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    (Original post by dbmag9)
    No, but it's been recognised as something left to trained people for the last few thousand years. Also, I'm not religious, but I would rather you didn't use the phrase "these people", given that "these people" does include pretty much my entire family.
    So what?

    Now, you can add most of your family onto the list of people who cut their genitals because God ordered them to do so.

    Also, while I recognise that 'there are worse things' isn't a coherent argument, I think there's still a case to be made for leaving the phrase "child abuse" to things which actually cause serious harm; while circumcision is a completely unnecessary and non-beneficial (except for rare medical needs etc.) thing to do, it's on a completely different level to beating a child, or verbally tormenting them.

    Anyway, I'm off to sleep now. G'night, gays.
    I see it as worse to cut your babies body, than beating, or being verbally abusive. Much much worse. You obviously don't see it that way.

    Anyway, I spent most of today in a heated discussion with a friend over this ... so I'm trying to calm down and relax from it.
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    (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
    Of course I would regard it as abuse! It's even worse ...

    What argument is there for any parent to mutilate some of their child's body?
    Well - playing Devil's Advocate - they may think it looks nicer. They may be persuaded by the studies that suggest there may be some hygeine benefits etc...

    Is it any worse than "mutilating" your child's ears by getting them pierced?
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    (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
    So what?

    Now, you can add most of your family onto the list of people who cut their genitals because God ordered them to do so.

    I see it as worse to cut your babies body, than beating, or being verbally abusive. Much much worse. You obviously don't see it that way.

    Anyway, I spent most of today in a heated discussion with a friend over this ... so I'm trying to calm down and relax from it.
    No, I see beating a baby or verbally abusing a child as much worse than one brief moment of pain which heals within the day and is entirely forgotten for the rest of the individual's life.

    But anyway, I said I'm off to sleep, so off to sleep I shall go.
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    (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
    I see it as worse to cut your babies body, than beating, or being verbally abusive. Much much worse. You obviously don't see it that way.
    I think suggesting circumcision is "much much worse" than systematically beating your baby in such a way that it regularly sustains broken bones etc.. or indeed causes any harm to the baby is not a reasonable argument.
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    (Original post by Ataloss)
    Well - playing Devil's Advocate - they may think it looks nicer. They may be persuaded by the studies that suggest there may be some hygeine benefits etc...
    The first issue refers to the health concerns that are often cited. There have been studies carried out, in the 1970s in Africa, that suggest that people with more tissue have a higher risk of 10-15% of carrying the HIV virus in that tissue. But so what? We have a greater understanding about HIV and we use condoms to protect ourselves against such diseases! But you don't cut it off! Breast cancer (apparently, the second deadliest cancer in the UK!) can certainly be reduced by cutting off girls' breasts irrespective of their consent, particularly those that carry the BRCA1/BRCA2 gene. But we don't do that! That would be an absolute outrage!

    Is it any worse than "mutilating" your child's ears by getting them pierced?
    People should decide whether or not they want to pierce their own bodies.
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    (Original post by Ataloss)
    I think suggesting circumcision is "much much worse" than systematically beating your baby in such a way that it regularly sustains broken bones etc.. or indeed causes any harm to the baby is not a reasonable argument.
    What's the point here?

    Because it is less evil, it becomes less 'child abuse'.

    (Original post by dbmag9)
    No, I see beating a baby or verbally abusing a child as much worse than one brief moment of pain which heals within the day and is entirely forgotten for the rest of the individual's life.

    But anyway, I said I'm off to sleep, so off to sleep I shall go.
    I very often hear this response from "circumcision apologists". They're very quick to throw in the "it doesn't really hurt", "it happens when you're a baby, so you won't remember it" :blah:. But none of these really excuse it. You could extend the argument and cut off other parts of the body with the same justification.

    I have a theory that circumcision (for non-medical reasons) stems from a psychological manifestation of a human aversion to sex & our sexual organs.

    Circumcision is done primarily to dim the sexual experience, and to make it less satisfying. The foreskin has five-times as many nerve endings as the rest of the penis and as such can sense fine-touch (Meissners Corpuscles) but that have been removed. Fine touch is one hell of a sensation. It is feeling of feather or the soft sensation of breath and that sort of thing. I am entirely convinced that this is some deep-rooted aversion to human sexual organs and sex. I could extrapolate but in almost every society there is some disgust in sex and sexual organs on some level. For instance, in the UK we can't use the word f**k. What does that mean? Sexual intercourse! Yet, something that is completely natural and beautiful is made vulgar. People use references to genitalia to offend people, such as "t**t" etc … how can that be anymore offensive than saying "eyes" or "belly-button" and yet people get offended. Masturbation is almost invariably immoral in most cultures. People are expected to wait till marriage, although less today than before. The Catholic Church bans condoms. I think that as long as man his been in existence, he has hated his own body. The Catholic Church goes even further with its neurotic stances on sex and once declared that only one particular sexual intercourse position should be allowed because the others were more pleasurable and therefore less 'natural'. I therefore conclude that circumcision is simply another deeply-psychological form of expressing our aversion to our sexual organs.
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    I think that circumcision is a little bit of an odd one. I think that if there is a genuine consideration for the hygenic benefits, then I agree with the process... but it is a little odd to make decisions like that about children.

    Then again, being liberal as I am, I do not believe parents should be allowed to force any ideologies on their children, let alone physical alterations.

    An example is that I have a microtia (which ataloss might be familiar with), meaning my left ear is totally malformed, and is basically the equivalent of an arm being a stump, I guess... I was given the option of having the operation to change it or not, but decided - despite some obvious disadvantages from a sensory point of view - to keep it as it was, because it is a part of who I am, ultimately...

    Sorry, I crashed the debate :sigh:

    Does anyone else here LOVE Peter Gabriel's Sledgehammer? SO AWESOME :love:
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    Lord H made a very good point about girl's breasts. I haven't read the debate in full, but that's my two cents :p:

    Yawn. Stretch. Various other similar sentiments.
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    I have ten minutes of my childhood remaining. I don't like this.
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    (Original post by Gesar)
    Lord H made a very good point about girl's breasts. I haven't read the debate in full, but that's my two cents :p:

    Yawn. Stretch. Various other similar sentiments.
    I have that song in my head now :hmpf:
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    (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
    ...
    I am completely on your side.
    I don't know about the circumcision on guys (okay, I DO know about it, but I don't have a penis. So I don't know about how it feels), but circumcision on girls is also very bad.. They will definitely feel pain when they will get to have sexual intercourse someday and giving birth to a child will be very ugly for them too...
    I think it's mutilation.

    Now I'm hungry.

    Oh, and Sam: HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
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    (Original post by SuperSam_Fantastiche)
    I have ten minutes of my childhood remaining. I don't like this.
    Happy Birthday
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    Thanksssssssss peoples
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    Happy Birthday, Sam.
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    (Original post by SuperSam_Fantastiche)
    ...
    As promised:

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    (Original post by dbmag9)
    As promised:

    WANT

    (Original post by Laertes)
    Happy Birthday, Sam.
    Thank you
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    (Original post by SuperSam_Fantastiche)
    WANT
    Inorite?

    Now I want to get married just to have an excuse to eat that cake. :p:
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    (Original post by SuperSam_Fantastiche)
    x
    Happy womb escape day!

    (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
    Stuff about circumcision
    There are generally some cases where circumcision is medically necessary - the foreskin can get infected or whatever. While I generally agree with you that it's wrong, I think you are exaggerating the effect it has on people. It clearly does not damage the baby psychologically, because it's not *that* painful and is never remembered. I maintain that it is not a choice that parents should inflict upon babies, but it quite clearly cannot be compared to child abuse in the conventional sense.
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    :tea:
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    Happy birthday Sam!
 
 
 
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