Grammar Schools

I still think someone of brilliant intelligence would get in. The cream, if you will. It's better than having purely comprehensives.

Perhaps the grammar school students have something else to offer, something which is not able to be quantified in numbers and figures?

Why do you put so much faith in GCSEs as an indicator of academic success and ability? They are ridiculously easy to train for, and require little to no intelligence/passion to score top grades. Have you ever wondered why (a tiny amount of) universities use it as a last resort to differentiate between top candidates? Perhaps the grammar school students have something else to offer, something which is not able to be quantified in numbers and figures?

It is generally the most competitive (for entry) unis that closely examine GCSE results as a final determiner. The reason why? Apparently, there is a closer correlation between GCSE results and degree outcome!

Not in my experience. The students at my grammar seemed just the same as the top ones in my secondary modern, there wasn't really much between us to be honest. Except for the ones at the very, very top, obviously.

I thought you said secondary moderns weren't comprehensives?

I sincerely doubt it. If they were such a good indicator of degree outcome then all universities would use them - it's not like interviews where substantial amounts of time, manpower and funding are required. The fact that only the most competitive use it clearly demonstrates that they are using it as a last resort, so as to be able to further differentiate between all their straight-A candidates who deliver stellar interviews.

Why do you put so much faith in GCSEs as an indicator of academic success and ability? They are ridiculously easy to train for, and require little to no intelligence/passion to score top grades. Have you ever wondered why (a tiny amount of) universities use it as a last resort to differentiate between top candidates? Perhaps the grammar school students have something else to offer, something which is not able to be quantified in numbers and figures?

Mind you, to be fair, so are A-levels!

As for grammar students 'having something to offer', at my local grammar that seems to be a variety of interesting mental conditions.

The local grammar may beat my comprehensive by 12% when it comes to GCSE...but my school has a 100% better record of not out-putting students who are psycho stalkers!

Have you seen the UCAS application form? Have you seen the individual uni application forms that the most competitive uni's require to be completed?

GCSE grades have to be entered on the forms.

Oxbridge have access to all of the nation's schools' results data. If they have an applicant from a state school whose grades at A level are not quite as good as those from another applicant who comes from a selective or independent school, they will compare the achievement of those students with the rest of their school cohort, whilst closely examining their GCSE results as well. Honestly, I know this to be true because I have been involved in the applications to Oxbridge from the school to which I am connected.

That was my point entirely. The most competitive unis (ie Oxbridge + a few others) use GCSE grades to differentiate. The rest don't. Why is this?

How do you know that they don't? When one sends in their application via UCAS. every university has the details of GCSE's in addition to predicted A level grades.

If they use a 'sifting' process' as those with more applicants than places do, they might very well look at GCSE's to determine which students have the potential to achieve a better degree from their university.

Interestingly, Cambridge is carrying out it's own research (as a result of that already done and published by others) to see for themselves whether the evidence that there is a higher correlation between GCSE's and degree outcome than between A levels and degree outcome applies also to their own students completing their 'tripos' courses.

I shall be very interested to read the results of that research when it is published.

Anecdotal evidence. Solid.

I'm fairly certain that if they used it at least one of the 'lesser' universities would have hinted at this by now.

When is this research going to be finished? Could you post it up when it's done?

I was simply pointing out that ex-pupilsfrom my local grammar school have been arrested for stalking, others have had a complete mental breakdown, others have been done for paedophila. Never heard anything like that about anyone from my comprehensive. Mind you, thats probably because its an all-boys grammar...

I imagine the need for this 'sifting' would be greatest at those unis that are heavily oversubscribed. When you talk of 'lesser' universities it could mean that they have more places than applicants and therefore don't need to invoke further methods of 'shortlisting.'

So - grammar schools produce paedophiles and stalkers, comprehensives don't?