Woman wearing a niqab gets angry at gay pride

The Quran doesn’t say go and abuse others. But the way it describes certain people, it encourages them to go and abuse people that god hates. These people aren’t doing the religion any favours. Who’s going to see that and think “wow peaceful religion”. Only someone with intense hate in their heart would **** on people on their happy day. She should be really ashamed of herself and reflect upon her words.

Reply 144

Original post by RogerOxon

What is "strong" about the conclusion?

Do you have, what you consider, better statistics?

Again, what proportion of British Muslims do you think want homosexuality to be illegal? Please consider that what people say in public, and what they will admit to on an anonymous survey can be very different.

Just because you can mess-up your sample doesn't imply that they did.

I like the BBC. Arguments stand on theior own merits, not on the person or organisation that present them.

The allegation of being homophobic.

I don't have better stats. My view is that wider and more diverse survey should be done to produce a better conclusion.

I don't know what proportion of British Muslims think/want homosexuality should/to be illegal. I think there would be a different view when you take a survey across generations, locations, education, socioeconomic classifications etc.

Drawing conclusions from 1,000 people is wrong because it affects a population of more than 1 Million people.

If we assume that there are a million British muslims. The survey took into account only 0.1% of the population and arrived at a statement that they made to be conclusive evidence.

You are an Oxford man, would you be satisfied with such a lazy approach?

If you take a survey that happens to include many EDL/KKK members, you may arrive at a conclusion that a majority of people in the UK or the US are racist. Now, that would be obviously stupid to conclude, but it shows a similarity to what was done for British Muslims.

One of my issues with the survey is that we don't know the participants of the survey or even if they were real. An anonymous survey can include everything from pretenders to real practising muslims.

(edited 4 years ago)

Reply 145

RogerOxon

Original post by Wired_1800

The allegation of being homophobic.

It's hardly a surprise - it's in the Quran.

Original post by Wired_1800

I don't have better stats. My view is that wider and more diverse survey should be done to produce a better conclusion.

How do you know that this survey wasn't "diverse"?

Original post by Wired_1800

I think there would be a different view when you take a survey across generations, locations, education, socioeconomic classifications etc.

Do you know that this survey didn't do that?

Original post by Wired_1800

Drawing conclusions from 1,000 people is wrong because it affects a population of more than 1 Million people.

A well-selected set of participants could produce a reasonably accurate result. I do get the impression that you're rubbishing this survey because you don't like the conclusion, not because you have an issue with its methodolgy.

Original post by Wired_1800

If you take a survey that happens to include many EDL/KKK members, you may arrive at a conclusion that a majority of people in the UK or the US are racist. Now, that would be obviously stupid to conclude, but it shows a similarity to what was done for British Muslims.

Again, do you know that there was an issue with the selection criteria?

Original post by Wired_1800

One of my issues with the survey is that we don't know the participants of the survey or even if they were real. An anonymous survey can include everything from pretenders to real practising muslims.

You really sound desperate to cast doubt on this survey. I haven't looked into exactly how it was performed, but the result doesn't surprise me either.

There is no doubt that many Muslims are homophobic. Exactly what proportion are, in the UK, may be subject to some doubt, but it is worryingly high IMO.

Reply 146

Original post by Wired_1800

Drawing conclusions from 1,000 people is wrong because it affects a population of more than 1 Million people.

I know your lack of education in the area will not allow you to believe me, and I cannot believe you have not been told this before, but a properly selected sample of just 1,068 is statistically all that is needed to draw valid conclusions about a population of 60 million, with 95% confidence that it is accurate to within 3%. Polling orghanisations are generally very competent in getting their samples to be representative.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/mp/sample-size-calculator/

Reply 147

Original post by Good bloke

I know your lack of education in the area will not allow you to believe me, and I cannot believe you have not been told this before, but a properly selected sample of just 1,068 is statistically all that is needed to draw valid conclusions about a population of 60 million, with 95% confidence that it is accurate to within 3%. Polling orghanisations are generally very competent in getting their samples to be representative.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/mp/sample-size-calculator/

I believe you and I know how surveys work. I am arguing against using that approach to make conclusions. Just because that is the case does not mean that we should not question the survey done for British Muslims.

We don't know who were represented in the sample. We are taking it at face value, which is dangerous IMO.

To support this particular survey, I would need to see the contents and the approach used.

Reply 148

Original post by RogerOxon

It's hardly a surprise - it's in the Quran.

How do you know that this survey wasn't "diverse"?

Do you know that this survey didn't do that?

A well-selected set of participants could produce a reasonably accurate result. I do get the impression that you're rubbishing this survey because you don't like the conclusion, not because you have an issue with its methodolgy.

Again, do you know that there was an issue with the selection criteria?

You really sound desperate to cast doubt on this survey. I haven't looked into exactly how it was performed, but the result doesn't surprise me either.

There is no doubt that many Muslims are homophobic. Exactly what proportion are, in the UK, may be subject to some doubt, but it is worryingly high IMO.

I don't know the methodology, but I am not willing to blindly support it like you have done. I have the right to exercise healthy skepticism, as we don't know the source and reason for such a survey.

To me, just because a survey is done does not mean that it shows a true and accurate picture of reality.

Reply 149

Original post by Wired_1800

I am arguing against using that approach to make conclusions. Well, from it we can conclude with a high degree of confidence that a majority of Moslems think homosexuality should be illegal, especially given that their religion tells them to think that, other surveys have said the same thing and TSR co-religionists repeatedly do too.

To support this particular survey, I would need to see the contents and the approach used. Which you would not understand, I suspect, so would not be able to use. Do you ask to see the research when you watch David Atenborough make claims about animals on TV? Or Brian Cox make claims about astronomy? I don't think so.

See my comments in bold above.

Reply 150

Of course we do.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

https://www.icmunlimited.com/historical-polling/icm-muslims-survey-for-channel-4/

Original post by Wired_1800

we don't know the source and reason for such a survey.

Reply 151

RogerOxon

Original post by Wired_1800

I don't know the methodology, but I am not willing to blindly support it like you have done. I have the right to exercise healthy skepticism, as we don't know the source and reason for such a survey.

To me, just because a survey is done does not mean that it shows a true and accurate picture of reality.

The problem is that you have assumed that it's flawed without any evidence. Why have you not looked into it?

Do you apply 'healthy skepticism' to religion?

Surveys are not perfect, but when one, conducted by a professional organisation, shows a significant proportion have an opinion, it's unlikely to be completely wrong. What evidence do you have that it is?

(edited 4 years ago)

Reply 152

Underscore__

Original post by Wired_1800

The allegation of being homophobic.

I don't have better stats. My view is that wider and more diverse survey should be done to produce a better conclusion.

I don't know what proportion of British Muslims think/want homosexuality should/to be illegal. I think there would be a different view when you take a survey across generations, locations, education, socioeconomic classifications etc.

Drawing conclusions from 1,000 people is wrong because it affects a population of more than 1 Million people.

If we assume that there are a million British muslims. The survey took into account only 0.1% of the population and arrived at a statement that they made to be conclusive evidence.

You are an Oxford man, would you be satisfied with such a lazy approach?

If you take a survey that happens to include many EDL/KKK members, you may arrive at a conclusion that a majority of people in the UK or the US are racist. Now, that would be obviously stupid to conclude, but it shows a similarity to what was done for British Muslims.

One of my issues with the survey is that we don't know the participants of the survey or even if they were real. An anonymous survey can include everything from pretenders to real practising muslims.

The problem you're fighting is that survey after survey churns out pretty similar results. Sure, there can be a few bad apples who have extreme opinions but by asking 1000 people you minimise the impact those bad apples have on the overall outcome. You seem to be assuming that the sample is confined to a narrow group of Muslims. In a subsequent post, you talk about scepticism which I agree is healthy, however, I don't see baseless scepticism as being healthy. You have no reason to suspect that the sampling for this survey has been done poorly.

Reply 153

Original post by RogerOxon

The problem is that you have assumed that it's flawed without any evidence. Why have you not looked into?

Do you apply 'healthy skepticism' to religion?

Surveys are not perfect, but when one, conducted by a professional organisation, shows a significant propoertion have an opinion, it's unlikely to be completely wrong. What evidence do you have that it is?

I have tried to look at the source, but struggled to find the supporting documentation.

I apply health skepticism to many things including religion.

I never said it was completely wrong, but if there is an error in the source or methodology then one should question it. For me, I am questioning the sample size. If they surveyed 1000 people to conclude that a majority like Shepherd’s Pie or cake, that would be different to concluding that a majority of British muslims essentially hate homosexuals.

Reply 154

Original post by Wired_1800

I have tried to look at the source, but struggled to find the supporting documentation.

I gave you a link. That link itself has a link where the sampling method is discussed.

Reply 155

Original post by Underscore__

The problem you're fighting is that survey after survey churns out pretty similar results. Sure, there can be a few bad apples who have extreme opinions but by asking 1000 people you minimise the impact those bad apples have on the overall outcome. You seem to be assuming that the sample is confined to a narrow group of Muslims. In a subsequent post, you talk about scepticism which I agree is healthy, however, I don't see baseless scepticism as being healthy. You have no reason to suspect that the sampling for this survey has been done poorly.

The sample size is to small, in my opinion, to arrive at such conclusions.

I reserve the right to not believe its conclusion, if I find an issue with the sample size used. We don't know the methodology, nor do we know the depth/breadth of the individuals asked to complete the survey.

Like I wrote to the other poster, we can take a sample of 1,000 people living in London and take another sample of 1,000 people living in Swindon and arrive at different conclusions on how conservative or liberal British people are. For one, a bias could be the liberal leaning of the Londoners, which is well-established.

Reply 156

Of course we do.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

https://www.icmunlimited.com/historical-polling/icm-muslims-survey-for-channel-4/

Original post by Good bloke

https://www.icmunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Survey-of-Muslims_Sampling-approach.pdf

Here is the sampling approach that they used for their “random” allocation. Don't tell me that you agree with it? It has only 1 city in Wales and Scotland and 0 city in Northern Ireland covered. Also there was strong leaning towards certain parts of England.

Reply 157

Original post by Good bloke

See my comments in bold above.

You don't know me, yet you jump to unnecessary conclusions. I am a healthy skeptic of David Attenborough and Brian Cox. For climate change, I have actually sought supporting documentation from “reputable” sources like IPCC, USGS, UK Agencies and UN Agencies. I tried to read them myself, than blindly following stuff like it is gospel.

Reply 158

Original post by Good bloke

I gave you a link. That link itself has a link where the sampling method is discussed.

Yes, I have seen it.

Reply 159