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The I-soc (Islamic Society)
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Evolution isn’t accidents, it a biological response to the practical challenges an organism faces in existence. Are you trying to tell me every being on this earth has always been as complex as it is now? And that Allah made it? Look through a telescope and watch bacteria multiply, feel the cold in your head move through your nostrils. You are witnessing the evolution of an organism, that hasn’t been created by any God, but is reacting to obstacles.
You can then say 'but what created the seed that made this organism in the first place?' Then you can trace it alllll back to the beginning, which is the only place I cant challenge you on and you cant challenge me on, we can only guess. The difference is my guess is based upon logic and reason, yours is on tradition.
You can then say 'but what created the seed that made this organism in the first place?' Then you can trace it alllll back to the beginning, which is the only place I cant challenge you on and you cant challenge me on, we can only guess. The difference is my guess is based upon logic and reason, yours is on tradition.
57. We created you. Will ye then admit the truth ?
58. Have ye seen that which ye emit ?
59. Do ye create it or are We the Creator ?
60. We mete out death among you, and We are not to be outrun,
61. That We may transfigure you and make you what ye know not.
62. And verily ye know the first creation. Why, then, do ye not reflect ?
63. Have ye seen that which ye cultivate ?
64. Is it ye who foster it, or are We the Fosterer ?
65. If We willed, We verily could make it chaff, then would ye cease not to exclaim:
66. Lo! we are laden with debt!
67. Nay, but we are deprived!
68. Have ye observed the water which ye drink ?
69. Is it ye who shed it from the raincloud, or are We the Shedder ?
70. If We willed We verily could make it bitter. Why then, give ye not thanks ?
71. Have ye observed the fire which ye strike out;
72. Was it ye who made the tree thereof to grow, or were We the grower ?
73. We, even We, appointed it a memorial and a comfort for the dwellers in the wilderness.
74. Therefor (O Muhammad), praise the name of thy Lord, the Tremendous.
58. Have ye seen that which ye emit ?
59. Do ye create it or are We the Creator ?
60. We mete out death among you, and We are not to be outrun,
61. That We may transfigure you and make you what ye know not.
62. And verily ye know the first creation. Why, then, do ye not reflect ?
63. Have ye seen that which ye cultivate ?
64. Is it ye who foster it, or are We the Fosterer ?
65. If We willed, We verily could make it chaff, then would ye cease not to exclaim:
66. Lo! we are laden with debt!
67. Nay, but we are deprived!
68. Have ye observed the water which ye drink ?
69. Is it ye who shed it from the raincloud, or are We the Shedder ?
70. If We willed We verily could make it bitter. Why then, give ye not thanks ?
71. Have ye observed the fire which ye strike out;
72. Was it ye who made the tree thereof to grow, or were We the grower ?
73. We, even We, appointed it a memorial and a comfort for the dwellers in the wilderness.
74. Therefor (O Muhammad), praise the name of thy Lord, the Tremendous.
Qur'an Surah Al-Waqi'ah
83. Why, then, when (the soul) cometh up to the throat (of the dying)
84. And ye are at that moment looking
85. - And We are nearer unto him than ye are, but ye see not -
86. Why then, if ye are not in bondage (unto Us),
87. Do ye not force it back, if ye are truthful ?
84. And ye are at that moment looking
85. - And We are nearer unto him than ye are, but ye see not -
86. Why then, if ye are not in bondage (unto Us),
87. Do ye not force it back, if ye are truthful ?
Qur'an Surah Al-Waqi'ah
what is this? You get caught off gaurd so just quote things at me? Your proving my point that religion is a convienient deflector for unawnserable questions.
Why dont you stop hiding behind what your relgion tells you and argue based upon what you think, not what the some Mullah told you to think.
Why dont you stop hiding behind what your relgion tells you and argue based upon what you think, not what the some Mullah told you to think.
Consie
I don’t want to sound rude or offend you, but that sounds like indoctrination to me, the type of unquestionable believe that is beyond argument or challenge. A soothing rhythm is right; you’re reading it for comfort in my opinion. You’ve also shown me the dangers in such unquestionable belief.
All you'd need is to be told the wrong thing by the wrong man who claims to be preaching about Allah and you'd follow it. I want to know why you have such unquestionable belief. You didn’t just sit down and read the Qur'an and believe in it this much, your society has made you believe in it this much. Do you think this is healthy? You’ve proved my point about using religion as a crutch to explain the unexplainable, you came across something you couldn’t explain and so quoted the Qur'an, which is supposed to suffice as an answer. Why do you believe so much? Don’t just tell me because Allah is great, I want to know what society does to make you believe in such a way.
All you'd need is to be told the wrong thing by the wrong man who claims to be preaching about Allah and you'd follow it. I want to know why you have such unquestionable belief. You didn’t just sit down and read the Qur'an and believe in it this much, your society has made you believe in it this much. Do you think this is healthy? You’ve proved my point about using religion as a crutch to explain the unexplainable, you came across something you couldn’t explain and so quoted the Qur'an, which is supposed to suffice as an answer. Why do you believe so much? Don’t just tell me because Allah is great, I want to know what society does to make you believe in such a way.
I just told you, because I don't buy it when some losers come up with a big bang THEORY and tell us this is where you came from, when some losers say that we are descendents of apes. Someone making a random thought, and say hey.... this is right isnt it? Let's make it a theory.. Oh yeah and how about we try to find the similarities between humans and apes and forget ALL the differences and then make it proof that we ARE descendents of apes. And hey, lets add to it more and look at the sky, which we don't know where it came from, with a telescope and say that some lighted dust on the sky used to be somehow two peices of matter that created us... wow.. that is convincing ... really!
EDIT: And where did this matter come from? They don't even know.
And on the other hand, I have Islam which tells me what I just told you above and much more... which will I choose?
Consie
what is this? You get caught off gaurd so just quote things at me? Your proving my point that religion is a convienient deflector for unawnserable questions.
Why dont you stop hiding behind what your relgion tells you and argue based upon what you think, not what the some Mullah told you to think.
Why dont you stop hiding behind what your relgion tells you and argue based upon what you think, not what the some Mullah told you to think.
Did you actually read what I quoted, if you read it properly you might understand what i am trying to point out.
Plus I just told what I think before but you trashed it.
Science, if you had any logic. Id rather struggle all my life empirically testing things, and finding visible signs in nature for our development, than believing that some 'high being' created it for us all live in.
There’s no need to get nasty about this, I’m not a loser and neither are you, keep it civilized. Theories aren’t random thoughts, they're tested repeatedly the demands of the world we live in. We don’t know where the sky came from? The sky isn’t some layer that is around earth which Allah sits on top on. It’s the universe's landscape which we can see. If you look at how atoms work, how atoms split, and how chemicals react with each other, you'd have more understanding of how things unfold than simply saying 'Allah made it that way' that’s laziness.
“I'm not saying science can invariably provide me with the truth about everything. It can’t in many respects, as it is based upon many relatives and few absolutes. I'm saying that its explanations are often more logical and religious ones, and their continual refinement shows progress toward more understanding, the stationary nature of religion in a race of such change means it has some severe limitations in my opinion. I'm also saying that, in my opinion, science is nobler in its endeavour to understand than religion is.”
Are you not listening to what I’m saying? I’m not saying science has all the answers and that everything is says is true, its not. I’m saying its explanations are more logical, and empirically tested, than religious ones that are based entirely upon a lack of reason, they are based upon tradition. Science, like religion, may have a number of limitations, but I believe trying to find answers through science is more sensible than attributing everything to some divine presence nobody has ever seen or experienced.
I also accept that there are things I don’t understand, questions I can’t answer. I don’t fill these gaps in my understanding with religion, I just accept they’re un-answerable, and don’t fill them.
Have you ever wondered that when religious books were written, people didn’t have the answers for very much at all? Now he have answers for much more, which is why religion has taken a back seat in many aspects of certain societies. However, religion is still prevalent in areas we still can’t explain. Why can’t be just accept we can’t explain them yet and not try to fill these gaps with illogical religion?
There’s no need to get nasty about this, I’m not a loser and neither are you, keep it civilized. Theories aren’t random thoughts, they're tested repeatedly the demands of the world we live in. We don’t know where the sky came from? The sky isn’t some layer that is around earth which Allah sits on top on. It’s the universe's landscape which we can see. If you look at how atoms work, how atoms split, and how chemicals react with each other, you'd have more understanding of how things unfold than simply saying 'Allah made it that way' that’s laziness.
“I'm not saying science can invariably provide me with the truth about everything. It can’t in many respects, as it is based upon many relatives and few absolutes. I'm saying that its explanations are often more logical and religious ones, and their continual refinement shows progress toward more understanding, the stationary nature of religion in a race of such change means it has some severe limitations in my opinion. I'm also saying that, in my opinion, science is nobler in its endeavour to understand than religion is.”
Are you not listening to what I’m saying? I’m not saying science has all the answers and that everything is says is true, its not. I’m saying its explanations are more logical, and empirically tested, than religious ones that are based entirely upon a lack of reason, they are based upon tradition. Science, like religion, may have a number of limitations, but I believe trying to find answers through science is more sensible than attributing everything to some divine presence nobody has ever seen or experienced.
I also accept that there are things I don’t understand, questions I can’t answer. I don’t fill these gaps in my understanding with religion, I just accept they’re un-answerable, and don’t fill them.
Have you ever wondered that when religious books were written, people didn’t have the answers for very much at all? Now he have answers for much more, which is why religion has taken a back seat in many aspects of certain societies. However, religion is still prevalent in areas we still can’t explain. Why can’t be just accept we can’t explain them yet and not try to fill these gaps with illogical religion?
The thought of a pulse being created by a bang is beyond me - even with evolution.
Consie
Evolution isn’t accidents, it a biological response to the practical challenges an organism faces in existence. Are you trying to tell me every being on this earth has always been as complex as it is now? And that Allah made it? Look through a telescope and watch bacteria multiply, feel the cold in your head move through your nostrils. You are witnessing the evolution of an organism, that hasn’t been created by any God, but is reacting to obstacles.
You can then say 'but what created the seed that made this organism in the first place?' Then you can trace it alllll back to the beginning, which is the only place I cant challenge you on and you cant challenge me on, we can only guess. The difference is my guess is based upon logic and reason, yours is on tradition.
You can then say 'but what created the seed that made this organism in the first place?' Then you can trace it alllll back to the beginning, which is the only place I cant challenge you on and you cant challenge me on, we can only guess. The difference is my guess is based upon logic and reason, yours is on tradition.
Well your "logic and reason" has come up with chance and apes. Ours is not tradition, it is called faith. The one thing which you don't want to understand.
I have faith in tangibles, peoples trust, for example. Not some wild story about a high being, that co-incidentally looks like a human, who created everything.
Logic and reason? Well, about 70% of their DNA is the same as ours, and their Brain makeup is basically a simpler version of ours. Fossilised bones found of our forefathers have skulls showing evolution from primates. The societies that Apes live in are similar to ours, on a more basic level. Why do you take issue with evolution so much? I know another Muslim who finds it insulting to say he’s descended from animals, and that he is far too superior to have descended from any other animal. That is just arrogance.
The other great thing about science is that empirical testing doesn’t lie, it doesn’t produce bias (disregarding variables). A book that has been around for five thousand years does. I think in those five thousand years there’s been a powerful person who isn’t as committed to this religion as you are, and has seen it as an opportunity to control people, and taken it. It happened in Christianity, and most other Religions, which is why there isn’t a singular interpretation, but thousands, based upon different scriptures that have been excluded/doctored. It’s why Shia’s are killing Sunnis in Iraq right now.
The other great thing about empirical testing is that there is no uncertainty in a knowable; it is not open to interpretation like arcane phrases spoken in a metaphoric manner are.
Logic and reason? Well, about 70% of their DNA is the same as ours, and their Brain makeup is basically a simpler version of ours. Fossilised bones found of our forefathers have skulls showing evolution from primates. The societies that Apes live in are similar to ours, on a more basic level. Why do you take issue with evolution so much? I know another Muslim who finds it insulting to say he’s descended from animals, and that he is far too superior to have descended from any other animal. That is just arrogance.
The other great thing about science is that empirical testing doesn’t lie, it doesn’t produce bias (disregarding variables). A book that has been around for five thousand years does. I think in those five thousand years there’s been a powerful person who isn’t as committed to this religion as you are, and has seen it as an opportunity to control people, and taken it. It happened in Christianity, and most other Religions, which is why there isn’t a singular interpretation, but thousands, based upon different scriptures that have been excluded/doctored. It’s why Shia’s are killing Sunnis in Iraq right now.
The other great thing about empirical testing is that there is no uncertainty in a knowable; it is not open to interpretation like arcane phrases spoken in a metaphoric manner are.
o0MorseyMan0o
I just told you, because I don't buy it when some losers come up with a big bang THEORY and tell us this is where you came from, when some losers say that we are descendents of apes. Someone making a random thought, and say hey.... this is right isnt it? Let's make it a theory.. Oh yeah and how about we try to find the similarities between humans and apes and forget ALL the differences and then make it proof that we ARE descendents of apes. And hey, lets add to it more and look at the sky, which we don't know where it came from, with a telescope and say that some lighted dust on the sky used to be somehow two peices of matter that created us... wow.. that is convincing ... really!
I think I know the answer to this question already...
But do you have any grounding in biology anything further than that of a GCSE level or equivalent?
For example, may I ask why you never find an atheistic biologist who doesn't believe in evolution, even though you find many theistic biologists who do?
Science should be used to prove God, not disprove Him. Many times they have taken verses of the Qur'an and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and proved their Miraculous meanings using science.
See this:
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1.htm
See this:
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1.htm
Can I suggest this website.
http://www.irf.net/irf/download/middle/displaydowncatg.php3
http://www.irf.net/irf/download/middle/displaydowncatg.php3
OK i've had enough TSR today. Salam!
Dude, an ISLAM GUIDE is not going to tell me science disproves god is it? What is the point in believing such bias? The article didn’t really say anything apart from how great Allah is, and then make a tenuous link, with tenuous evidence about science proving the Qur'an is right. It did point out to me that the Qur'an was memorised, and often still is. I don’t care how many times you read it, the natural human brain makes assumptions, paraphrases, and mops meaning. The fact that Mohammad supposedly remembered it immediately shows how it has changed.
If you want proof, read Homer. His poetry was originally orally spoken. These poems have been central to western literature for 1700 hundred years, so people know them well. However, you can pick up 25 different types of Homer, all of whom translate what he said in a different way. Anything that as been passed down through the ages gets morphed (new editions) the fact that the Qur’an was 'memorised' and orally conversed immediately shows it has been morphed, no matter who says it wasn’t.
I'm going to bed now, I'll continue arguing with you tomorrow - its been a great debate, cheers.
If you want proof, read Homer. His poetry was originally orally spoken. These poems have been central to western literature for 1700 hundred years, so people know them well. However, you can pick up 25 different types of Homer, all of whom translate what he said in a different way. Anything that as been passed down through the ages gets morphed (new editions) the fact that the Qur’an was 'memorised' and orally conversed immediately shows it has been morphed, no matter who says it wasn’t.
I'm going to bed now, I'll continue arguing with you tomorrow - its been a great debate, cheers.
o0MorseyMan0o
OK i've had enough TSR today. Salam!
I think you should check this website out.... its very good.
Dr Zakir Naik prooves that the scientific facts prooven today have been mentioned in Quran 1400 years ago. Some very good articles.
Salaam.
Consie
I have faith in tangibles, peoples trust, for example. Not some wild story about a high being, that co-incidentally looks like a human, who created everything.
Wherein lies a problem when it comes to religion and spirituality. It isn't empirical (i.e. Allah (Azzawajall) and His angels and jinn).
Oh and where'd the bit about co-incidentally looks like a human come from?
o0MorseyMan0o
You want to hear a soothing Qur'an recitation? Listen to Rashid's.
Damn straight
The Green Manalishi
Damn straight
‘Man, We did create from a quintessence of clay, then We placed him as a drop of sperm in a place of rest firmly fixed. Then, We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood. Then, of that clot We made a fetus lump. Then, We made out of that lump, bones, and clothed the bones with flesh. Then, We developed out of it, another creature. So blessed be Allah! The best to create. After that, at length you will die. Again on the day of Judgement will you be raised up, and we have made above you seven tracks and we are never unmindful of our creation, and we send down water from the sky according to due measure and We cause if to soak in the soil and we certainly are able to drain it off with ease. With it we grow for you, gardens of date palms, and wine. In them, have you abundant fruit, and of them you eat and have enjoyment. Also, a tree springing out of Mount Sinai, which produce oil and relish for those who use it for food. And in cattle too, you have an instructive example. From within their bodies, We produce milk for you to drink. There are in them besides, numerous other benefit for you of their meat, you eat, and on them as well as in ships you ride. Verily Allah has spoken the truth’.
12. Verily We created man from a product of wet earth;
13. Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging;
14. Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!
15. Then lo! after that ye surely die.
16. Then lo! on the Day of Resurrection ye are raised (again).
17. And We have created above you seven paths, and We are never unmindful of creation.
18. And we send down from the sky water in measure, and We give it lodging in the earth, and lo! We are Able to withdraw it.
19. Then We produce for you therewith gardens of date-palms and grapes, wherein is much fruit for you and whereof ye eat;
20. And a tree that springeth forth from Mount Sinai that groweth oil and relish for the eaters.
21. And lo! in the cattle there is verily a lesson for you. We give you to drink of that which is in their bellies, and many uses have ye in them, and of them do ye eat;
22. And on them and on the ship ye are carried.
13. Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging;
14. Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!
15. Then lo! after that ye surely die.
16. Then lo! on the Day of Resurrection ye are raised (again).
17. And We have created above you seven paths, and We are never unmindful of creation.
18. And we send down from the sky water in measure, and We give it lodging in the earth, and lo! We are Able to withdraw it.
19. Then We produce for you therewith gardens of date-palms and grapes, wherein is much fruit for you and whereof ye eat;
20. And a tree that springeth forth from Mount Sinai that groweth oil and relish for the eaters.
21. And lo! in the cattle there is verily a lesson for you. We give you to drink of that which is in their bellies, and many uses have ye in them, and of them do ye eat;
22. And on them and on the ship ye are carried.
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