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Should depression count as a disability?
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Original post by Sabertooth
so the person with a moderate-severe spinal injury who struggles to get out of bed is disabled but a person with severe depression who also struggles isn't?
But you just said:
I'm glad we agree. Coincidentally you also agree with the law in the US
But you just said:
I'm glad we agree. Coincidentally you also agree with the law in the US
Yes, because no matter how hard the physically disabled individual tries, they will not be able to get out of bed any "better". They are at the peril of their body.
I'd argue that a change in mindset (whether internally or externally triggered/motivated) for severely depressed individual would dramatically change their ability to get out of bed (either positively, or negatively).
Maybe what I'm getting at is that depression is relative to the individual suffering, and therefore cannot be objectively classified in the same way that physical injuries/disabilities can.
I lowkey feel a bit sick that I'm able to agree with US law
Original post by Harjot
Yes, because no matter how hard the physically disabled individual tries, they will not be able to get out of bed any "better". They are at the peril of their body.
I'd argue that a change in mindset (whether internally or externally triggered/motivated) for severely depressed individual would dramatically change their ability to get out of bed (either positively, or negatively).
Maybe what I'm getting at is that depression is relative to the individual suffering, and therefore cannot be objectively classified in the same way that physical injuries/disabilities can.
I lowkey feel a bit sick that I'm able to agree with US law
I'd argue that a change in mindset (whether internally or externally triggered/motivated) for severely depressed individual would dramatically change their ability to get out of bed (either positively, or negatively).
Maybe what I'm getting at is that depression is relative to the individual suffering, and therefore cannot be objectively classified in the same way that physical injuries/disabilities can.
I lowkey feel a bit sick that I'm able to agree with US law
I didn't say a paralyzed person, I said someone with a moderate to severe spinal injury. It can take years to get back to full, or good, mobility and years of struggling. But they can get there - are they therefore not disabled? And on days when they can find the mental determination to pull up and out are they not disabled? Watch that episode of king of the hill called "cotton's plot" to see what I mean.
You do realize that depression isn't just "in the mind" right? There are probably neurotransmitters involved and structural changes of the brain take place. Why do so many people have this attitude that every organ of the body can get sick and require medical intervention but if the brain gets sick people can think their way out? Why is it such a hard idea to accept that some changes in the brain are beyond a person's control?
Original post by kokola9000
What do you think? I've heard many people say it should be... although many employers wouldn't recognize it. Should it be petitioned or passed laws for to declare mental illness as disability? Or what other courses of actions exist in your opinion?
OF COURSE NOT! I have had severe depression for 5 years now, it will always be there, just we need to learn how to cope, I know other people who claim depression use it as a excuse to not go and do something good, I was SEVERELY DEPRESSED, still managed to work late nights and now I am a CEO of multiple companies, still have bad days, but that is life.
I feel like slapping some of these people who feel so sorry for themselves.
Original post by Sabertooth
I didn't say a paralyzed person, I said someone with a moderate to severe spinal injury. It can take years to get back to full, or good, mobility and years of struggling. But they can get there - are they therefore not disabled? And on days when they can find the mental determination to pull up and out are they not disabled? Watch that episode of king of the hill called "cotton's plot" to see what I mean.
You do realize that depression isn't just "in the mind" right? There are probably neurotransmitters involved and structural changes of the brain take place. Why do so many people have this attitude that every organ of the body can get sick and require medical intervention but if the brain gets sick people can think their way out? Why is it such a hard idea to accept that some changes in the brain are beyond a person's control?
You do realize that depression isn't just "in the mind" right? There are probably neurotransmitters involved and structural changes of the brain take place. Why do so many people have this attitude that every organ of the body can get sick and require medical intervention but if the brain gets sick people can think their way out? Why is it such a hard idea to accept that some changes in the brain are beyond a person's control?
I used the wrong word, but my point still stands. Given what you stated, it becomes a mental issue too, and should be dealt with (separately/a different course of action imo) as such. If they are physically recovering, it becomes a temporary disability, but I suppose no discrimination between permanent or temporal is necessary.
Of course I realise it's not just in the mind (however it's just in the brain). But you're painting it as very black or white, since I did not suggest that all a person needs to do is "think their way out". However, it would be foolish to suggest that it is entirely out of their control, neurotransmission is a response/medium that evokes how we feel, and is caused by many factors, but mostly through your observations and learnt responses. If it was entirely out of our control, happiness would also be a "medical" condition.
I'm going to stand by the idea that there are steps that an individual suffering from depression can take on their own accord, either with guidance or by themselves, to make things a lot better for themselves (but maybe not fix them entirely).
Back on topic, I think I've found the point that I'm happy with in this discussion:
Maybe what I'm getting at is that depression is relative to the individual suffering, and therefore cannot be objectively classified in the same way that physical injuries/disabilities can.
Original post by Harjot
Back on topic, I think I've found the point that I'm happy with in this discussion:
Back on topic, I think I've found the point that I'm happy with in this discussion:
Agreed... maybe there should be a different way of classifying mental illness in its own fair way, irrespective of disability...? This is a touchy topic...
This thread really highlights to me why I dislike and should dislike the so-called awareness campaign like “time to talk” and “we all have mental health”
Clinical depression can be as severe as making someone catatonic. They can’t move or speak nevermind go out for a walk or join a club to build their mood and self esteem. Severe depression is very difficult to treat and though there are recommended treatment routes for depression, they have limited success (just less limited than the last thing they tried)
Mental illness is too often reduced in the media. You’re either just like everyone else and just a bit anxious or a bit sad OR you’re a dangerous mental patient or shouldn’t be allowed to work anywhere or have any responsibility 🙄
Mental illness doesn’t need to be classified differently. The way they measure it, when they aren’t trying to shaft people out of benefits, is a good assessment of daily life impact. You’re not deemed disabled unless you’ve had the condition I think it’s at least a year and it is likely to continue for a similar period into the future. A temporary depression or anxiety period won’t get you any benefits or protections from equality act based on disability.
Clinical depression can be as severe as making someone catatonic. They can’t move or speak nevermind go out for a walk or join a club to build their mood and self esteem. Severe depression is very difficult to treat and though there are recommended treatment routes for depression, they have limited success (just less limited than the last thing they tried)
Mental illness is too often reduced in the media. You’re either just like everyone else and just a bit anxious or a bit sad OR you’re a dangerous mental patient or shouldn’t be allowed to work anywhere or have any responsibility 🙄
Mental illness doesn’t need to be classified differently. The way they measure it, when they aren’t trying to shaft people out of benefits, is a good assessment of daily life impact. You’re not deemed disabled unless you’ve had the condition I think it’s at least a year and it is likely to continue for a similar period into the future. A temporary depression or anxiety period won’t get you any benefits or protections from equality act based on disability.
Also depression is a physical illness. Many physical actions the body takes are depressed, speech slows, eyes slow, how you walk slows and the body aches. Among other things. It’s thought to be a survival instinct that is a bit haywire in our modern way of living because our anxieties are different in nature. But anxiety floods your system with adrenaline et al. Depression chemicals can be a good way to rebalance. Depression happens when the system can’t re-stabilise for whatever reason. It’s that that I think we are not sure about. Why sometimes the brain manages to respond and we bounce and other times it begins a spiral. I personally think it’s because the source of stressor remains until the brain has to flood the system with depression signal. But that’s just my own thoughts. In either case, the physical body is still impacted.
Original post by ~Tara~
Also depression is a physical illness. Many physical actions the body takes are depressed, speech slows, eyes slow, how you walk slows and the body aches. Among other things. It’s thought to be a survival instinct that is a bit haywire in our modern way of living because our anxieties are different in nature. But anxiety floods your system with adrenaline et al. Depression chemicals can be a good way to rebalance. Depression happens when the system can’t re-stabilise for whatever reason. It’s that that I think we are not sure about. Why sometimes the brain manages to respond and we bounce and other times it begins a spiral. I personally think it’s because the source of stressor remains until the brain has to flood the system with depression signal. But that’s just my own thoughts. In either case, the physical body is still impacted.
Depression cannot be a physical illness, you're confusing cause, and the response/outcome. Indeed, the physical body can be impacted.
In a physical disability, e.g. paralysis, you can't move your leg because you have physically damaged your nervous system etc.
In a mental illness, you may not be able to move your leg, but there is no physical limitation from stopping you do such.
Original post by ~Tara~
This thread really highlights to me why I dislike and should dislike the so-called awareness campaign like “time to talk” and “we all have mental health”
Clinical depression can be as severe as making someone catatonic. They can’t move or speak nevermind go out for a walk or join a club to build their mood and self esteem. Severe depression is very difficult to treat and though there are recommended treatment routes for depression, they have limited success (just less limited than the last thing they tried)
Mental illness doesn’t need to be classified differently. The way they measure it, when they aren’t trying to shaft people out of benefits, is a good assessment of daily life impact. You’re not deemed disabled unless you’ve had the condition I think it’s at least a year and it is likely to continue for a similar period into the future. A temporary depression or anxiety period won’t get you any benefits or protections from equality act based on disability.
Clinical depression can be as severe as making someone catatonic. They can’t move or speak nevermind go out for a walk or join a club to build their mood and self esteem. Severe depression is very difficult to treat and though there are recommended treatment routes for depression, they have limited success (just less limited than the last thing they tried)
Mental illness doesn’t need to be classified differently. The way they measure it, when they aren’t trying to shaft people out of benefits, is a good assessment of daily life impact. You’re not deemed disabled unless you’ve had the condition I think it’s at least a year and it is likely to continue for a similar period into the future. A temporary depression or anxiety period won’t get you any benefits or protections from equality act based on disability.
Sure.
Measuring daily life impact is a completely different metric, but that could be another way to define disability, I suppose.
The time period is subjective, and the cut-off point for "temporary" is arbitrary and human-defined. On what criteria was 1 year selected as appropriate?
There is also evidence to suggest that those that had an emotionally tougher upbringing are more likely to resolve it faster than an individual from the opposite. This means that diagnosing mental illnesses are also a consequence of circumstantial and environmental factors, and thus cannot be measured objectively, like a physical illness can (you broke your spinal cord => you can't walk, but you've entered severe depression => ?). This is why I at least think that they cannot be measured/treated equally.
I think depression is a very broad name for many different things. Depression, as a whole should not be counted as a disability. It depends on how it effects you, your responses to it and the causes of it.
If it is due to a chemical inbalance which cannot be solved, then it should be recognised. I still would not go as far as to say recognised as a disability, but recognised as a problem. If somebody is confined to their home due to their depression, then it should also be recognised. This severity would also, in my mind, lead to help with benefits and disability aid etc. but not necessarily recognised as a genuine disability.
Where the line is drawn has to be the most common form. People who have depression, without the chemical inbalance from birth who are still able to do normal life things. I'm sounding harsh here, so let me elaborate. Nobody would willingly let themselves to be confined to their homes without a genuine problem, and nobody can prove a chemical inbalance which isn't there. What would worry me if it were classed as a disability would be people saying they have it as an easy way out. I'm not saying anybody does that at this point. I just don't think it would allow for any incentive to help themselves. I've known about 4 or 5 friends who have had depression: 4 of them have said that all the help is awful, but they do not want to get better. They admit they like the attention. I've only had 1 friend who has truly helped themselves and wanted to get better, and she went to the same therapist, same group and said that everything given helped. This may just be my friends, but still, it seems certain people don't want to get better, and I think by giving extra support in that way would not truly help. People need true incentive to get better.
Ps. I am aware incentive would come due to depression not being pleasant, obviously.
If it is due to a chemical inbalance which cannot be solved, then it should be recognised. I still would not go as far as to say recognised as a disability, but recognised as a problem. If somebody is confined to their home due to their depression, then it should also be recognised. This severity would also, in my mind, lead to help with benefits and disability aid etc. but not necessarily recognised as a genuine disability.
Where the line is drawn has to be the most common form. People who have depression, without the chemical inbalance from birth who are still able to do normal life things. I'm sounding harsh here, so let me elaborate. Nobody would willingly let themselves to be confined to their homes without a genuine problem, and nobody can prove a chemical inbalance which isn't there. What would worry me if it were classed as a disability would be people saying they have it as an easy way out. I'm not saying anybody does that at this point. I just don't think it would allow for any incentive to help themselves. I've known about 4 or 5 friends who have had depression: 4 of them have said that all the help is awful, but they do not want to get better. They admit they like the attention. I've only had 1 friend who has truly helped themselves and wanted to get better, and she went to the same therapist, same group and said that everything given helped. This may just be my friends, but still, it seems certain people don't want to get better, and I think by giving extra support in that way would not truly help. People need true incentive to get better.
Ps. I am aware incentive would come due to depression not being pleasant, obviously.
Original post by Harjot
1) I agree that mental health provisioning has a lot of catch up
2) This is not the point of the thread
Sure. But don't we all have to live with e.g. heartbreak for life? Or the grief of a loved one passing?
So everyone who's scarred by the past should receive extra consideration?
2) This is not the point of the thread
Sure. But don't we all have to live with e.g. heartbreak for life? Or the grief of a loved one passing?
So everyone who's scarred by the past should receive extra consideration?
Can't tell if you are intentionally stirring or genuinely not getting it.
You are taking things too simply, I had a relative MURDERED, then whispers about my family because we were from benefit background, lifelong friends removing you from their life.
I also have been victim of sexual and domestic assaults, they scarred me but being male I was told to man up.
Comparing someone who's grandparent who they never met in their life or heard about with someone who was raised by their grandparent and was say the only person who beleived in them and dies in a horrific way would be totally different.
Theres so many scenarios out there scars never heal.
Like breakups there is different stages of grief, depression, denial, acceptance, moving on etc.
How many times does someone get kicked down before they struggle to get back up? Even if they get back up they may never be the same, so never truly heal they can be productive in this sense and lead a full life but never the same person.
Original post by Anonymous
I think depression is a very broad name for many different things. Depression, as a whole should not be counted as a disability. It depends on how it effects you, your responses to it and the causes of it.
If it is due to a chemical inbalance which cannot be solved, then it should be recognised. I still would not go as far as to say recognised as a disability, but recognised as a problem. If somebody is confined to their home due to their depression, then it should also be recognised. This severity would also, in my mind, lead to help with benefits and disability aid etc. but not necessarily recognised as a genuine disability.
Where the line is drawn has to be the most common form. People who have depression, without the chemical inbalance from birth who are still able to do normal life things. I'm sounding harsh here, so let me elaborate. Nobody would willingly let themselves to be confined to their homes without a genuine problem, and nobody can prove a chemical inbalance which isn't there. What would worry me if it were classed as a disability would be people saying they have it as an easy way out. I'm not saying anybody does that at this point. I just don't think it would allow for any incentive to help themselves. I've known about 4 or 5 friends who have had depression: 4 of them have said that all the help is awful, but they do not want to get better. They admit they like the attention. I've only had 1 friend who has truly helped themselves and wanted to get better, and she went to the same therapist, same group and said that everything given helped. This may just be my friends, but still, it seems certain people don't want to get better, and I think by giving extra support in that way would not truly help. People need true incentive to get better.
Ps. I am aware incentive would come due to depression not being pleasant, obviously.
If it is due to a chemical inbalance which cannot be solved, then it should be recognised. I still would not go as far as to say recognised as a disability, but recognised as a problem. If somebody is confined to their home due to their depression, then it should also be recognised. This severity would also, in my mind, lead to help with benefits and disability aid etc. but not necessarily recognised as a genuine disability.
Where the line is drawn has to be the most common form. People who have depression, without the chemical inbalance from birth who are still able to do normal life things. I'm sounding harsh here, so let me elaborate. Nobody would willingly let themselves to be confined to their homes without a genuine problem, and nobody can prove a chemical inbalance which isn't there. What would worry me if it were classed as a disability would be people saying they have it as an easy way out. I'm not saying anybody does that at this point. I just don't think it would allow for any incentive to help themselves. I've known about 4 or 5 friends who have had depression: 4 of them have said that all the help is awful, but they do not want to get better. They admit they like the attention. I've only had 1 friend who has truly helped themselves and wanted to get better, and she went to the same therapist, same group and said that everything given helped. This may just be my friends, but still, it seems certain people don't want to get better, and I think by giving extra support in that way would not truly help. People need true incentive to get better.
Ps. I am aware incentive would come due to depression not being pleasant, obviously.
One thing I would note here is that nobody tests you for a chemical imbalance. It's just how depression is known to work through research. It's like how we know swelling is caused by a build up of fluid, but you don't need that fluid extracted to know it's swelling.
Chemicals are what control all our emotions so when your emotions are imbalanced those chemicals will be too.
Original post by drbluebox
Can't tell if you are intentionally stirring or genuinely not getting it.
You are taking things too simply, I had a relative MURDERED, then whispers about my family because we were from benefit background, lifelong friends removing you from their life.
I also have been victim of sexual and domestic assaults, they scarred me but being male I was told to man up.
Comparing someone who's grandparent who they never met in their life or heard about with someone who was raised by their grandparent and was say the only person who beleived in them and dies in a horrific way would be totally different.
Theres so many scenarios out there scars never heal.
Like breakups there is different stages of grief, depression, denial, acceptance, moving on etc.
How many times does someone get kicked down before they struggle to get back up? Even if they get back up they may never be the same, so never truly heal they can be productive in this sense and lead a full life but never the same person.
You are taking things too simply, I had a relative MURDERED, then whispers about my family because we were from benefit background, lifelong friends removing you from their life.
I also have been victim of sexual and domestic assaults, they scarred me but being male I was told to man up.
Comparing someone who's grandparent who they never met in their life or heard about with someone who was raised by their grandparent and was say the only person who beleived in them and dies in a horrific way would be totally different.
Theres so many scenarios out there scars never heal.
Like breakups there is different stages of grief, depression, denial, acceptance, moving on etc.
How many times does someone get kicked down before they struggle to get back up? Even if they get back up they may never be the same, so never truly heal they can be productive in this sense and lead a full life but never the same person.
I'm not going to go into my background, but I assure you, I get it.
The entire problem with objectifying mental health experiences/illnesses to either side is that they are inherently subjective.
I'm not convinced scarring = disability, if that's the argument you're putting forward.
Original post by kokola9000
What do you think? I've heard many people say it should be... although many employers wouldn't recognize it. Should it be petitioned or passed laws for to declare mental illness as disability? Or what other courses of actions exist in your opinion?
As a lot of people have already said, mental illness counts as a disability under the Equalities Act. A lot of employers are actually sympathetic to employees suffering from mental health problems, especially workplace depression.
One could argue it is a physical illness because the brain is physical and there are often notable changes in the brain. There isn’t a difference between “chemical imbalance” and other causes of depression. We are a series of chemical and electrical responses..when there’s a mental health problem, there’s usually something chemical or electrical going awry. Some even have structural changes.
I honestly don’t see the point of this discussion to be honest other than to minimise the experience of others. You should be aware that the high court demanded the government treat mental and physical illness with the same respect and parity of esteem when conducting their assessments.
I honestly don’t see the point of this discussion to be honest other than to minimise the experience of others. You should be aware that the high court demanded the government treat mental and physical illness with the same respect and parity of esteem when conducting their assessments.
From my personal observations of what depression has done and can do to people, I'd say it would be too general to class it as a disability.
Some who I have helped and talked to, whilst depressed, persevere through it and are able to perform well at school, social encounters and at home - it has little impact other than how they feel whether it be at different periods or constantly. However for others I know of, it prohibits them in many aspects of their life and in some way impairs them.
I think many of them wouldn't want to be labelled 'disabled' because of it either
Some who I have helped and talked to, whilst depressed, persevere through it and are able to perform well at school, social encounters and at home - it has little impact other than how they feel whether it be at different periods or constantly. However for others I know of, it prohibits them in many aspects of their life and in some way impairs them.
I think many of them wouldn't want to be labelled 'disabled' because of it either
I have bipolar and yes, it is a struggle, but I don’t want people to look at me in a different light, or treat me like I’m different. I want people to understand rather than make allowances. One issue is that anyone can claim to use depression and it’s undermining those who do considering the traditional attention seeker status.
The thing is its easy to lie about having mental disabilities but you can't lie about having physical disabilities.
Original post by rickyrossman
The thing is its easy to lie about having mental disabilities but you can't lie about having physical disabilities.
I guess you've never heard of "back pain".
Original post by Sabertooth
I guess you've never heard of "back pain".
Ehh can you class back pain as a 'disability'? It depends on how severe it is.
Original post by rickyrossman
Ehh can you class back pain as a 'disability'? It depends on how severe it is.
I know it's often impossible to prove and yet can lead to a nice fat cheque every month. There's lots of physical disabilities that can be faked.
