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Oxbridge = Inaccessible to most students?

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Pupils in the underrepresented areas are playing against a rigged deck of cards when it comes to applying to Oxbridge.
I like David Lammy's suggestion that only those areas of the UK that seem to be successful in sending children to Oxbridge (Hertfordshire, Bucks etc) should contribute to their funding through taxes.
Let us not forget that 20% of Labour MPs went to Oxbridge. Shameful.

Also nearly 15% of the Red Menace were privately educated.

Accurate data on Labour MPs who send their children to private school are not easily available.


https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-qa-how-posh-is-parliament
Original post by J-SP
That could compound the problem.

Why would you let in more people from low wealth counties if you are going to get less income from them via a tax? You’d purposely target high wealth counties/regions to ensure you got more money as a university.


They already do that. The problem is here already and isn't waiting in the wings.
Only a tiny proportion of counties are benefiting from Oxbridge. If we cut the funding from counties like Teeside, Merseyside, the whole of Wales and all the other places the education system discriminates against, it would decimate Oxbridge funding and they'd have no choice other than to sharpen up their act.

And for those people who say it should all be on merit, I agree. The bright kids from the North have been discriminated against for years. This would put a stop to that.
Original post by AnaBaptist
They already do that. The problem is here already and isn't waiting in the wings.
Only a tiny proportion of counties are benefiting from Oxbridge. If we cut the funding from counties like Teeside, Merseyside, the whole of Wales and all the other places the education system discriminates against, it would decimate Oxbridge funding and they'd have no choice other than to sharpen up their act.

And for those people who say it should all be on merit, I agree. The bright kids from the North have been discriminated against for years. This would put a stop to that.


Universities are primarily funded by student tuition fees so this doesn't apply.

The other source is research funding, which again isn't regionally sourced.

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(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by Doonesbury
Universities are primarily funded by student tuition fees so this doesn't apply.

The other source is research funding, which again isn't regionally sourced.

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They still get about a fifth from the Government. If you cut this to represent the demographic of the Oxbridge intake, they'd feel the pinch.
Original post by AnaBaptist
They still get about a fifth from the Government. If you cut this to represent the demographic of the Oxbridge intake, they'd feel the pinch.


I don't have the number to hand but I expect it's lower for Oxbridge. They have endowments and much higher research income than most universities.
This is not new really.
Original post by Doonesbury
I don't have the number to hand but I expect it's lower for Oxbridge. They have endowments and much higher research income than most universities.


It really doesn't matter what the figure is to be honest. I'm sure they'd throw a few fundraisers to plug the deficit. The fact is that it would be a very powerful message to Oxbridge that they cannot continue to discriminate against certain applicants.

I know there will be a lot of resistance to what David Lammy has said, on this board and further afield because it is in the interest of a lot of people to keep the status quo, but we need to keep the conversation about this going as long as possible because it is a national disgrace.
Why is everyone so fixated on just Oxford and Cambridge?
Original post by nexttime
I wonder if Manchester mainly gets its students from the North West?


It is only for one subject, but this map indicates your suspicions are likely to be correct:

http://www.cs.manchester.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/international-students/students-map/

You can zoom in.


That's what Durham aspires to be...
Original post by Good bloke
It is only for one subject, but this map indicates your suspicions are likely to be correct:

http://www.cs.manchester.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/international-students/students-map/

You can zoom in.


There is a page somewhere that shows the geographical coverage for each university... I'll try to dig it out. As you'd expect most are primarily recruiting according to proximity, including Oxbridge.
Original post by black1blade
Why is everyone so fixated on just Oxford and Cambridge?


They are seen as a passport to the elite, a glittering career, top jobs in jealously guarded professions, etc. In reality, this is less true than it used to be, but the perception is still strong and it still has a large slice of truth to it.
The geography/proximity argument is probably as much down the wealth of the surrounding areas rather than convenience of travelling to Oxford/Cambridge. It's a bit of a red herring. Kids in Teeside don't apply because their educations are not as well funded as kids in Herts, Bucks, etc. It's no excuse despite what some people may try to say.
Original post by Carbon Dioxide
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41664459
...OK, so I've hardly come up with Fermat's Last Theorem there, but according to FOI data acquired by David Lammy (a Labour MP), Oxford and Cambridge are understood to be mostly sending offers to the more well-off regions of England (mostly southern, some northern - about half of ALL offers go to those in London and the south-east). Around 80% of applicants are also understood to be in the top two social classes.

Point of consideration: Is Oxbridge really turning more inaccessible, is this a case of same-old-same-old, or is this just a quirk in the system?


Oxbridge's mentality is that they'll refuse to lower requirements for people in poorer backgrounds; instead they state that the schooling, council and support to those students should be improved in order for them to complete. Given the above reasons why poorer students get lower grades, it's no suprise rich students with better education, support, Oxbridge coaching at some schools etc are more represented.

It isn't only Oxbridge that suffers from this, Imperial, Durham, UCL etc other elite universities are guilty, but their numbers are only slightly better, they too don't lower requirements IIRC.

There's also Medicine. Only half the schools in the U.K. have ever sent off at least one med applicant (as in just submitting an app, not including an offer). The reasons for this are identical, as for Oxbridge.

Essentially, rich families continue to have children that dominate society because of their education and privilege.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by AnaBaptist
The geography/proximity argument is probably as much down the wealth of the surrounding areas rather than convenience of travelling to Oxford/Cambridge. It's a bit of a red herring. Kids in Teeside don't apply because their educations are not as well funded as kids in Herts, Bucks, etc. It's no excuse despite what some people may try to say.


You either believe that for solid reasons and will come up with some evidence to back it up, or you'll just be throwing in an unsupported assertion based on nothing more than supposition in the hope that someone will accept what you say.
Original post by Good bloke
You either believe that for solid reasons and will come up with some evidence to back it up, or you'll just be throwing in an unsupported assertion based on nothing more than supposition in the hope that someone will accept what you say.

It's called having an opinion Good Bloke. To be more precise, having an opinion in the course of a discussion. The last time I checked people were allowed to hold these things I would refer to as opinions, and you refer to as unsupported assertions. Oh, and by the way, nobody has to agree with my opinion, sorry, unsupported assertion...
So the education system in Britain basically consists of 13 years of systematically unequal primary and secondary education, after which we demand the universities undo all of that in just a few years. Sure, Oxbridge need to somehow do more, but we should deal with the problem at its source.
Original post by Tian1Sky
So the education system in Britain basically consists of 13 years of systematically unequal primary and secondary education, after which we demand the universities undo all of that in just a few years. Sure, Oxbridge need to somehow do more, but we should deal with the problem at its source.


I agree. This is why I initially said that some kids are playing against a rigged deck. The problem is people will argue until the cows come home that kids in Merseyside, Teeside, Wales etc, only want to go to their nearest university or that kids in the Home Counties are genetically brighter than Scouse kids, Geordie kids, Welsh kids etc.
I used to think that anyone with the talent, passion for their chosen subject and work ethic could get in. I no longer think so. :frown:

David Lammy was hitting the headlines yesterday about the number of black entrants, but what he really should have been complaining about is the lack of transparency in admissions decisions.
(edited 6 years ago)

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