Are nurses jealous of us?

Original post by No Future

That they are

Tbf this is particularly limited to med student HCAs. I've met seveal non med student HCAs who are like this.

To be honest, ther more I study medicine, and the more HCA work I do, the more careful and frankly scared I become about how little I know personally, but also how basic basic hca2 training is. Having done patient clerking - and been ripped apart on them, you realise how skimpy the handover info is; and yet you're expected to care for these patients, in the case of locums like myself - sometimes barely knowing the ward or sent staff, and now it would seem without patient names on handover sheets! Tis a scary place to be. In terms of things going wrong, I'm not religious, but 'subtle is the lord'. Things can go tits up rapidly, and this is important because it's the hca who gets the most patient contact time. Because they're not trained to examine, a patient could be profoundly septic, or moribund, and because it dosn't trigger the mews system, they might toodle away whilst the theraputic window is lost. The more I learn, the more I am convinced that cheaper deskilled workers are not the way forward. Hcas are fantastic, but we need to be given more training.

Reply 103

Original post by dragon500uk

My mum's a nurse and she practically runs the place, it'd all fall apart without them and she always use to say "Behind one doctor is five good nurses".

Ask about whether she has to bleep that lowliest of doctors, the F1 to prescribe fluids, or enemas, or do any number of things. Just as without the nurses the meds would never be given. The point is people work together, it's this holier than thou turn everything into a pissing contest attitude that helps nobody and is at worst obstructive. Next time there's a sickie on the ward, ask whether she sorted them out with her own superpowers, or did she perhaps have to resort to calling a doctor...

Reply 104

GodspeedGehenna

3

I cringe every time I see this thread title on the front page.

Reply 105

Original post by ilickbatteries

Yeah mate, a doctor isn't more qualified than a nurse.

I mean, doctors are only like the only people allowed to prescribe without restriction, and have a wealth of medical knowledge.

it might help your case if you get your facts straight regarding professionals

there is one other group of (human) health professionals that have unrestricted access to prescribing as part of their core curriculum -Dentists ( and of course Vets can prescribe for veterinary practice)

Nurses, Midwives and Pharmacists can become independent prescribers and the restrictions placed on their prescribing primary revolve around prescribing of substitution therapy rather than preventing them for accessing the full range of treatment options in acute care, palliative care and ongoing care.

Reply 106

No Future

Original post by Wangers

To be honest, ther more I study medicine, and the more HCA work I do, the more careful and frankly scared I become about how little I know personally, but also how basic basic hca2 training is. Having done patient clerking - and been ripped apart on them, you realise how skimpy the handover info is; and yet you're expected to care for these patients, in the case of locums like myself - sometimes barely knowing the ward or sent staff, and now it would seem without patient names on handover sheets! Tis a scary place to be. In terms of things going wrong, I'm not religious, but 'subtle is the lord'. Things can go tits up rapidly, and this is important because it's the hca who gets the most patient contact time. Because they're not trained to examine, a patient could be profoundly septic, or moribund, and because it dosn't trigger the mews system, they might toodle away whilst the theraputic window is lost. The more I learn, the more I am convinced that cheaper deskilled workers are not the way forward. Hcas are fantastic, but we need to be given more training.

Sorry, my post should have said "this isn't limited to med student HCAs". I think it sounded like I was criticizing med student HCAs. I am one too.

Yes, it is somewhat scary. I agree with what you have written.

HCAs do need better training and also better staffing levels in some cases.

Reply 107

Original post by No Future

Tbf this isn't particularly limited to med student HCAs. I've met several non med student HCAs who are like this.

it's none med student HCAs that are the problem as med students particularly on integrated courses are exposed the legislative and clinical governance realities of clinical practice early on .

the med student HCA hopefully recognises that there are two limiting factors to what they do - this is a common factor with all HCP students who work as assitsant grades

1. lack of practical experience

2. the uniform they wear and pay grade they are at that time !

Reply 108

No Future

Original post by zippyRN

it's none med student HCAs that are the problem as med students particularly on integrated courses are exposed the legislative and clinical governance realities of clinical practice early on .

the med student HCA hopefully recognises that there are two limiting factors to what they do - this is a common factor with all HCP students who work as assitsant grades

1. lack of practical experience

2. the uniform they wear and pay grade they are at that time !

Yes, this sounds pretty accurate.

But 'lack' of practical experience: well, that depends on the med school. Some med schools teach clinical skills (as well as having placements and patient contact) from first year.

The med student may even be competent to do far more clinical procedures than their role as an HCA requires/allows.

I think I may have misunderstood your first post on med student HCAs?

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 109

digitalis

Original post by No Future

Yes, this sounds pretty accurate.

But 'lack' of practical experience: well, that depends on the med school. Some med schools teach clinical skills (as well as having placements and patient contact) from first year.

The med student may even be competent to do far more clinical procedures than their role as an HCA requires/allows.

I think I may have misunderstood your first post on med student HCAs?

Preclinical 'clinical' medicine =/= clinical year placements. I would be very dubious of any first or second year who claims to be competent at clinical skills at that stage of training. For one, they haven't seen enough pathology to differentiate the normal from the abnormal.

Reply 110

Original post by Wangers

Ask about whether she has to bleep that lowliest of doctors, the F1 to prescribe fluids, or enemas, or do any number of things. Just as without the nurses the meds would never be given. The point is people work together, it's this holier than thou turn everything into a pissing contest attitude that helps nobody and is at worst obstructive. Next time there's a sickie on the ward, ask whether she sorted them out with her own superpowers, or did she perhaps have to resort to calling a doctor...

DO you know why more Nurses aren't independent prescribers ?

Money pure and simple as to mandate it would lead to the role being regraded upwards

i'm not sure why you'd be calling on medical staff for fluids - as this shows poor planning by the team , and enemas etc that really does depend on the organisation as oddly enough I think you'll find that a good few of the list of pGD or symptomatic relief meds are aperients and laxatives .... senna tabs / oral liquid, glycerine supps and micro enemas at my place of work for instance

as for 'sorting sick patients' be careful or one day you might just find that your superior 'i'm the doctor attitude' will come back and bite you ...

Reply 111

Original post by zippyRN

it might help your case if you get your facts straight regarding professionals

there is one other group of (human) health professionals that have unrestricted access to prescribing as part of their core curriculum -Dentists ( and of course Vets can prescribe for veterinary practice)

Nurses, Midwives and Pharmacists can become independent prescribers and the restrictions placed on their prescribing primary revolve around prescribing of substitution therapy rather than preventing them for accessing the full range of treatment options in acute care, palliative care and ongoing care.

I know that Some people appear to be dim. As a dodo, but I hope hcp recruitment will stay within the two legged population....

Reply 112

Helenia

20

Original post by zippyRN

DO you know why more Nurses aren't independent prescribers ?

Money pure and simple as to mandate it would lead to the role being regraded upwards

i'm not sure why you'd be calling on medical staff for fluids - as this shows poor planning by the team , and enemas etc that really does depend on the organisation as oddly enough I think you'll find that a good few of the list of pGD or symptomatic relief meds are aperients and laxatives .... senna tabs / oral liquid, glycerine supps and micro enemas at my place of work for instance

as for 'sorting sick patients' be careful or one day you might just find that your superior 'i'm the doctor attitude' will come back and bite you ...

Especially on weekends, a significant proportion of my bleeps were "can you just write up some IV fluids/enemas?" I've never worked anywhere where the latter are PGDs as far as I'm aware. Yes, the regular team should have done it, but that only makes it more annoying for the poor person on call. Especially when a nurse doesn't seem to understand that I'm not just going to prescribe 8 hourly alternating saline/dex blindly rather than seeing the patient.

The "sick patient" argument will run and run for as long as you are on TSR, we all know you've got a massive chip on your shoulder.

Reply 113

Original post by digitalis

Preclinical 'clinical' medicine =/= clinical year placements. I would be very dubious of any first or second year who claims to be competent at clinical skills at that stage of training. For one, they haven't seen enough pathology to differentiate the normal from the abnormal.

very valid points and it depends what level you are setting the bar at...

any HCP with more than a year or two 's experience should be able to spot 'big sick' from the end of the bed if not the end of the bay ....

Reply 114

Original post by Wangers

I know that Some people appear to be dim. As a dodo, but I hope hcp recruitment will stay within the two legged population....

human health professionals as in health professionals who care for humans ,the majority of Health professionals are homo sapiens , though you have to question that about some of the orthopods ... :wink:

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 115

flying.high

In a way it's true. Nurses do a lot of jobs doctors traditionally did. Nurses perform many examinations and administer drugs regularly. They also tend to see patients more often than doctors in a hospital setting.

I was fairly aware of this before becoming a medical student but in my placements I've never seen nurses being contempt. I've sort of seen doctors leading teams and managing the patients' treatment. Patients' care may be done by ocupational therapists, nurses, physiotherapists etc. but we're the ones who help the patients come a to informed decision about what they want from their care.

And in GP surgeries nurses often do jabs etc. but we take histories, determine correct drugs to give and from what I see nursing students do they seem to be much more competant at their clinical skills than I am. I'm really glad that they're taught well but if I ask them why that is being given do you think they'll know the details of the underlying condition and since medicine isn't always if x happens do y in reality it's the doctor who has to investigate the underlying problem and present a solution to the patient.

That is our niche and that's what I love. The element of problem solving with huge risks yet huge satisfaction.

Reply 116

Original post by zippyRN

DO you know why more Nurses aren't independent prescribers ?

Money pure and simple as to mandate it would lead to the role being regraded upwards

i'm not sure why you'd be calling on medical staff for fluids - as this shows poor planning by the team , and enemas etc that really does depend on the organisation as oddly enough I think you'll find that a good few of the list of pGD or symptomatic relief meds are aperients and laxatives .... senna tabs / oral liquid, glycerine supps and micro enemas at my place of work for instance

as for 'sorting sick patients' be careful or one day you might just find that your superior 'i'm the doctor attitude' will come back and bite you ...

Either you have chosen to, or in this case, veering off topic to nurse practicioner propaganda, you have completly missed the point which was intended as satire.

Reply 117

No Future