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    (Original post by BeastOfSyracuse)
    That's pure luck they happened to be on top of massive oil reserves.

    Wait and see how things change after the West develops fusion energy and moves over to electric cars. The Arab oil countries haven't developed a real, productive underlying economy and mostly blow their money on luxuries.

    So within a generation after the West stops needing oil, the Arab oil countries will sink back into poverty as they lack all the underlying necessities (technological innovation, intellectual freedom, etc) for a productive 21st century economy.
    Yes but does lack of development cause these views or do these views cause lack of development? There seems to be an argument that the reason the West is wealthy is because of its values, that's not entirely true though given the economic strength of several countries who do not share many of them (e.g China). As I said I recognise the treatment of homosexuals in Islam like I do in Christianity, but Arabs and Muslims themselves are not barbaric, and neither are Christians, some of them certainly are, but most of them are like that because they just don't have access to the same resources and technology that we do, and that leaves space for radical groups to persuade the population to their polluted views.
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    (Original post by sfaraj)
    good point, but im not an lgbt supporter but nor am i homophobic, personally i just don't care. sure my religion says no but i dont feel affected so i don't take lgbt into consideration. also it depends on how tight your belief is for that controversial topic, if someone was lgbt but not muslim then idk but if they were muslim lgbt then still idk

    i dont think its right to punish lgbt people, its a personal decision and punishments can only be given by god (ik your atheist but yh you get me) if someone if lgbt so leave them, my school has an lgbt society, is full of muslims but i have still not seen any homophobic behaviour so....yh
    I see where you're coming from, but my own view is that people should care even when it involves a matter that doesn't personally affect them. If one person's freedom is abridged that affects everyone's freedom.

    Obviously I think it's a good thing that you have a neutral view on this matter, I just hope that the seed has been planted that down the track you'll consider why any religion would have harsh teachings about LGBT people, and what that implies about the so-called "perfect" nature that religions like Christianity and Islam claim for themselves
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    (Original post by BeastOfSyracuse)
    So we shouldn't say anything at all?

    Actually it does change things. If the Western world agreed with the Islamic world that homosexuality was wrong and should be punished with death, then things would 100% not be likely to change.

    As it is, we can at least embarrass them with their barbarity and many young people in the Islamic world look to the West and see how we don't persecute LGBT. They also see the Western world's freedom for just an ordinary guy and girl to be with each other and to practice normal and healthy heterosexuality

    In comparing the barbarity of the Islamic world's view of sexuality against the West's approach, they can see how wrong it is and attitudes are changed. Over time it is those changing attitudes that will lead to real change
    Lol if you care so much - why don't you travel to those countries and preach your beneficial advice? Instead of bickering on a student forum
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    (Original post by Virgili)
    Yes but does lack of development cause these views or do these views cause lack of development? There seems to be an argument that the reason the West is wealthy is because of its values, that's not entirely true
    I'm not sure I'd agree with that. The West is wealthy because it is technologically and socially advanced (we have both technology, and we have stable democratic societies).

    I'd argue that these two elements are very much related to intellectual freedom. The engine room for technological and social innovation are our universities, and they are able to flourish because of our culture of intellectual freedom. My view is that it is all related.

    If the Islamic world was to adopt a more free mindset and be more open to innovations (and adopt the necessary mindset of permitting freedom of thought), that would flow into both their approach to minorities (sexual, religious, freethinkers etc) and also to their ability to innovate in the technological area
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    (Original post by Virgili)
    Wow

    Alan Turing anybody? Made one of the biggest contributions to UK war effort, was forced to be castrated and then killed himself.
    Is that execution?
    No one is saying that the uk is perfect just we don't go round killing lbgt
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Is that execution?
    No one is saying that the uk is perfect just we don't go round killing lbgt
    I think castration and imprisonment might even be worse, at least they don't have to live with being shamed and thrown out of society. No, legally we might not go around killing them, but assault on lbgt does happen in a lot of areas, particularly not very wealthy ones.
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    (Original post by samina_ay)
    Lol if you care so much - why don't you travel to those countries and preach your beneficial advice? Instead of bickering on a student forum
    I have travelled a number of times to the Middle East. I've been to the UAE, Israel, Jordan, Egypt and Turkey.

    As for propounding my views, I am capable of doing so over the internet to likeminded people in those countries.

    As you well know, if I travelled there to promote freedom my life would be at risk. It is fascinating that you seem to be almost gleefui when you consider violence against me. You seem genuinely happy thinking about the threat of violence preventing me from discussing this kind of thing in those countries. But I guess that is not unusual; freethinkers, atheists and LGBTs being told they will be killed for it and therefore to sit down and shut up is par for the course with such extremists, isn't it?
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    (Original post by Virgili)
    I think castration and imprisonment might even be worse, at least they don't have to live with being shamed and thrown out of society. No, legally we might not go around killing them, but assault on lbgt does happen in a lot of areas, particularly not very wealthy ones.
    I've been assaulted in the past that is a lot better than being murdered
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    (Original post by BeastOfSyracuse)
    I'm not sure I'd agree with that. The West is wealthy because it is technologically and socially advanced (we have both technology, and we have stable democratic societies).

    I'd argue that these two elements are very much related to intellectual freedom. The engine room for technological and social innovation are our universities, and they are able to flourish because of our culture of intellectual freedom. My view is that it is all related.

    If the Islamic world was to adopt a more free mindset and be more open to innovations (and adopt the necessary mindset of permitting freedom of thought), that would flow into both their approach to minorities (sexual, religious, freethinkers etc) and also to their ability to innovate in the technological area
    The West was rich before it adopted the liberal reforms after WW2, just look at old buildings from feudal times you don't make those palaces without an abundance of wealth, certainly it was limited to a small minority of the population but many Arab countries have just been incredibly unlucky in their climates resources / skills etc. I don't think liberty is synonymous with wealth personally, I think those changes of attitude come from having the right kind of education.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    I've been assaulted in the past that is a lot better than being murdered
    I'd wager a bet executions are less painful than being stabbed in a bar by a homophobic man to be honest.
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    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6956761.html

    ^ Finally an limelight about a Christian person regarding gay people.
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    (Original post by BeastOfSyracuse)
    I see where you're coming from, but my own view is that people should care even when it involves a matter that doesn't personally affect them. If one person's freedom is abridged that affects everyone's freedom.

    Obviously I think it's a good thing that you have a neutral view on this matter, I just hope that the seed has been planted that down the track you'll consider why any religion would have harsh teachings about LGBT people, and what that implies about the so-called "perfect" nature that religions like Christianity and Islam claim for themselves
    religion and homosexuality is a complex topic, catholics accept homosexuals but not sexual acts, evagelicals believe homosexuality is a sin, liberal protestant accepts it all as they think the bible needs to be reinterpreted. some mulsims are against homosexuality some are for because they believe god loves everyone equally.

    i mean if yoou were to ask my religious opinion i would be obliged to same i disagree with homosexuals, but morally, 3 words: i dont care. religion has guidelines that we need to follow or use as a pathway to the right way, but i'm not homosexual as you said im neutral so id like to think that even tho the teachings are for all muslims, it's not applied to me, even tho it is

    plus fun fact of the dayy, the us has an openly gay imam, just for all those who go " oh islam is homophobic, terrorism, blahblahblah" yh, not everybody follows they same idea, people find loopholes

    i'd like to think i'm a strong believer, but i don't believe in enforcing strong punishments such as deaths to those who don't follow our teachings. I mean if aeuthanasia is putting yourself on a par with God, then killing someone would surely be the same
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    (Original post by Virgili)
    I'd wager a bet executions are less painful than being stabbed in a bar by a homophobic man to be honest.
    Are you seriously trying to justify murder here?
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    (Original post by samina_ay)
    Lol if you care so much - why don't you travel to those countries and preach your beneficial advice? Instead of bickering on a student forum
    OMDDDDDD!!! Savage!:bl:
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    (Original post by Oblivion99)
    OMDDDDDD!!! Savage!:bl:
    this is off topic but your dp is flawless <3<3
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Are you seriously trying to justify murder here?
    Oh if you're going to play the think of the children cards just get lost.

    I never justified murder just pointed out it's not any different to trial by assault / castration / imprisonment and arguably a hanging hurts less than being stabbed
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    (Original post by Virgili)
    The West was rich before it adopted the liberal reforms after WW2, just look at old buildings from feudal times you don't make those palaces without an abundance of wealth
    I'm really relating this culture of freedom of thought back to the enlightenment of the 17th/18th/19th centuries.

    People started to question religion and also to investigate the natural world. Even though religion told them earth was the centre of the universe, and they had other similarly backward explanations for a variety of physical phenomenon, they started to question these explanations.

    The beginnings of physics, chemistry, etc was very much related to this opening of free thought. And it has simply expanded exponentially from there.

    There are still many people in the Islamic world who believe the earth is flat. To start to evolve and develop, you need to question those religious explanations and this will open you up to beginning to investigate the natural world. That in turn develops your science, which leads to technology.

    Another example; look at Singapore. In 1945 it was extremely poor, its people had a standard of living similar to Africa. But since 1945 it has developed and despite having no natural resources, no oil, no gas and very little land, they built up their society. Compare that to countries which are rich in natural resources like Venezuela. While Singapore obviously has progress to make on the political front, they have always been very open in terms of the sciences and they have excellent universities. That is where prosperity begins and it shows that your mindset can matter as much if not more than your natural resources
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    (Original post by sfaraj)
    this is off topic but your dp is flawless <3<3
    Haha, thanks
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    (Original post by sfaraj)
    plus fun fact of the dayy, the us has an openly gay imam, just for all those who go " oh islam is homophobic, terrorism, blahblahblah" yh, not everybody follows they same idea, people find loopholes

    i'd like to think i'm a strong believer, but i don't believe in enforcing strong punishments such as deaths to those who don't follow our teachings. I mean if aeuthanasia is putting yourself on a par with God, then killing someone would surely be the same
    The thing about religion is that it is not static. The believer is free to interpret in different ways. You don't need to stick to the mainstream interpretation that homosexuality is wrong.

    Have you ever looked into the works of Dr Tawfiq Hamid? He has gone back to the Quranic texts and has come up with a new more tolerant interpretation which looks at the actual Arabic texts, and also considers them in light of the historical context to come up with more enlightened interpretations

    http://www.tawfikhamid.com/education.html
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    (Original post by BeastOfSyracuse)
    I'm really relating this culture of freedom of thought back to the enlightenment of the 17th/18th/19th centuries.

    People started to question religion and also to investigate the natural world. Even though religion told them earth was the centre of the universe, and they had other similarly backward explanations for a variety of physical phenomenon, they started to question these explanations.

    The beginnings of physics, chemistry, etc was very much related to this opening of free thought. And it has simply expanded exponentially from there.

    There are still many people in the Islamic world who believe the earth is flat. To start to evolve and develop, you need to question those religious explanations and this will open you up to beginning to investigate the natural world. That in turn develops your science, which leads to technology.
    Idk much about Singapore apart from the fact its government is actually quite authoritiarian in character but let me just deal with this.

    That's actually not a religious explanation, here's a quote from Asmiov:

    "In the early days of civilization, the general feeling was that theearth was flat. This was not because people were stupid, or because theywere intent on believing silly things. They felt it was flat on the basisof sound evidence. It was not just a matter of "That's how it looks," becausethe earth does not look flat. It looks chaotically bumpy, with hills, valleys,ravines, cliffs, and so on.
    Of course there are plains where, over limited areas, the earth's surfacedoes look fairly flat. One of those plains is in the Tigris-Euphrates area,where the first historical civilization (one with writing) developed, thatof the Sumerians.
    Perhaps it was the appearance of the plain that persuaded the cleverSumerians to accept the generalization that the earth was flat; that ifyou somehow evened out all the elevations and depressions, you would beleft with flatness. Contributing to the notion may have been the fact thatstretches of water (ponds and lakes) looked pretty flat on quiet days.
    Another way of looking at it is to ask what is the "curvature" of theearth's surface Over a considerable length, how much does the surface deviate(on the average) from perfect flatness. The flat-earth theory would makeit seem that the surface doesn't deviate from flatness at all, that itscurvature is 0 to the mile.
    Nowadays, of course, we are taught that the flat-earth theory is wrong;that it is all wrong, terribly wrong, absolutely. But it isn't. The curvatureof the earth is nearly 0 per mile, so that although the flat-earth theoryis wrong, it happens to be nearly right. That's why the theory lasted solong"
 
 
 
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