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    (Original post by yawn)
    I have often wondered why some Irish people say 'I have a black heart and I'm proud!'
    Actually, it's "black protestants".
    Then I found out that the Irish were sent to the West Indies in slavery by the British as a penal sentence. Because they were not 'life long' slaves and would eventually be freed they were treated far more harshly than the black slaves who had to be kep well fed etc. because they were slaves for as long as they lived.
    It was common throughout the British Isles: the term was "indentured servant", they had rights slaves did not. Not many were sent to the West Indies- they died too quickly there- most went to the american continent. One of the reasons Australia was settled was to find somewhere to send convictts after America was lost.

    The Irish, after serving their time as slaves went to live in the US and this is when the 'anti-Irish' attitude came about. However, it was short lived and now Irish-Americans are in positions of authority and held in high esteem. Most Americans seek out some trace of Irish ancestry.
    Many of the early Americal settlers were Ulster prods, who thought the government in Ireland too tolerant of paists. The RC Irish only began to go to the USA in large numbers after 1800, especially after the potato famine. They were regarded with hatred and contempt by the earlier immigrants and- of course- found cause to hate and despise others- blacks, jews, slavs, other Europeans, the Chinese- as quickly as they could. A similar phenomenon took place in the UK. Irish people took up racism eagerly to identify themselves as "native" against oles, West Indians and Asians.

    Regarding British cartoons in the old 'Punch' - this is much more a case of mocking one's enemies to make them seem less of a threat. Punch has taken this line with all of Britains political enemies - it is not restricted to the Irish.
    At the time, Ireland was in the same United Kingdom. It was a deliberate characterisation of "the Irish", not Ireland. see Roy Foster's Paddy abnd Mister Punch for more les.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Most Americans seek out some trace of Irish ancestry.
    I doubt that.
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    <<Many of the early Americal settlers were Ulster prods, who thought the government in Ireland too tolerant of paists.>>


    That wasn't the reason. The reasons were both economic (rent rises) and resentment among Ulster Presbyterians at their exclusion from some of the legal benefits of belonging to the established (Church of Ireland) religion. Don't forget the United Irishmen were largely made up of northern presbyterians.

    Many of those Ulster Presbyterians who emigrated to America in the late eighteenth century played a major part in the revolution.
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    I doubt that.
    I wonder why you doubt that most americans seek out some Irish ancestry? Can you explain please?

    Here is a link, in the meantime for you to be looking at;

    http://www.acs-onweb.de/hd/content/p...ish_americans/
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    Actually, it's "black protestants". It was common throughout the British Isles: the term was "indentured servant", they had rights slaves did not. Not many were sent to the West Indies- they died too quickly there- most went to the american continent. One of the reasons Australia was settled was to find somewhere to send convictts after America was lost.

    Many of the early Americal settlers were Ulster prods, who thought the government in Ireland too tolerant of paists. The RC Irish only began to go to the USA in large numbers after 1800, especially after the potato famine. They were regarded with hatred and contempt by the earlier immigrants and- of course- found cause to hate and despise others- blacks, jews, slavs, other Europeans, the Chinese- as quickly as they could. A similar phenomenon took place in the UK. Irish people took up racism eagerly to identify themselves as "native" against oles, West Indians and Asians.

    At the time, Ireland was in the same United Kingdom. It was a deliberate characterisation of "the Irish", not Ireland. see Roy Foster's Paddy abnd Mister Punch for more les.
    Here's a link to Irish slavery

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/HUMANITY/SLAVES.TXT
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    (Original post by yawn)
    I have often wondered why some Irish people say 'I have a black heart and I'm proud!'

    Then I found out that the Irish were sent to the West Indies in slavery by the British as a penal sentence. Because they were not 'life long' slaves and would eventually be freed they were treated far more harshly than the black slaves who had to be kep well fed etc. because they were slaves for as long as they lived.

    The Irish, after serving their time as slaves went to live in the US and this is when the 'anti-Irish' attitude came about. However, it was short lived and now Irish-Americans are in positions of authority and held in high esteem. Most Americans seek out some trace of Irish ancestry.

    Regarding the British cartoons in the old 'Punch' - this is much more a case of mocking one's enemies to make them seem less of a threat. Punch has taken this line with all of Britains political enemies - it is not restricted to the Irish.
    You're talking about penal colonies. This isn't slavery in the same way that blacks were slaves whereby the status of slavery followed from one generation to another.

    You talk a right crock. Most Irish Americans didn't come to America after being released from Carribean penal colonies; I should imagine very few came to the America in such a manner. What books are you reading? I suggest you change your literary diet.

    The only thing you're really right about is the amount of Americans that "claim" Irish ansestry which is matched only by the number of Americans who claim to have ansesters that were passengers on the Mayflower which suggests rather a lot of ********.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    You're talking about penal colonies. This isn't slavery in the same way that blacks were slaves whereby the status of slavery followed from one generation to another.

    You talk a right crock. Most Irish Americans didn't come to America after being released from Carribean penal colonies; I should imagine very few came to the America in such a manner. What books are you reading? I suggest you change your literary diet.

    The only thing you're really right about is the amount of Americans that "claim" Irish ansestry which is matched only by the number of Americans who claim to have ansesters that were passengers on the Mayflower which suggests rather a lot of ********.
    Have you had a 'look, see' at the link I provided? It is as unbiased as any historical account could be. The Irish who were sent to the West Indies lived an extremely bleak life - sure, they were to spend only 15 - 20 years in slavery but during that time they were very badly treated.

    I don't like to deride the opinions of others in the same fashion as you unless I am absolutely sure of my facts. Are you sure of yours?
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    (Original post by Howard)
    You're talking about penal colonies. This isn't slavery in the same way that blacks were slaves whereby the status of slavery followed from one generation to another.

    You talk a right crock. Most Irish Americans didn't come to America after being released from Carribean penal colonies; I should imagine very few came to the America in such a manner. What books are you reading? I suggest you change your literary diet.

    The only thing you're really right about is the amount of Americans that "claim" Irish ansestry which is matched only by the number of Americans who claim to have ansesters that were passengers on the Mayflower which suggests rather a lot of ********.
    Incidentally, where did I say that MOST Irish Americans went to America from the 'slave' plantations of the West Indies?
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Have you had a 'look, see' at the link I provided? It is as unbiased as any historical account could be. The Irish who were sent to the West Indies lived an extremely bleak life - sure, they were to spend only 15 - 20 years in slavery but during that time they were very badly treated.

    I don't like to deride the opinions of others in the same fashion as you unless I am absolutely sure of my facts. Are you sure of yours?
    I'm not disputing they were sent to penal colonies in the Carribean as others were sent to Australia. I'm not disputing that life was bleak either. All I am saying is that I should have thought the vast majority of Irish ended up in America through mass migration caused by the potato famine etc rather than after having spent 15years on a penal colony.

    I'm also saying that forced labour for a fixed period as punishment for a crime is not the same as slavery.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    I'm not disputing they were sent to penal colonies in the Carribean as others were sent to Australia. I'm not disputing that life was bleak either. All I am saying is that I should have thought the vast majority of Irish ended up in America through mass migration caused by the potato famine etc rather than after having spent 15years on a penal colony.

    I'm also saying that forced labour for a fixed period as punishment for a crime is not the same as slavery.

    It's amazing what one can learn whilst seaching on the internet! This link says so much about the enforced slavery of the Irish to the West Indies and their subsequent migration to America :eek: I now know far more than I did and it's much worse than I thought.

    http://www.kavanaghfamily.com/articl...0030618jfc.htm

    Just shows how much 'whitewashing' has been done in our history - this article is written by an American who has been researching his ancestry. It's very interesting. Makes for uncomfortable reading.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    Incidentally, where did I say that MOST Irish Americans went to America from the 'slave' plantations of the West Indies?
    You didn't. And I'm agreeing with what you didn't say but adding the opinion that so few Irish arrived in this manner as to make it a pretty insignificant topic for discussion; of passing interest only to a few crusty academics in courderoy jackets with patches on their sleeves.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    You didn't. And I'm agreeing with what you didn't say but adding the opinion that so few Irish arrived in this manner as to make it a pretty insignificant topic for discussion; of passing interest only to a few crusty academics in courderoy jackets with patches on their sleeves.

    If you read the 'kavanagh' link you would see that the numbers of Irish who migrated to the US from the West Indies is far more than insignificant.

    How can you agree with something I DIDN'T say?
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    (Original post by yawn)

    How can you agree with something I DIDN'T say?
    I can do anything!
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    (Original post by Howard)
    I can do anything!
    You've been attending self-esteem classes - right?
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    (Original post by yawn)
    It's amazing what one can learn whilst seaching on the internet!
    It's amazing how unreliable internet sources are. If something can only be found on the internet it is usually because it is so unreliable or deranged that it is completely unpublishable.
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    It's amazing how unreliable internet sources are. If something can only be found on the internet it is usually because it is so unreliable or deranged that it is completely unpublishable.
    I'd agree with that 100% Just because something is on a "computer" that's now reason to be "wowed" by it. On the contrary, any fool can publish any rubbish on the net while proclaiming themselves an "expert" A more dangerous source of information I cannot imagine.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    I'd agree with that 100% Just because something is on a "computer" that's now reason to be "wowed" by it. On the contrary, any fool can publish any rubbish on the net while proclaiming themselves an "expert" A more dangerous source of information I cannot imagine.
    So where do you get your sources from - or any of the other debaters here? Why - mostly the written word, whether from a book (that might be reproduced on the internet) or the internet. To say that information on the internet is rubbish - is rubbish!

    All computer-literate companies use the 'highway' for giving of information - I can't believe that anyone would rubbish the internet as a source of information (unless they are antediluvian ) as the information, in the main is reliable. I say 'in the main' because obviously there are small pockets of unreliable information. but these are minute in comparison to the overall.

    Unless of course, it's more a defence because I have come up with facts to corroborate my statements.
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    (Original post by yawn)
    I wonder why you doubt that most americans seek out some Irish ancestry? Can you explain please?

    Here is a link, in the meantime for you to be looking at;

    http://www.acs-onweb.de/hd/content/p...ish_americans/
    even if we completely accept that source, which i wont, it says 40 million.

    considering the population of america is 293 million, that means 13% have or claim to have irish ancestors.

    how, if you'd care to explain, does 13% constitute "most" ?
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    (Original post by technik)
    even if we completely accept that source, which i wont, it says 40 million.

    considering the population of america is 293 million, that means 13% have or claim to have irish ancestors.

    how, if you'd care to explain, does 13% constitute "most" ?
    There's an old saying technik - "There's those who are Irish and there's the rest who want to be Irish".

    Why even most of the recent US presidents claim Irish ancestry - so you're in good company. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by yawn)
    "There's those who are Irish and there's the rest who want to be Irish"
    bit arrogant that one...
 
 
 
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