Desire for net zero referendum growing among public, poll finds

Original post by Fullofsurprises

They leave so much space for charlatans to operate, as we saw in the EU one. Call me Dave was either as thick as only an Etonian can be, or else he actually wanted Leave and knew what would happen. This latter theory has some support, for example in various throwaway remarks he made when a young MP to folks like Chris Mullins, who noted Cameron's hostility to the EU in his Diaries.

Nonetheless, I think referenda are pretty much unavoidable in the case of major constitutional changes, but should only be called to put the final seal of approval, not to act as a cheap and nasty football pitch on which rival teams of liars can have a field day.

Cameron had just come off the back of winning the Scottish Referendum and the 2015 election victory, I genuinely think he was just naive and had lived in London too long. Remember that there are stories of ordinary media workers in the London BBC studio crying during the Brexit results coverage. Crying!

Cameron's views on Europe were essentially to back the status quo. He was known for rolling out John Redwood to his constituents when he wanted to look tough but there's no evidence he wanted to leave. Cameron was not a strong idealogue though. He probably doesn't have the emotional attachment of some of the proper Remoaners.

(edited 1 year ago)

Reply 23

OP

"England recorded its coldest temperature yet this year on Monday night, plummeting to lows of -11.8C (10.7F) at Redesdale in Northumberland."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63893192

The climate brigade are right, clearly the planet is boiling! :rolleyes:

I accept there has been a bit of a man made rise in temperature since the industrial revolution. But calling it a catastrophe or an emergency is unjustified doom mongering in my opinion. How can the planet be boiling when yesterday I had 3 layers on and still freezing when I spent more than a minute outside?

(edited 1 year ago)

Reply 24

Original post by Megacent

"England recorded its coldest temperature yet this year on Monday night, plummeting to lows of -11.8C (10.7F) at Redesdale in Northumberland."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63893192

The climate brigade are right, clearly the planet is boiling! :rolleyes:

I accept there has been a bit of a man made rise in temperature since the industrial revolution. But calling it a catastrophe or an emergency is unjustified doom mongering in my opinion. How can the planet be boiling when yesterday I had 3 layers on and still freezing when I spent more than a minute outside?

Global warming doesn't stop there from being specific days (particularly during the winter) where there are sub-zero temperatures. It just means that such temperatures will occur less frequently because on average each day is getting warmer.

Looking at temperature records from the 1960s and 1980s, -11.8C isn't that impressive. Historically temperatures have been recorded a lot lower, they just don't happen as often anymore. People seem to forget that these temperatures were once considered quite normal. Unless global warming is reversed or stops, we'll probably reach a day where people think that -5C is impressive and say stuff like 'How can we have global warming when it was -5C yesterday?'.

Reply 25

username5854274

15

Original post by Megacent

"England recorded its coldest temperature yet this year on Monday night, plummeting to lows of -11.8C (10.7F) at Redesdale in Northumberland."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63893192

The climate brigade are right, clearly the planet is boiling! :rolleyes:

I accept there has been a bit of a man made rise in temperature since the industrial revolution. But calling it a catastrophe or an emergency is unjustified doom mongering in my opinion. How can the planet be boiling when yesterday I had 3 layers on and still freezing when I spent more than a minute outside?

You are mixing up weather and climate.

(edited 1 year ago)

Reply 26

DSilva

12

Original post by Megacent

"England recorded its coldest temperature yet this year on Monday night, plummeting to lows of -11.8C (10.7F) at Redesdale in Northumberland."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63893192

The climate brigade are right, clearly the planet is boiling! :rolleyes:

I accept there has been a bit of a man made rise in temperature since the industrial revolution. But calling it a catastrophe or an emergency is unjustified doom mongering in my opinion. How can the planet be boiling when yesterday I had 3 layers on and still freezing when I spent more than a minute outside?

Ah the 'it was cold yesterday so there's no such thing as global warming' brigade.

Look at the global trends and averages, which show a consistent increase in temperature over the years rather than picking one isolated day and claiming it's all a hoax or overblown.

No one has ever said global warming means there will never be another cold day. Nor does a single cold day or even group of cold days provide any evidence to your assertation.

(edited 1 year ago)

Reply 27

While I'm no fan of the Great fan club and their belief that the world will end with global warming (outside a few African states, no it won't, humans already live happily in climate zones that are not optimum) I can say that as a member of a climate forum for over a decade and somebody who understands the concept of a mean, the fact that we are having a cold December does not negate the fact that the prior eleven months of the year have been mild or that the globe as a whole is warming.

A warmer average climate does not mean we will see no more cold or snow, it simply means that the long term mean is warmer. Indeed the same thing causing the colder start to winter (feedbacks from an embedded third year Nina pattern and -PDO) are likely to cause an elastic band impact and generate a warmer than average late winter, we are just seeing an especially amplified exame.

Moral of the story - Yes Greta and co are nuts and want to tax us to the death in the name of the climate but no, there's no real evidence that the global climate including that of the UK is not warming over the medium to longer term.

Reply 28

OP

Original post by Crazed cat lady

You are mixing up weather and climate.

I'm not denying climate change. I've done my own research and I agree the data shows a rise in temperature since the industrial revolution and that it's almost certainly man made. I don't think it's nearly as bad as the doom mongers say though. I think the narrative about a "climate catastrophe" is just an excuse being used to try and take away our freedoms. They are talking about carbon wallets in the Netherlands, so you might go into a shop one day and told you're not allowed to buy that steak because you've used up all your carbon credits yesterday. And Stanley Johnson recently let slip that he thinks there is some kind of "national plan" in the UK where people will be told they aren't allowed to get on a plane. So while I accept there has been some man made temperature rise, I don't think it's nearly as bad as they say and I think there is a rather more sinister agenda behind the narrative.

Reply 29

Original post by Megacent

I'm not denying climate change. I've done my own research and I agree the data shows a rise in temperature since the industrial revolution and that it's almost certainly man made. I don't think it's nearly as bad as the doom mongers say though.

Why not? This summer was the hottest year since 1911 and the conditions were absolutely awful. All evidence suggests that this will only continue to happen, and indeed would get worse, if global warming isn't stopped and reversed. Why shouldn't we be concerned about that, why shouldn't we try to stop that from happening?

Do you think it's okay for us to see 40C (and rising) temperatures during the summer because we sometimes see -11C temperatures during the winter (and increasingly less often)?

Reply 30

username5854274

15

Original post by Megacent

I'm not denying climate change. I've done my own research and I agree the data shows a rise in temperature since the industrial revolution and that it's almost certainly man made. I don't think it's nearly as bad as the doom mongers say though. I think the narrative about a "climate catastrophe" is just an excuse being used to try and take away our freedoms. They are talking about carbon wallets in the Netherlands, so you might go into a shop one day and told you're not allowed to buy that steak because you've used up all your carbon credits yesterday. And Stanley Johnson recently let slip that he thinks there is some kind of "national plan" in the UK where people will be told they aren't allowed to get on a plane. So while I accept there has been some man made temperature rise, I don't think it's nearly as bad as they say and I think there is a rather more sinister agenda behind the narrative.

Your own research was so superficial that you don't understand basic concepts like the distinction between weather and climate.

Reply 31

OP

Original post by Crazed cat lady

Your own research was so superficial that you don't understand basic concepts like the distinction between weather and climate.

I understand the subject just fine thank you very much. I just find it sad the way people are ridiculed for seeking knowledge these days. The amount of times someone has said to me in a derisive tone "oh I bet you're one of those people who does their own research" is quite depressing. Yes I like to learn about subjects so I can understand them before commenting. Why is that wrong? I just don't get it. It's like we're headed towards some kind of anti intellectual society where people are actually proud of ignorance and ridicule those of us who want to actually research and learn about things. I dread to think what that mentality will mean for society in the long term. How can we expect any kind of scientific progress if everyone is laughed at and ridiculed for doing research? Surely you can see that would be a bad thing, unless of course you think we are at the peak of science and have already "discovered everything"?

Reply 32

OP

Original post by SHallowvale

Why not? This summer was the hottest year since 1911 and the conditions were absolutely awful. All evidence suggests that this will only continue to happen, and indeed would get worse, if global warming isn't stopped and reversed. Why shouldn't we be concerned about that, why shouldn't we try to stop that from happening?

Do you think it's okay for us to see 40C (and rising) temperatures during the summer because we sometimes see -11C temperatures during the winter (and increasingly less often)?

We might have more summers like this one but I think that's about as bad as it gets. I doubt it will get much worse.

It depends what you mean by stop and reverse global warming. There has been some warming caused by our industrial society. I don't think we should increase our emissions, but I don't think we should be trying to "reverse" the warming that happened up until now. The warming that has happened since the industrial revolution has caused a bit of an issue but in my opinion it's nothing major and we don't need to be too concerned about it. Trying to reverse that warming would result in a much lower standard of living than what we are used to now.

Reply 33

Original post by Megacent

We might have more summers like this one but I think that's about as bad as it gets. I doubt it will get much worse.

It depends what you mean by stop and reverse global warming. There has been some warming caused by our industrial society. I don't think we should increase our emissions, but I don't think we should be trying to "reverse" the warming that happened up until now. The warming that has happened since the industrial revolution has caused a bit of an issue but in my opinion it's nothing major and we don't need to be too concerned about it. Trying to reverse that warming would result in a much lower standard of living than what we are used to now.

Theoretically it could. This summer actually wasn't up to much until Mid June and neither July or August were the hottest on record albeit I think it was the second hottest July-August combination.

Reply 34

Original post by Megacent

We might have more summers like this one but I think that's about as bad as it gets. I doubt it will get much worse.

That's just wishful thinking. What reason do you have to think that it won't get worse? Greenhouse gas emmissions show no sign of slowing down, so all evidence suggests that this will get worse. That's why we need to do something about it.

Reply 35

OP

Original post by SHallowvale

Greenhouse gas emmissions show no sign of slowing down, so all evidence suggests that this will get worse. That's why we need to do something about it.

I already said that we shouldn't increase emissions any further. Your claim that things will get worse is based on the assumption that emissions will increase. If they don't, then surely the climate won't get any worse than it is now

We have a lovely and extremely comfortable standard of living these days, all made possible by having an industrial society. Why should we have to make sacrifices to that and lower our standard of living to please Greta and co? I'm not saying the society we have today is perfect, but it's a lot better than life before the industrial revolution. I just don't understand why the climate lot seem to want to shun all that progress and drag us back to some kind of dark ages.

(edited 1 year ago)

Reply 36

Original post by Megacent

I already said that we shouldn't increase emissions any further. Your claim that things will get worse is based on the assumption that emissions will increase. If they don't, then surely the climate won't get any worse than it is now

Correct, but emmissions are continuing to increase and they show no sign of slowing down. Things will get worse if this continues.

Original post by Megacent

We have a lovely and extremely comfortable standard of living these days, all made possible by having an industrial society. Why should we have to make sacrifices to that and lower our standard of living to please Greta and co? I'm not saying the society we have today is perfect, but it's a lot better than life before the industrial revolution. I just don't understand why the climate lot seem to want to shun all that progress and drag us back to some kind of dark ages.

Industrial society, as it is today, is unsustainable. While it does it give us wonderful luxuries, if these luxuries are underpinned by unsustainable processes then we need to do something about it. Either we scrap these luxuries entirely or switch to sustainable ways of having them. It's possible for us to lower our greenhouse emissions while also maintaining these luxuries (e.g. switching from oil and gas to renewable sources of energy). This is what the "climate lot" want, it's what anyone should want.

Reply 37

Original post by SHallowvale

Correct, but emmissions are continuing to increase and they show no sign of slowing down. Things will get worse if this continues.

Industrial society, as it is today, is unsustainable. While it does it give us wonderful luxuries, if these luxuries are underpinned by unsustainable processes then we need to do something about it. Either we scrap these luxuries entirely or switch to sustainable ways of having them. It's possible for us to lower our greenhouse emissions while also maintaining these luxuries (e.g. switching from oil and gas to renewable sources of energy). This is what the "climate lot" want, it's what anyone should want.

Are you sure the rate of growth is not slowing. Large portions of the developed world have started to reduce emissions. Still growing globally of course but it should be slower.

Reply 38