were found in is the Nigerian part of the "empire". There are several tribes in Nigeria and alongside Igbo, Yoruba, Fulani, Hausa, there are also Benin people. Benin, the country is considered separate from the Benin tribe in Nigeria. Therefore, dear people above me who think this negates the motion, it is not surprising that it was found in modern day Nigeria and it is not surprising that they would want to return it there!
From a personal point of view, I am not really concerned about these statues but like I said, if the country wants it back and those who hold it are willing to give it back, I don't see the problem.
This x10000
especially the last paragraph. I don't see the point in the fuss. It's a very simple thing really. If our government says they want it back, they'll ask for it back. And the British might oblige. It's not like ECOWAS and the UK have bad relations.
We asked for stolen funds to be repartaited and they were/are. No drama involved.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
It's more like caught up in your own eagerness.
Anywayz, I'm equally happy for it to be returned to Nigeria, so no problem here.
Anywayz, I'm equally happy for it to be returned to Nigeria, so no problem here.
Well that must be a relief to the Nigerians.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
I think a lot depends on the original context in which things were 'acquired' and the relationship between modern states and the original state that it was removed from and also the damage caused to original sites. For example, a lot of the contention over the Elgin Marbles is around the issue of Greece not being a state at that time, but being under the Ottomans. The local Ottoman Bey allegedly gave 'permission' for the removal (eg, a large bribe was paid) and the Greeks were in no position to object. That certainly sounds like (at minimum) colonialist exploitation of the worst and most manipulative sort, or at worst, a carefully calculated piece of cultural vandalism on a grand scale taking advantage of the inability of locals to raise objection.
The Marbles were ripped off the face of the Parthenon (often causing damage to it and to some of the Marbles) and transported to Britain.
Modern Greece isn't the same state as it was back then, but either way, it can't be right.
The Marbles were ripped off the face of the Parthenon (often causing damage to it and to some of the Marbles) and transported to Britain.
Modern Greece isn't the same state as it was back then, but either way, it can't be right.
I'm not saying that I'd approve of the removal of the marbles today, although I'm not that well versed in the circumstances that led up to it. If they were in danger of being looted or left to decay, and they were taken for public display, I'm not particularly strongly opposed. Today I'd advocate for their being taken for safe-keeping and then returned when there was a safe environment for them (as, for instance, I'd do with anything retrieved from Palmyra), but that wasn't what was done at the time. I am not personally minded to go around apologising or making restitution to people who have sod all to do with Ancient Athenian civilisation or religion with regard to the actions of people in the past that had sod all to do with me, particularly not when that would open the floodgates to all sorts of 'give me "back" this artefact that was vaguely associated with people who, a long time ago, lived near where I live now' type claims.
I do see the case with regard to the Marbles, particularly since the building from which they were taken is still standing in Athens, and thus does bear some clear relation to the present Athenian people. I suppose this would also apply to a lot of Egyptian stuff. With regard to this bronze, however, imho the very fact that we can't seem to agree on whom it should be returned to makes the claim silly. It is movable property, which was taken in a war between two old empires, with no real relationship with the people who live there now or with the land itself. Even if it were an entirely sensible claim, the student union's voting in relation to property that is not theirs, but the College's, is cringeworthy.
Original post by Kvothe the arcane
You'd think they'd be smarter than that .
.There's a particular kind of quite intelligent and motivated but blinkered Cambridge student who misdirects all his energies into trivial political causes. The calibre of the student is the explanation for why this problem is worse at Oxbridge than at other universities.
Consider the comment of the JCSU Racial Equalities Officer:
how exciting and momentous and revolutionary is this?! What a time to be a Jesuan.
Yes, how exciting and momentous and revolutionary is your vote -- presumably attended, like most college student politics meetings, by about 7 or 8 people who mostly answer to the description above -- to 'return' someone else's small bit of bronze to some people who have about as little to do with it as you do. God, you must be so proud of yourself, and all the glories you have achieved.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by TimmonaPortella
I do see the case with regard to the Marbles, particularly since the building from which they were taken is still standing in Athens, and thus does bear some clear relation to the present Athenian people. I suppose this would also apply to a lot of Egyptian stuff. With regard to this bronze, however, imho the very fact that we can't seem to agree on whom it should be returned to makes the claim silly. It is movable property, which was taken in a war between two old empires, with no real relationship with the people who live there now or with the land itself. Even if it were an entirely sensible claim, the student union's voting in relation to property that is not theirs, but the College's, is cringeworthy.
I do see the case with regard to the Marbles, particularly since the building from which they were taken is still standing in Athens, and thus does bear some clear relation to the present Athenian people. I suppose this would also apply to a lot of Egyptian stuff. With regard to this bronze, however, imho the very fact that we can't seem to agree on whom it should be returned to makes the claim silly. It is movable property, which was taken in a war between two old empires, with no real relationship with the people who live there now or with the land itself. Even if it were an entirely sensible claim, the student union's voting in relation to property that is not theirs, but the College's, is cringeworthy.
The problem with giving the marbles back to Greece is you open the floodgates. All of the great museums and galleries, the British Museum, the Louvre, the Met are full of looted and plundered paintings and artefacts.
But what consists of possession? Does one country, let alone person have the right to possess great works of art? Surely they ought to be owned by all humanity? And the appropriate place for that is a great museum, where they are safe and treated well. (The marbles admittedly might be better placed at the Parthenon, but they are the exception that proves the rule so to speak).
With the world such a small place the sort of people who appreciate great art can afford to fly to Paris, or New York or London and it doesn't seem to me to matter exactly where they are. Just let them be, so they can be kept safe and seen.
This cockerel is not in a public space, however, it is in a private college. For all I know closed to public visitors, so I don't think that argument holds. It is a matter for the Master and Fellows of the College and if they decided to give it to some African museum that is up to them. It sets a lamentable precedent, but if they don't value the bronze, and don't care about their own college and its history and traditions (let alone the wishes of the bequeather) more fool them.
Original post by Mathemagicien
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/feb/21/cambridge-colleges-bronze-cockerel-must-go-back-to-nigeria-students-say
Jesus College student union passes motion saying sculpture – taken from Benin empire in 1897 – should be repatriated
Jesus College student union passes motion saying sculpture – taken from Benin empire in 1897 – should be repatriated
I keep saying it: Student politics should be as a rule ignored and quarantined to their student unions and little private student world.
I was a student, most of us here are students, I'm not being some old curmudgeon moaning about them yoofs, but seriously. Students as a rule are incredibly naive and their ideology and passions when it comes to politics are poorly weighed and lazy/simplistic.
It's why adults who have had time to live in the real world concentrate in the centre of the political spectrum. It's usually the home of the reasoned, rationalised and considered politics.
If we 'repatriate' these historical artefacts back to everyone who makes a claim on them, soon the museums of Britain are emptied, and the artefacts lost to (sorry to say) often restless developing countries who simply don;t have the personnel and amenities to properly care for these things.
The world's heritage is simply more important than the petty claims of everyone and anyone who feels they have an ancestral claim to, say, an old statue of a chicken.
If the UK was to ever become an under-developed and unsafe country, I can only hope whatever country of the time is stable and capable would take in these artefacts and look after them.
Secondly this is a pointless waste of energy and resources. If the student body of Cambridge wish to achieve some genuine good in this world, there are manifold other ways than throwing some 'Likes' and protesting over a metal bird.
Volunteer at homeless shelter kitchens, go help clean up litter, go help people who were impacted by this winter's flooding. Hell even go on one of those ethical brownie-point holidays to Africa/South America and help build wells or something.
But if you;re going to try and take the higher ground, then actually do it. Help real actual people in need instead of blowing effort on sending an artifact to a part of the world best known for it's relative poverty and high incidence of civil wars.
Original post by Fullofsurprises
If everyone is looking in their college closet to see if they have the accumulated objects of colonialist theft that could be justly returned to show that we aren't like that any more, then that can only be a good thing.
Well if you are looking for REAL objects of colonialist theft, ones that had crucial world historical importance and still do perhaps you should raise your gaze beyond a bronze chicken.
I give you Constantinople, once the headquarters of Eastern Christendom, with a gorgeous cathedral that was the wonder of the world, dripping with gold and icons and art works of sublime beauty.
Where are they now? The cathedral, the works of art OR the entire Christian population? That is what I call a theft, the theft of an entire civilisation, with no talk of "righting a wrong" by those who took possession by imperialist force of arms, followed by mass rape, enslavement, plunder and theft.
In the west we never mention that, we suck that up as a irrevocable fact of history. And yet you get worked up about a chicken?
(edited 8 years ago)
Honestly what a vacuous load of muppets. Anything to create a fuss about. After the Rhodes nonsense i suppose it was only a matter of time but if this is genuinely the best use of their time then i am speechless as to the supposed quality of the university
Quick Reply
Related discussions
- Can I get into Cambridge or Imperial engineering without doing well in olympiads?
- University Application - Cambridge, Imperial, UCL, Manchester, Eidngurgh
- Cambridge offers vs acceptances for maths
- Is it over for me? (maths at oxbridge)
- Sport at Oxbridge
- Maths Olympiads Remaining
- Wondering between Oxford and Cambridge for History and Politics
- Cambridge Maths
- Wrong Cambridge College
- BA (Hons) - Law (Jurisprudence) at Oxford only allows choice of 2 optional papers?
- I really don't understand Cambridge applications
- Can I get into engineering with these subjects at A level?
- Cambridge Parents Association
- Am I too dumb to go to Oxbridge?
- Cambridge Archaeology Admissions Assessment
- Imperial college questions
- what are my chances of getting into trinity college, cambridge to study maths?
- Applying to Cambridge Engineering with having given Maths a year early
- Lectures at Cambridge
- LSE rejection (law)
Latest
Trending
Last reply 3 days ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 3 days ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 3 days ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Research Rankings of universities if you add Research Quality & Intensity percentagesLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?Trending
Last reply 3 days ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 3 days ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 3 days ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Research Rankings of universities if you add Research Quality & Intensity percentagesLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?
