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Converting to Islam...but I'm white

I'm exploring spirituality and currently covering the topic of Islam. Am I able to enter mosques, being white, even if I partake in the usual ritual of washing feet and wearing no shoes?

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Original post by mathperson
I'm exploring spirituality and currently covering the topic of Islam. Am I able to enter mosques, being white, even if I partake in the usual ritual of washing feet and wearing no shoes?

Alhamdullilah welcome to Islam… Mosque is peaceful place of worship the house of Allah welcome to anyone, you shouldn’t feel regardless of your colour of skin that you wouldn’t feel welcomed. Do your wudu correctly obviously and In Sha Allah you’ve given your Shahhadha and use the opportunity to get closer to Allah read the Holy Quran and any other Islamic Books. Whilst reading your salah.
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by Mohammed_80
Alhamdullilah welcome to Islam… Mosque is peaceful place of worship the house of Allah welcome to anyone, you shouldn’t feel regardless of your colour of skin that you wouldn’t feel welcomed. Do your wudu correctly obviously and In Sha Allah you’ve given your Shahhadha and use the opportunity to get closer to Allah read the Holy Quran and any other Islamic Books. Whilst reading your salah.


Hello my brother thank you for your reply.
Thank you for assuring me that being white is accepted within Islam.
I also love my country, Great Britain. Is this accepted in Islam too or do I have to denounce my country?
Thank you.
Original post by mathperson
Hello my brother thank you for your reply.
Thank you for assuring me that being white is accepted within Islam.
I also love my country, Great Britain. Is this accepted in Islam too or do I have to denounce my country?
Thank you.


No problem. Yeah regardless of race or ethnicity always open and welcome the religion is about peace and eternity full of rewards and blessings.
Original post by mathperson
I'm exploring spirituality and currently covering the topic of Islam. Am I able to enter mosques, being white, even if I partake in the usual ritual of washing feet and wearing no shoes?


mashallah welcome to islam, as you would know islam is for all, the mosque is a holy place where anyone of any race, sex or age is welcomed. learn to do wudu the proper way and have a session of connecting with allah, you are most welcome in islam
Islam has millions of followers of all different racial ancestries, castes, nationalities and wealth levels.

Most islamic faith leaders are very welcoming to converts with many members of their immediate families and congregations keen to assist them getting to know the local community.
There will always be some people who are a bit bossy or have very unpleasant personal beliefs about caste, nationality or politics.
But trust your gut instinct and use your common sense.
Good luck!
Original post by londonmyst
Islam has millions of followers of all different racial ancestries, castes, nationalities and wealth levels.

Most islamic faith leaders are very welcoming to converts with many members of their immediate families and congregations keen to assist them getting to know the local community.
There will always be some people who are a bit bossy or have very unpleasant personal beliefs about caste, nationality or politics.
But trust your gut instinct and use your common sense.
Good luck!

See attached :smile:
Reply 7
Original post by mathperson
I'm exploring spirituality and currently covering the topic of Islam. Am I able to enter mosques, being white, even if I partake in the usual ritual of washing feet and wearing no shoes?


Yes, absolutely. Islaam does not discriminate against any colour as the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said during the middle of the day at the end of the pilgrimage, “O people, your Lord is one and your father Adam is one. There is no favor of an Arab over a foreigner, nor a foreigner over an Arab, and neither white skin over black skin, nor black skin over white skin, except by righteousness. Have I not delivered the message?” They said, “The Messenger of Allah has delivered the message.” [Musnad Aḥmad 23489]
Hi welcome to the religion, I'm also from Britain and I'm Muslim. Yes, you can definitely enter a masjid, please don't be shy to ask questions when you enter and someone will guide you and teach you what you need to know. If you have any more questions don't hesitate to message :smile:
Reply 9
Original post by I7V
Yes, absolutely. Islaam does not discriminate against any colour as the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said during the middle of the day at the end of the pilgrimage, “O people, your Lord is one and your father Adam is one. There is no favor of an Arab over a foreigner, nor a foreigner over an Arab, and neither white skin over black skin, nor black skin over white skin, except by righteousness. Have I not delivered the message?” They said, “The Messenger of Allah has delivered the message.” [Musnad Aḥmad 23489]

That quote is claimed to be from Muhammed's Farewell Sermon, but the earliest records contain no mention of the "black and white" part. They only mention "Arab and non-Arab". It appears to have been an addition in some later versions. It seems unlikely that the racial concept of "black" and "white" was even a thing in 7th century Arabia.
Thought you might be interested that Muhammad probably never said it.
Reply 10
Original post by WADR
That quote is claimed to be from Muhammed's Farewell Sermon, but the earliest records contain no mention of the "black and white" part. They only mention "Arab and non-Arab". It appears to have been an addition in some later versions. It seems unlikely that the racial concept of "black" and "white" was even a thing in 7th century Arabia.
Thought you might be interested that Muhammad probably never said it.

There are different chains of narration that go up to the Prophet and this one was recorded in the Musnad of Imaam Ahmad which was not a 'later version'. I don't understand what you mean that it is unlikely that the racial concept of black and white existed in 7th century Arabia, they frequently interacted with Abyssinians who were black.
Reply 11
Original post by I7V
There are different chains of narration that go up to the Prophet and this one was recorded in the Musnad of Imaam Ahmad which was not a 'later version'. I don't understand what you mean that it is unlikely that the racial concept of black and white existed in 7th century Arabia, they frequently interacted with Abyssinians who were black.

Musnad Ahmad was written nearly a quarter of a century after the events.
Arabs are not "white" in that racial context.
Muhammad used the expression "head like a raisin" to describe Abyssinians (which would be frowned upon today).

I'm not going to debate the issue. Just pointing out a few facts.
Reply 12
Original post by WADR
Musnad Ahmad was written nearly a quarter of a century after the events.
Arabs are not "white" in that racial context.
Muhammad used the expression "head like a raisin" to describe Abyssinians (which would be frowned upon today).

I'm not going to debate the issue. Just pointing out a few facts.


1. His Musnad was an early collection of hadeeth, not many have survived which were before it. I haven't found a wording of this hadeeth which has no mention of black and white which precedes the Musnad. Even if there is one, it is not an evidence that it is a later addition - it may be that the later Hadith had more reliable narrators. The quality of the hadeeth doesn't lie in the conciseness of the chain, rather it is in the reliability of the narrators.

2. The word 'ahmar' is used, which literally means red. In Siyar A’laam Al Nubalaa, Chapter 2, page 168, Imaam adh-Dhahabi (died 1348CE) said:
“Red, in the dialect of the Arabs means a pale white complexion and it was a colour that was rare amongst them.”
الحمراء ، في خطاب أهل الحجاز : هي البيضاء بشقرة ، وهذا نادر فيهم

He then went on to explaining why and gave an example quoting the part of a long hadith which can be found in Bukhari Book of Oaths
حَدَّثَنِي أَبُو الرَّبِيعِ الْعَتَكِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادٌ، يَعْنِي ابْنَ زَيْدٍ عَنْ أَيُّوبَ، عَنْ أَبِي، قِلاَبَةَ وَعَنِ الْقَاسِمِ بْنِ عَاصِمٍ، عَنْ زَهْدَمٍ الْجَرْمِيِّ، قَالَ أَيُّوبُ وَأَنَا لِحَدِيثِ الْقَاسِمِ، أَحْفَظُ مِنِّي لِحَدِيثِ أَبِي قِلاَبَةَ قَالَ كُنَّا عِنْدَ أَبِي مُوسَى فَدَعَا بِمَائِدَتِهِ وَعَلَيْهَا لَحْمُ دَجَاجٍ فَدَخَلَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ بَنِي تَيْمِ اللَّهِ أَحْمَرُ شَبِيهٌ بِالْمَوَالِي فَقَالَ لَهُ هَلُمَّ ‏.‏ فَتَلَكَّأَ فَقَالَ هَلُمَّ فَإِنِّي قَدْ رَأَيْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَأْكُلُ مِنْهُ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ الرَّجُلُ إِنِّي رَأَيْتُهُ يَأْكُلُ شَيْئًا فَقَذِرْتُهُ فَحَلَفْتُ أَنْ لاَ أَطْعَمَهُ فَقَالَ هَلُمَّ أُحَدِّثْكَ عَنْ ذَلِكَ إِنِّي أَتَيْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فِي رَهْطٍ مِنَ الأَشْعَرِيِّينَ نَسْتَحْمِلُهُ فَقَالَ ‏”‏ وَاللَّهِ لاَ أَحْمِلُكُمْ وَمَا عِنْدِي مَا أَحْمِلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ ‏”‏ ‏.‏ فَلَبِثْنَا مَا شَاءَ اللَّهُ فَأُتِيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِنَهْبِ إِبِلٍ فَدَعَا بِنَا فَأَمَرَ لَنَا بِخَمْسِ ذَوْدٍ غُرِّ الذُّرَى قَالَ فَلَمَّا انْطَلَقْنَا قَالَ بَعْضُنَا لِبَعْضٍ أَغْفَلْنَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَمِينَهُ لاَ يُبَارَكُ لَنَا ‏.‏ فَرَجَعْنَا إِلَيْهِ فَقُلْنَا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنَّا أَتَيْنَاكَ نَسْتَحْمِلُكَ وَإِنَّكَ حَلَفْتَ أَنْ لاَ تَحْمِلَنَا ثُمَّ حَمَلْتَنَا أَفَنَسِيتَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ قَالَ ‏”‏ إِنِّي وَاللَّهِ إِنْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لاَ أَحْلِفُ عَلَى يَمِينٍ فَأَرَى غَيْرَهَا خَيْرًا مِنْهَا إِلاَّ أَتَيْتُ الَّذِي هُوَ خَيْرٌ وَتَحَلَّلْتُهَا فَانْطَلِقُوا فَإِنَّمَا حَمَلَكُمُ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ ‏”‏ ‏.‏

...A red man as if he is one of the slaves...’’

adh-Dhahabi said the explanation for this is:
”..and from it is the hadeeth that his color is like that of the slaves (mawaali) who were captured from the Christians of Syria and Rome”.
، ومنه في الحديث : رجل أحمر كأنه من الموالي يريد القائل أنه في لون الموالي الذين سبوا من نصارى الشام والروم

3. Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Abyssinian slave whose head looks like a raisin."
I am not strong in the Arabic language so I do not know whether 'ka anna' here indicates that:
a) The Abyssinians themselves are described as having raisin-like heads.
b) This is an extra description, meaning: obey the ruler even if he was an Abyssinian slave and also his head looks like a raisin.
I don't know for sure which of the two is intended so I won't speak of what I have no knowledge about. Even if it was describing them having raisin-like heads, the hadeeth is a command to still listen and obey them like you would any other leader, not to belittle them. It is evident that the Prophet and his companions did not have hatred towards black people merely for their colour as you can see with their relationship with Bilāl ibn Rabāh and other believers who were black (meanings of the ahaadeeth):

Abdullah ibn Muhammad reported: My father and I departed to see our father-in-law from the Ansar, visiting him as he was ill. The time for prayer arrived and he said to some of his relatives, “Young lady, bring me water for ablution that I might prayer and be comforted.” We objected to that from him, but he said, “I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, say: Stand, O Bilal, and comfort us with the prayer. [Sunan Abī Dāwūd 4986]

Abu Huraira reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said to Bilal at the time of dawn prayer, O Bilal, tell me of the most hopeful deed you practiced in Islam. I heard the scuffle of your sandals before me in Paradise.” Bilal said, “The most hopeful deed to me is that I do not perform ablution by day or night but that I pray along with it as much as Allah has decreed me to pray.” [Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 1149, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2458]

Jabir ibn Abdullah reported: Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, used to say, “Abu Bakr is our master and he emancipated our master,” meaning Bilal. [Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 3754]

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, told us about the Negus, the ruler of Abyssinia, on the day he died. The Prophet said to us, Seek forgiveness for your brother.” [Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 1263, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 951]

These are not statements and actions of people who hate people with black skin or Abyssinians. Your argument 'would be frowned upon today' is not a valid argument as many things are frowned upon today that were not back then. Does it make it objectively wrong? Maybe in that context it was a genuine description with no malicious intent and that is what is likely based on their treatment of the Abyssinians. Regardless of all of this, I don't see why you brought it up as the topic at hand was did the concept of black and white exist back then. There is no need to change to topic just to display your opposition to Islaam.
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by mathperson
I'm exploring spirituality and currently covering the topic of Islam. Am I able to enter mosques, being white, even if I partake in the usual ritual of washing feet and wearing no shoes?

salam! of course you can gom and ask as many questions as you have no question is too silly or too obvious. the feeling of being in a mosque is indescribable and inshallah you become a frequent visitor
Reply 14
Original post by I7V
1. His Musnad was an early collection of hadeeth, not many have survived which were before it. I haven't found a wording of this hadeeth which has no mention of black and white which precedes the Musnad. Even if there is one, it is not an evidence that it is a later addition - it may be that the later Hadith had more reliable narrators. The quality of the hadeeth doesn't lie in the conciseness of the chain, rather it is in the reliability of the narrators.

2. The word 'ahmar' is used, which literally means red. In Siyar A’laam Al Nubalaa, Chapter 2, page 168, Imaam adh-Dhahabi (died 1348CE) said:
“Red, in the dialect of the Arabs means a pale white complexion and it was a colour that was rare amongst them.”
الحمراء ، في خطاب أهل الحجاز : هي البيضاء بشقرة ، وهذا نادر فيهم

He then went on to explaining why and gave an example quoting the part of a long hadith which can be found in Bukhari Book of Oaths
حَدَّثَنِي أَبُو الرَّبِيعِ الْعَتَكِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادٌ، يَعْنِي ابْنَ زَيْدٍ عَنْ أَيُّوبَ، عَنْ أَبِي، قِلاَبَةَ وَعَنِ الْقَاسِمِ بْنِ عَاصِمٍ، عَنْ زَهْدَمٍ الْجَرْمِيِّ، قَالَ أَيُّوبُ وَأَنَا لِحَدِيثِ الْقَاسِمِ، أَحْفَظُ مِنِّي لِحَدِيثِ أَبِي قِلاَبَةَ قَالَ كُنَّا عِنْدَ أَبِي مُوسَى فَدَعَا بِمَائِدَتِهِ وَعَلَيْهَا لَحْمُ دَجَاجٍ فَدَخَلَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ بَنِي تَيْمِ اللَّهِ أَحْمَرُ شَبِيهٌ بِالْمَوَالِي فَقَالَ لَهُ هَلُمَّ ‏.‏ فَتَلَكَّأَ فَقَالَ هَلُمَّ فَإِنِّي قَدْ رَأَيْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَأْكُلُ مِنْهُ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ الرَّجُلُ إِنِّي رَأَيْتُهُ يَأْكُلُ شَيْئًا فَقَذِرْتُهُ فَحَلَفْتُ أَنْ لاَ أَطْعَمَهُ فَقَالَ هَلُمَّ أُحَدِّثْكَ عَنْ ذَلِكَ إِنِّي أَتَيْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فِي رَهْطٍ مِنَ الأَشْعَرِيِّينَ نَسْتَحْمِلُهُ فَقَالَ ‏”‏ وَاللَّهِ لاَ أَحْمِلُكُمْ وَمَا عِنْدِي مَا أَحْمِلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ ‏”‏ ‏.‏ فَلَبِثْنَا مَا شَاءَ اللَّهُ فَأُتِيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِنَهْبِ إِبِلٍ فَدَعَا بِنَا فَأَمَرَ لَنَا بِخَمْسِ ذَوْدٍ غُرِّ الذُّرَى قَالَ فَلَمَّا انْطَلَقْنَا قَالَ بَعْضُنَا لِبَعْضٍ أَغْفَلْنَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَمِينَهُ لاَ يُبَارَكُ لَنَا ‏.‏ فَرَجَعْنَا إِلَيْهِ فَقُلْنَا يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ إِنَّا أَتَيْنَاكَ نَسْتَحْمِلُكَ وَإِنَّكَ حَلَفْتَ أَنْ لاَ تَحْمِلَنَا ثُمَّ حَمَلْتَنَا أَفَنَسِيتَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ قَالَ ‏”‏ إِنِّي وَاللَّهِ إِنْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لاَ أَحْلِفُ عَلَى يَمِينٍ فَأَرَى غَيْرَهَا خَيْرًا مِنْهَا إِلاَّ أَتَيْتُ الَّذِي هُوَ خَيْرٌ وَتَحَلَّلْتُهَا فَانْطَلِقُوا فَإِنَّمَا حَمَلَكُمُ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ ‏”‏ ‏.‏

...A red man as if he is one of the slaves...’’

adh-Dhahabi said the explanation for this is:
”..and from it is the hadeeth that his color is like that of the slaves (mawaali) who were captured from the Christians of Syria and Rome”.
، ومنه في الحديث : رجل أحمر كأنه من الموالي يريد القائل أنه في لون الموالي الذين سبوا من نصارى الشام والروم

3. Narrated Anas bin Malik: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "You should listen to and obey, your ruler even if he was an Abyssinian slave whose head looks like a raisin."
I am not strong in the Arabic language so I do not know whether 'ka anna' here indicates that:
a) The Abyssinians themselves are described as having raisin-like heads.
b) This is an extra description, meaning: obey the ruler even if he was an Abyssinian slave and also his head looks like a raisin.
I don't know for sure which of the two is intended so I won't speak of what I have no knowledge about. Even if it was describing them having raisin-like heads, the hadeeth is a command to still listen and obey them like you would any other leader, not to belittle them. It is evident that the Prophet and his companions did not have hatred towards black people merely for their colour as you can see with their relationship with Bilāl ibn Rabāh and other believers who were black (meanings of the ahaadeeth):

Abdullah ibn Muhammad reported: My father and I departed to see our father-in-law from the Ansar, visiting him as he was ill. The time for prayer arrived and he said to some of his relatives, “Young lady, bring me water for ablution that I might prayer and be comforted.” We objected to that from him, but he said, “I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, say: Stand, O Bilal, and comfort us with the prayer. [Sunan Abī Dāwūd 4986]

Abu Huraira reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said to Bilal at the time of dawn prayer, O Bilal, tell me of the most hopeful deed you practiced in Islam. I heard the scuffle of your sandals before me in Paradise.” Bilal said, “The most hopeful deed to me is that I do not perform ablution by day or night but that I pray along with it as much as Allah has decreed me to pray.” [Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 1149, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2458]

Jabir ibn Abdullah reported: Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, used to say, “Abu Bakr is our master and he emancipated our master,” meaning Bilal. [Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 3754]

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, told us about the Negus, the ruler of Abyssinia, on the day he died. The Prophet said to us, Seek forgiveness for your brother.” [Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 1263, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 951]

These are not statements and actions of people who hate people with black skin or Abyssinians. Your argument 'would be frowned upon today' is not a valid argument as many things are frowned upon today that were not back then. Does it make it objectively wrong? Maybe in that context it was a genuine description with no malicious intent and that is what is likely based on their treatment of the Abyssinians. Regardless of all of this, I don't see why you brought it up as the topic at hand was did the concept of black and white exist back then. There is no need to change to topic just to display your opposition to Islaam.

Debate is forbidden in the F&S section.
If you want me to respond, start a thread in the Debate section.
Reply 15
Original post by WADR
Debate is forbidden in the F&S section.
If you want me to respond, start a thread in the Debate section.


I would not like to do that, thanks. I just wanted to correct you as you were the one looking for a debate.
(edited 1 year ago)
Reply 16
Original post by I7V
I would not like to do that, thanks. I just wanted to correct you as you were the one looking for a debate.

By presenting a different position, you have engaged in debate, which is forbidden here.
Should I start the thread for you?
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by WADR
That quote is claimed to be from Muhammed's Farewell Sermon, but the earliest records contain no mention of the "black and white" part. They only mention "Arab and non-Arab". It appears to have been an addition in some later versions. It seems unlikely that the racial concept of "black" and "white" was even a thing in 7th century Arabia.
Thought you might be interested that Muhammad probably never said it.


Original post by WADR
By presenting a different position, you have engaged in debate, which is forbidden here.
Should I start the thread for you?

But you started it? You initially made a statement - which I have quoted above for your benefit - contradicting the other individual's original post. The purpose of their post was simply to assure OP that they would be welcome to join Islam regardless of the colour of their skin or their country of origin, so what was the purpose behind your response post? Regardless of whether the quote is about black and white people or Arab and non-Arab people, their point still stands. It seems to me that you did indeed wish to start a debate. This is not the first time I have seen you posting negatively about Islam either. If you don't like the faith, you don't have to and if you want to engage in debates, you're welcome to (in the relevant forums). But your posts here provided no benefit whatsoever to anyone on this thread, they served only to sow the first seeds of discord. So I would like to respectfully suggest you cease to post things like that on forums such as this, where OP simply wanted reassurance that they would be welcome as a white Muslim convert (which they would). Thank you, and have a good day.
Reply 18
Original post by WADR
By presenting a different position, you have engaged in debate, which is forbidden here.
Should I start the thread for you?


You were the one who initiated the debate by contesting the authenticity of the Hadith. And no, I do not want to continue to debate you.
Reply 19
Original post by spill_the_tea
But you started it? You initially made a statement - which I have quoted above for your benefit - contradicting the other individual's original post. The purpose of their post was simply to assure OP that they would be welcome to join Islam regardless of the colour of their skin or their country of origin, so what was the purpose behind your response post? Regardless of whether the quote is about black and white people or Arab and non-Arab people, their point still stands. It seems to me that you did indeed wish to start a debate. This is not the first time I have seen you posting negatively about Islam either. If you don't like the faith, you don't have to and if you want to engage in debates, you're welcome to (in the relevant forums). But your posts here provided no benefit whatsoever to anyone on this thread, they served only to sow the first seeds of discord. So I would like to respectfully suggest you cease to post things like that on forums such as this, where OP simply wanted reassurance that they would be welcome as a white Muslim convert (which they would). Thank you, and have a good day.


Original post by I7V
You were the one who initiated the debate by contesting the authenticity of the Hadith. And no, I do not want to continue to debate you.

Debate is a back and forth exchange based on difference of opinion/fact/etc.
I merely made an observation. If I respond to a response to my observation it will become a debate.
Ironically, this discussion about whether it is a debate or not has now become a debate.

But your posts here provided no benefit whatsoever to anyone on this thread

That is a matter of opinion. If someone makes a post that is factually incorrect and I correct it, surely there is benefit. But as you correctly pointed out, this is not the place to start a debate, which ironically is what you have just done. However, I will not be drawn into one with you.

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