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There should be A*s at A Level
Scroll to see replies
[q1]> I would pick the AAB kid from the inner city school, with the justification that they have a[/q1]
[q1]> greater potential to achieve 1 / 2:1 at university, based on the fact that they've achieved good[/q1]
[q1]> grades with limited resources.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
I don't see any evidence whatsover of that in a sample of nearly a thousand of our students. John
[q1]> greater potential to achieve 1 / 2:1 at university, based on the fact that they've achieved good[/q1]
[q1]> grades with limited resources.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
I don't see any evidence whatsover of that in a sample of nearly a thousand of our students. John
"Ian/Cath Ford" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]> On 17 Jun 2002 16:07:43 GMT, [email protected] (Dr A. N. Walker) wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > The evidence is against you. One of the "study skills" exercises we do with our students, as[/q2]
[q2]> > part of teaching them to write maths properly, is to give them some student solutions to exam[/q2]
[q2]> > questions and invite them to critique and mark them. Given an essay and a list of criteria, they[/q2]
[q2]> > can usually agree on whether the essay is good, bad or indifferent, and they can rank five or[/q2]
[q2]> > six of them in a reasonably consistent order. Given a selection of "trad" maths questions, they[/q2]
[q2]> > really have no idea, even after discussion of where the solutions are right or wrong against the[/q2]
[q2]> > given criteria.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> How many people have done something like this at school then? I ask because it's an excellent[/q1]
[q1]> learning technique (and, Andy, I'm really impressed that unis (or, at least, you) are doing this[/q1]
[q1]> sort of thing).[/q1]
We did this as prep for our GCSE german oral, listening to and marking the candidates on the
specimen tapes. Since then though the nearest we've got is to mark each others mock papers/ class
tests etc...
Peter
[q1]> On 17 Jun 2002 16:07:43 GMT, [email protected] (Dr A. N. Walker) wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > The evidence is against you. One of the "study skills" exercises we do with our students, as[/q2]
[q2]> > part of teaching them to write maths properly, is to give them some student solutions to exam[/q2]
[q2]> > questions and invite them to critique and mark them. Given an essay and a list of criteria, they[/q2]
[q2]> > can usually agree on whether the essay is good, bad or indifferent, and they can rank five or[/q2]
[q2]> > six of them in a reasonably consistent order. Given a selection of "trad" maths questions, they[/q2]
[q2]> > really have no idea, even after discussion of where the solutions are right or wrong against the[/q2]
[q2]> > given criteria.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> How many people have done something like this at school then? I ask because it's an excellent[/q1]
[q1]> learning technique (and, Andy, I'm really impressed that unis (or, at least, you) are doing this[/q1]
[q1]> sort of thing).[/q1]
We did this as prep for our GCSE german oral, listening to and marking the candidates on the
specimen tapes. Since then though the nearest we've got is to mark each others mock papers/ class
tests etc...
Peter
"Ian/Cath Ford" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]> How many people have done something like this at school then? I ask because it's an excellent[/q1]
[q1]> learning technique (and, Andy, I'm really impressed that unis (or, at least, you) are doing this[/q1]
[q1]> sort of thing).[/q1]
I did something similar in the lead-up to A-level English Literature. We were given the a couple of
examination essays that had been turned in over previous years and published by the exam board, and
then we had to pull them apart, point out the weaknesses and grade them.
We were all rather frightened as one essay that most of us had thought quite good had been given a C
grade, but then comforted (in some way at least, if a little confused) as we criticised another
essay, on Hamlet, only to find that it had been given full marks.
Becky
[q1]> How many people have done something like this at school then? I ask because it's an excellent[/q1]
[q1]> learning technique (and, Andy, I'm really impressed that unis (or, at least, you) are doing this[/q1]
[q1]> sort of thing).[/q1]
I did something similar in the lead-up to A-level English Literature. We were given the a couple of
examination essays that had been turned in over previous years and published by the exam board, and
then we had to pull them apart, point out the weaknesses and grade them.
We were all rather frightened as one essay that most of us had thought quite good had been given a C
grade, but then comforted (in some way at least, if a little confused) as we criticised another
essay, on Hamlet, only to find that it had been given full marks.
Becky
[q3]> > > I was going to pick up on this point. How can those of us who don't[/q3]
do
[q3]> > > maths show our flair in other subjects?[/q3]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > The current list of subjects offered at AEA level are[/q2]
[list of AEA subjects cut]
[q1]> I take your point, although it still doesn't entirely solve the problem, I certainly don't do any[/q1]
[q1]> of the subjects on there, and I'm certain I've[/q1]
never
[q1]> heard my school mention AEA's, even if they do allow us to do them.[/q1]
I wasn't trying to make a point by typing the whole list - was just trying to add info to the
discussion. Sorry if it looked otherwise.
As for your school not talking about AEA's I think many schools have steered away from them so far
- largely because we are all still coming to terms with the massive changes made to the whole
post-16 system.
The danger of starting too many new ideas at once is that you split the time too much and get none
of them right.
We haven't offered AEa's this year (for our Year 13) but do intend to offer them next year for our
most able current Year 12. I'm not sure if this is the case in other subjects at our school but it
certainly is for maths (subject to senior management approval!).
Oh and the AEa maths paper is 3 hours long! Just like the old days of long exams which can actually
settle into rather than it being a rushed end of module test!
Steve
do
[q3]> > > maths show our flair in other subjects?[/q3]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > The current list of subjects offered at AEA level are[/q2]
[list of AEA subjects cut]
[q1]> I take your point, although it still doesn't entirely solve the problem, I certainly don't do any[/q1]
[q1]> of the subjects on there, and I'm certain I've[/q1]
never
[q1]> heard my school mention AEA's, even if they do allow us to do them.[/q1]
I wasn't trying to make a point by typing the whole list - was just trying to add info to the
discussion. Sorry if it looked otherwise.
As for your school not talking about AEA's I think many schools have steered away from them so far
- largely because we are all still coming to terms with the massive changes made to the whole
post-16 system.
The danger of starting too many new ideas at once is that you split the time too much and get none
of them right.
We haven't offered AEa's this year (for our Year 13) but do intend to offer them next year for our
most able current Year 12. I'm not sure if this is the case in other subjects at our school but it
certainly is for maths (subject to senior management approval!).
Oh and the AEa maths paper is 3 hours long! Just like the old days of long exams which can actually
settle into rather than it being a rushed end of module test!
Steve
"JHP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
[q1]> What is the problem with subjectivity, exactly? I can tell very quickly whether an essay in my[/q1]
[q1]> topic is excellent or just very good and part of that is because I have spent years reading such[/q1]
[q1]> stuff. Just because I can't explain the exact rules doesn't mean it's arbitrary or personalised[/q1]
[q1]> or such.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> John[/q1]
Maybe if you were just handing the grades out you could tell the difference between an excellent and
a very good essay, but I thought that coursework and exam papers were both marked on a points
system? Could you tell the difference between a 41/50 and a 42/50 essay? If you gave a copy of the
essay to be marked to 100 different teachers, would they all return the same mark?
On the other hand, if you gave a piece of maths work to 100 different teachers, even accounting for
mistakes they might make, they would agree on the marks far more than the English teachers would.
English-type work IMO can't be marked as accurately as maths and science work (from what I've seen
of physics answer papers, even written questions boil down to "did the candidate mention the word
[whatever]?").
I'm not saying that English marking is a wildly innacurate business, I'm just saying that on a
detailed points out of 50 scale it's much harder to get an accurate score, and so if there *were* A*
grades at A-level, then there would be too much importance placed on the accuracy of marking.
Rich
news:<[email protected]>...
[q1]> What is the problem with subjectivity, exactly? I can tell very quickly whether an essay in my[/q1]
[q1]> topic is excellent or just very good and part of that is because I have spent years reading such[/q1]
[q1]> stuff. Just because I can't explain the exact rules doesn't mean it's arbitrary or personalised[/q1]
[q1]> or such.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> John[/q1]
Maybe if you were just handing the grades out you could tell the difference between an excellent and
a very good essay, but I thought that coursework and exam papers were both marked on a points
system? Could you tell the difference between a 41/50 and a 42/50 essay? If you gave a copy of the
essay to be marked to 100 different teachers, would they all return the same mark?
On the other hand, if you gave a piece of maths work to 100 different teachers, even accounting for
mistakes they might make, they would agree on the marks far more than the English teachers would.
English-type work IMO can't be marked as accurately as maths and science work (from what I've seen
of physics answer papers, even written questions boil down to "did the candidate mention the word
[whatever]?").
I'm not saying that English marking is a wildly innacurate business, I'm just saying that on a
detailed points out of 50 scale it's much harder to get an accurate score, and so if there *were* A*
grades at A-level, then there would be too much importance placed on the accuracy of marking.
Rich
steve.wren <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q3]> > > > I was going to pick up on this point. How can those of us who don't[/q3]
[q1]> do[/q1]
[q3]> > > > maths show our flair in other subjects?[/q3]
[q3]> > >[/q3]
[q3]> > > The current list of subjects offered at AEA level are[/q3]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> [list of AEA subjects cut][/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > I take your point, although it still doesn't entirely solve the problem,[/q2]
I
[q2]> > certainly don't do any of the subjects on there, and I'm certain I've[/q2]
[q1]> never[/q1]
[q2]> > heard my school mention AEA's, even if they do allow us to do them.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I wasn't trying to make a point by typing the whole list - was just trying to add info to the[/q1]
[q1]> discussion. Sorry if it looked otherwise.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> As for your school not talking about AEA's I think many schools have[/q1]
steered
[q1]> away from them so far - largely because we are all still coming to terms with the massive changes[/q1]
[q1]> made to the whole post-16 system.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> The danger of starting too many new ideas at once is that you split the[/q1]
time
[q1]> too much and get none of them right.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> We haven't offered AEa's this year (for our Year 13) but do intend to[/q1]
offer
[q1]> them next year for our most able current Year 12. I'm not sure if this is the case in other[/q1]
[q1]> subjects at our school but it certainly is for maths (subject to senior management approval!).[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Oh and the AEa maths paper is 3 hours long! Just like the old days of long exams which can[/q1]
[q1]> actually settle into rather than it being a rushed end of module test![/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Steve[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
What an interesting point! I got slammed last year when I proposed that the obvious ting to do with
a mixed class of English speakers/dyslexic studes/foreign students was to give them all as long as
they wanted to do a 2 hr paper. John
news:[email protected]...
[q3]> > > > I was going to pick up on this point. How can those of us who don't[/q3]
[q1]> do[/q1]
[q3]> > > > maths show our flair in other subjects?[/q3]
[q3]> > >[/q3]
[q3]> > > The current list of subjects offered at AEA level are[/q3]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> [list of AEA subjects cut][/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > I take your point, although it still doesn't entirely solve the problem,[/q2]
I
[q2]> > certainly don't do any of the subjects on there, and I'm certain I've[/q2]
[q1]> never[/q1]
[q2]> > heard my school mention AEA's, even if they do allow us to do them.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I wasn't trying to make a point by typing the whole list - was just trying to add info to the[/q1]
[q1]> discussion. Sorry if it looked otherwise.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> As for your school not talking about AEA's I think many schools have[/q1]
steered
[q1]> away from them so far - largely because we are all still coming to terms with the massive changes[/q1]
[q1]> made to the whole post-16 system.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> The danger of starting too many new ideas at once is that you split the[/q1]
time
[q1]> too much and get none of them right.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> We haven't offered AEa's this year (for our Year 13) but do intend to[/q1]
offer
[q1]> them next year for our most able current Year 12. I'm not sure if this is the case in other[/q1]
[q1]> subjects at our school but it certainly is for maths (subject to senior management approval!).[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Oh and the AEa maths paper is 3 hours long! Just like the old days of long exams which can[/q1]
[q1]> actually settle into rather than it being a rushed end of module test![/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Steve[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
What an interesting point! I got slammed last year when I proposed that the obvious ting to do with
a mixed class of English speakers/dyslexic studes/foreign students was to give them all as long as
they wanted to do a 2 hr paper. John
[q1]> I thought it was a comedy cliche but there are a bunch of older people who I have found that think[/q1]
[q1]> a war is whats needed to sort out the youf of today.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> It would put the whole A/A* thing into perspective
[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Rooooo x[/q1]
I was once at Rockwell in the US waitng in the foyer for a meeting in the company of a huge redneck
on the securiy desk. He said two things I found very ineteresting
1) We should hayuv a war. War is goood for Rockwell - so the guvv'munt should start one.
(worryingly, of course, they did)
2) We caint hayuv one heeyur - tooo much mess. We should have it in Europe - we hayud the layust
two theyur.
John
[q1]> a war is whats needed to sort out the youf of today.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> It would put the whole A/A* thing into perspective
[/q1][q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Rooooo x[/q1]
I was once at Rockwell in the US waitng in the foyer for a meeting in the company of a huge redneck
on the securiy desk. He said two things I found very ineteresting
1) We should hayuv a war. War is goood for Rockwell - so the guvv'munt should start one.
(worryingly, of course, they did)
2) We caint hayuv one heeyur - tooo much mess. We should have it in Europe - we hayud the layust
two theyur.
John
Richard Magrath <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> "JHP" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]
news:<[email protected]>...
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > What is the problem with subjectivity, exactly? I can tell very quickly whether an essay in my[/q2]
[q2]> > topic is excellent or just very good and part of[/q2]
that
[q2]> > is because I have spent years reading such stuff. Just because I can't explain the exact rules[/q2]
[q2]> > doesn't mean it's arbitrary or personalised or[/q2]
such.
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > John[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Maybe if you were just handing the grades out you could tell the difference between an excellent[/q1]
[q1]> and a very good essay, but I thought that coursework and exam papers were both marked on a points[/q1]
[q1]> system? Could you tell the difference between a 41/50 and a 42/50 essay? If you gave a copy of the[/q1]
[q1]> essay to be marked to 100 different teachers, would they all return the same mark?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> On the other hand, if you gave a piece of maths work to 100 different teachers, even accounting[/q1]
[q1]> for mistakes they might make, they would agree on the marks far more than the English teachers[/q1]
[q1]> would. English-type work IMO can't be marked as accurately as maths and science work (from what[/q1]
[q1]> I've seen of physics answer papers, even written questions boil down to "did the candidate mention[/q1]
[q1]> the word [whatever]?").[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I'm not saying that English marking is a wildly innacurate business, I'm just saying that on a[/q1]
[q1]> detailed points out of 50 scale it's much harder to get an accurate score, and so if there *were*[/q1]
[q1]> A* grades at A-level, then there would be too much importance placed on the accuracy of marking.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Rich[/q1]
Yes, but so what? What difference does it make whether the marks are accurate within 1%? Life isn't
that accurate. We don't admit on the basis of 1%.
Maths and (your example) English are essentially different - are therefore judged differently and
carry different connotations of 'goodness'. So what? John
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> "JHP" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]
news:<[email protected]>...
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > What is the problem with subjectivity, exactly? I can tell very quickly whether an essay in my[/q2]
[q2]> > topic is excellent or just very good and part of[/q2]
that
[q2]> > is because I have spent years reading such stuff. Just because I can't explain the exact rules[/q2]
[q2]> > doesn't mean it's arbitrary or personalised or[/q2]
such.
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > John[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Maybe if you were just handing the grades out you could tell the difference between an excellent[/q1]
[q1]> and a very good essay, but I thought that coursework and exam papers were both marked on a points[/q1]
[q1]> system? Could you tell the difference between a 41/50 and a 42/50 essay? If you gave a copy of the[/q1]
[q1]> essay to be marked to 100 different teachers, would they all return the same mark?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> On the other hand, if you gave a piece of maths work to 100 different teachers, even accounting[/q1]
[q1]> for mistakes they might make, they would agree on the marks far more than the English teachers[/q1]
[q1]> would. English-type work IMO can't be marked as accurately as maths and science work (from what[/q1]
[q1]> I've seen of physics answer papers, even written questions boil down to "did the candidate mention[/q1]
[q1]> the word [whatever]?").[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I'm not saying that English marking is a wildly innacurate business, I'm just saying that on a[/q1]
[q1]> detailed points out of 50 scale it's much harder to get an accurate score, and so if there *were*[/q1]
[q1]> A* grades at A-level, then there would be too much importance placed on the accuracy of marking.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Rich[/q1]
Yes, but so what? What difference does it make whether the marks are accurate within 1%? Life isn't
that accurate. We don't admit on the basis of 1%.
Maths and (your example) English are essentially different - are therefore judged differently and
carry different connotations of 'goodness'. So what? John
"Davido" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> What are your thoughts on this?[/q1]
The problem is that Oxbridge would make offers based on A*s then - which I really would hate!
I've got an AAB offer from Oxford, and having worked pretty hard I can probably manage it.
However, there would be NO hope of me getting the two A*'s in Latin and Greek they'd ask me for if
that was the case!
Andrew H
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> What are your thoughts on this?[/q1]
The problem is that Oxbridge would make offers based on A*s then - which I really would hate!
I've got an AAB offer from Oxford, and having worked pretty hard I can probably manage it.
However, there would be NO hope of me getting the two A*'s in Latin and Greek they'd ask me for if
that was the case!
Andrew H
"Becky Loader" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "Brian Sloan" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]
[q1]> news:[email protected]...[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > The A* is a nice idea, and since I got 9 of them at GCSE you may think I would be all for it.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Did you really? Good job you said: I absolutely needed that 35th mention[/q1]
of
[q1]> it for it to finally sink in...[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> (2 A*, a smaller head, and slightly more sophistry)[/q1]
And no less intelligent no doubt! (and I still don't really get what a sophist is!)
Andrew H
news:[email protected]...
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "Brian Sloan" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]
[q1]> news:[email protected]...[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > The A* is a nice idea, and since I got 9 of them at GCSE you may think I would be all for it.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Did you really? Good job you said: I absolutely needed that 35th mention[/q1]
of
[q1]> it for it to finally sink in...[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> (2 A*, a smaller head, and slightly more sophistry)[/q1]
And no less intelligent no doubt! (and I still don't really get what a sophist is!)
Andrew H
In article <[email protected]> "steve.wren"
<[email protected]> wrote:
[q1]>I think that 25% of A level students get a grade A so it is a guide to Mathematical ability - it[/q1]
[q1]>allows you to know that a candidate is in the top quartile of A level mathematicians [...][/q1]
Stop! No, it means they're in the top quartile of those doing A-level maths, which is
heavily "contaminated" with physicists, chemists, engineers, economists, and thousands of
others. The mathematicians are only a small minority, and they're very heavily concentrated
in that top quartile. What's more, many of the mathematicians and physicists and a
significant number of others are also doing Further Maths, and for these people the [single]
maths should be an absolute doddle, even if they're struggling with FMaths.
[q1]> which means that the candidate is in the top couple of percent[/q1]
[q1]> of the countries population when it comes to mathematics.[/q1]
OK, but maths is around 3% of the univ population, so about 1% of the total population, so
being in the top 2% is not all that significant.
[q2]>> >Regarding A level there is already an effective A* grade - the Advanced Extension Award [...][/q2]
[q2]>> In what sense is this effective?[/q2]
[q1]>I meant effective in the sense that it differentiates between A grade students based on their[/q1]
[q1]>mathematical ability on the main maths topics - that is there is no need for extra content to[/q1]
[q1]>be taught.[/q1]
There may be no need for extra *content*, but there will be [perceived] need for extra
teaching; your "bright sparks" will want to see and try past papers, and will expect to be
coached on the techniques used to solve these harder/longer questions, while your B-graders
[and worse] will still be struggling with the content. I don't see it as *that* different
from taking an extra module.
[q1]>The grade A students will be split into 3 (Distinction, Merit and fail) allowing (in effect) three[/q1]
[q1]>different A grades - A**, A* and A. i would have felt this would meet some of your needs as an[/q1]
[q1]>admissions tutor.[/q1]
Yes, it will -- *if* [big IF] it becomes standard fare for almost all serious mathematicians
[in a way that STEP hasn't].
[q1]>I have set some of the questions from the trial paper to my more able mathematicians as homeworks -[/q1]
[q1]>they have gone away and struggled, thought, considered and tried things and eventually come up with[/q1]
[q1]>good solutions without any additional teaching.[/q1]
OK, but this is as an optional extra. Would they still just go away and struggle unaided if
they needed a Merit to get to their desired univ?
[q1]>I know some Uni's insist on A level Further Maths for entry onto a course.[/q1]
I don't know of any offhand, though I haven't checked. If, eg, Cambridge do, then they have
remarkably many applicants who are utterly wasting their time.
[q1]>This does require considerable extra teaching time (with money implications) and does prevent many[/q1]
[q1]>smaller schools & colleges from offering the course.[/q1]
Perhaps, but I'm not as convinced as I would have been a few years ago. "Smaller" schools
are typically [at least, in relation to our applicants] indies, which often seem "happy" to
put on FMaths even for tiny numbers. My impression is that many relatively small schools and
colleges are already putting on some choices of maths modules, as their CS and Econ students
want a different diet from Phys [stats and discrete vs mechanics]. In that case, enough
modules to run AS FMaths are already running, and indeed we have already seen a sharp
increase in the number of applicants offering AS FMaths and a corresponding decrease in the
numbers offering only Maths.
[q1]>I'm unsure how this fits in with your statement that you can't ask for AEAs unless all schools do[/q1]
[q1]>them? Do Nottingham still ask for Further Maths? If so couldn't you ask for AEA's also?[/q1]
We *don't* ask [and never have] for FMaths. OTOH, if an applicant is doing it, then we slap
an A grade on it. There are no current plans, but I could imagine that we might move to
asking for at least AS FMaths. We could avoid that if we had more room for manoeuvre in the
grades by asking for A* in single maths.
[q1]>I don't know if you've had the opportunity to look at an AEA paper [...][/q1]
No. May have to if it becomes a serious issue!
--
Andy Walker, School of MathSci., Univ. of Nott'm, UK. [email protected]
<[email protected]> wrote:
[q1]>I think that 25% of A level students get a grade A so it is a guide to Mathematical ability - it[/q1]
[q1]>allows you to know that a candidate is in the top quartile of A level mathematicians [...][/q1]
Stop! No, it means they're in the top quartile of those doing A-level maths, which is
heavily "contaminated" with physicists, chemists, engineers, economists, and thousands of
others. The mathematicians are only a small minority, and they're very heavily concentrated
in that top quartile. What's more, many of the mathematicians and physicists and a
significant number of others are also doing Further Maths, and for these people the [single]
maths should be an absolute doddle, even if they're struggling with FMaths.
[q1]> which means that the candidate is in the top couple of percent[/q1]
[q1]> of the countries population when it comes to mathematics.[/q1]
OK, but maths is around 3% of the univ population, so about 1% of the total population, so
being in the top 2% is not all that significant.
[q2]>> >Regarding A level there is already an effective A* grade - the Advanced Extension Award [...][/q2]
[q2]>> In what sense is this effective?[/q2]
[q1]>I meant effective in the sense that it differentiates between A grade students based on their[/q1]
[q1]>mathematical ability on the main maths topics - that is there is no need for extra content to[/q1]
[q1]>be taught.[/q1]
There may be no need for extra *content*, but there will be [perceived] need for extra
teaching; your "bright sparks" will want to see and try past papers, and will expect to be
coached on the techniques used to solve these harder/longer questions, while your B-graders
[and worse] will still be struggling with the content. I don't see it as *that* different
from taking an extra module.
[q1]>The grade A students will be split into 3 (Distinction, Merit and fail) allowing (in effect) three[/q1]
[q1]>different A grades - A**, A* and A. i would have felt this would meet some of your needs as an[/q1]
[q1]>admissions tutor.[/q1]
Yes, it will -- *if* [big IF] it becomes standard fare for almost all serious mathematicians
[in a way that STEP hasn't].
[q1]>I have set some of the questions from the trial paper to my more able mathematicians as homeworks -[/q1]
[q1]>they have gone away and struggled, thought, considered and tried things and eventually come up with[/q1]
[q1]>good solutions without any additional teaching.[/q1]
OK, but this is as an optional extra. Would they still just go away and struggle unaided if
they needed a Merit to get to their desired univ?
[q1]>I know some Uni's insist on A level Further Maths for entry onto a course.[/q1]
I don't know of any offhand, though I haven't checked. If, eg, Cambridge do, then they have
remarkably many applicants who are utterly wasting their time.
[q1]>This does require considerable extra teaching time (with money implications) and does prevent many[/q1]
[q1]>smaller schools & colleges from offering the course.[/q1]
Perhaps, but I'm not as convinced as I would have been a few years ago. "Smaller" schools
are typically [at least, in relation to our applicants] indies, which often seem "happy" to
put on FMaths even for tiny numbers. My impression is that many relatively small schools and
colleges are already putting on some choices of maths modules, as their CS and Econ students
want a different diet from Phys [stats and discrete vs mechanics]. In that case, enough
modules to run AS FMaths are already running, and indeed we have already seen a sharp
increase in the number of applicants offering AS FMaths and a corresponding decrease in the
numbers offering only Maths.
[q1]>I'm unsure how this fits in with your statement that you can't ask for AEAs unless all schools do[/q1]
[q1]>them? Do Nottingham still ask for Further Maths? If so couldn't you ask for AEA's also?[/q1]
We *don't* ask [and never have] for FMaths. OTOH, if an applicant is doing it, then we slap
an A grade on it. There are no current plans, but I could imagine that we might move to
asking for at least AS FMaths. We could avoid that if we had more room for manoeuvre in the
grades by asking for A* in single maths.
[q1]>I don't know if you've had the opportunity to look at an AEA paper [...][/q1]
No. May have to if it becomes a serious issue!
--
Andy Walker, School of MathSci., Univ. of Nott'm, UK. [email protected]
[q2]> >I think that 25% of A level students get a grade A so it is a guide to Mathematical ability - it[/q2]
[q2]> >allows you to know that a candidate is in the[/q2]
top
[q2]> >quartile of A level mathematicians [...][/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Stop! No, it means they're in the top quartile of those doing A-level maths, which is heavily[/q1]
[q1]> "contaminated" with physicists, chemists, engineers, economists, and thousands of others. The[/q1]
[q1]> mathematicians are only a small minority, and they're very heavily concentrated in that top[/q1]
[q1]> quartile.[/q1]
Our differing definitions of mathematicians have caused us to disagree here. I defined
mathematicians in the 16-18 sense (ie. "A level Mathematicians" - those who do A level maths) - you
defined mathematicians as those who continue post 18 I think.
I suspect we are both right in our definitions - they meet our needs in day to day speak.
[q1]> What's more, many of the mathematicians and physicists and a significant number of others are also[/q1]
[q1]> doing Further Maths, and for these people the [single] maths should be an absolute doddle, even if[/q1]
[q1]> they're struggling with FMaths.[/q1]
The exam board speak is that Further maths isn't "harder maths" (as it used to be) but is just
"extra maths". I personally don't agree as the content of P6 is certainly harder than P2 (for
example) but the exam boards state otherwise.
[q1]> There may be no need for extra *content*, but there will be [perceived] need for extra teaching;[/q1]
[q1]> your "bright sparks" will want to see and try past papers, and will expect to be coached on the[/q1]
[q1]> techniques used to solve these harder/longer questions,[/q1]
I intend to give these students exposure to these AEA questions as part of the natural
differentiation and extension work in class (and will mark them as I do equally with work
designed to help the slower students along) but don't intend to offer any extra lessons or
coaching for the paper.
Perhaps other teachers could comment on plans at their institutons.
[q2]> >The grade A students will be split into 3 (Distinction, Merit and fail) allowing (in effect)[/q2]
[q2]> >three different A grades - A**, A* and A. i would[/q2]
have
[q2]> >felt this would meet some of your needs as an admissions tutor.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Yes, it will -- *if* [big IF] it becomes standard fare for almost all serious mathematicians [in a[/q1]
[q1]> way that STEP hasn't].[/q1]
We obviously don't know if AEA will take off. Since it's a replacement for the old Special Papers I
wonder if anyone can add to the discussion by letting me know if the take-up for these was universal
across colleges & schools or patchy! I would suggest that the pattern of AEA may replicate that of
the old specials.
[q2]> >I have set some of the questions from the trial paper to my more able mathematicians as homeworks[/q2]
[q2]> >- they have gone away and struggled, thought,[/q2]
considered and tried things and eventually come up with good solutions without any
additional teaching.
[q1]> OK, but this is as an optional extra. Would they still just go away and struggle unaided if they[/q1]
[q1]> needed a Merit to get to their desired univ?[/q1]
Good point - I think they might come looking for help & coaching in this case. I would argue with
them that coaching them through a particular question would be of little benifit as (hopefully)
questions would not be standard and repeating. This is unlike some of the main A level questions
which can be coached (to some degree). I hope my teaching encourages students to struggle and
persist at whatever level they are working.
[q2]> >I know some Uni's insist on A level Further Maths for entry onto a[/q2]
course.
[q1]> I don't know of any offhand, though I haven't checked.[/q1]
I think Warwick might. That's word of mouth though!
[q1]> Perhaps, but I'm not as convinced as I would have been a few years ago. "Smaller" schools are[/q1]
[q1]> typically [at least, in relation to our applicants] indies, which often seem "happy" to put on[/q1]
[q1]> FMaths even for tiny numbers.[/q1]
I'll give an example of a non-Indie school - ours - it may be common place or otherwise outside of
your applicants - I'm not sure.
Lower sixth - 80 students - of which 35 started A level maths - two groups of 15 both studying
identical modules (P1,S1 and m1 in year 12, P2, P3 and S2 in year 13) plus a Further Maths
group of 5.
We have no option (currently) of offering differing modules to our A level students based on their
other subjects - they don't break down nicely into "Physics students" on one side and "Psychologists
etc." on the other - this is largely due to the wierd and wonderful combos of 4 AS levels students
study nowadays. The old Maths, Phys, Chem idea has well gone!
We are currently looking to see if we can find any innoivative ways of mixing groups to offer
differing module combos - it's not looking good at the minute.
We are not running FM next year - only 2 applicants. Our minimum is 6 (we started last year with 6
but one left college) - in a college of 80 this will be a non-frequent course i think. Although our
current Year 10 students are good - that might transfer into FM applicants.
[q1]> In that case, enough modules to run AS FMaths are already running, and indeed we have already seen[/q1]
[q1]> a sharp increase in the number of applicants offering AS FMaths and a corresponding decrease in[/q1]
[q1]> the numbers offering only Maths.[/q1]
Not sure this is the case - for AS Further maths P4 is compulsory and therefore, since this is
not part of most A level module combos, extra teaching time (and resources which is the big
issue) are required.
The whole module combos thing is a minefield that most schools are fighting their way through to
offer maximum flexability of courses with minimal cost.
[q2]> >I'm unsure how this fits in with your statement that you can't ask for[/q2]
AEAs
[q2]> >unless all schools do them? Do Nottingham still ask for Further Maths? If[/q2]
so
[q2]> >couldn't you ask for AEA's also?[/q2]
[q1]> We *don't* ask [and never have] for FMaths. OTOH, if an applicant is doing it, then we slap an A[/q1]
[q1]> grade on it.[/q1]
Apologies - I hadn't realised this. I required a B at further maths to get into Nottingham Uni to do
Maths - I was never told this was not a pre-requisite but rather an offer made because i was doing
the subject.
As it was I got a C - did Maths with Engineering at Nottingham, got a 2:1 and had a great time -
loved the course - loved the people - loved the city - still here!
[q2]> >I don't know if you've had the opportunity to look at an AEA paper [...][/q2]
[q1]> No. May have to if it becomes a serious issue![/q1]
I look forward to seeing if it does!
Cheers,
Steve
[q2]> >allows you to know that a candidate is in the[/q2]
top
[q2]> >quartile of A level mathematicians [...][/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Stop! No, it means they're in the top quartile of those doing A-level maths, which is heavily[/q1]
[q1]> "contaminated" with physicists, chemists, engineers, economists, and thousands of others. The[/q1]
[q1]> mathematicians are only a small minority, and they're very heavily concentrated in that top[/q1]
[q1]> quartile.[/q1]
Our differing definitions of mathematicians have caused us to disagree here. I defined
mathematicians in the 16-18 sense (ie. "A level Mathematicians" - those who do A level maths) - you
defined mathematicians as those who continue post 18 I think.
I suspect we are both right in our definitions - they meet our needs in day to day speak.
[q1]> What's more, many of the mathematicians and physicists and a significant number of others are also[/q1]
[q1]> doing Further Maths, and for these people the [single] maths should be an absolute doddle, even if[/q1]
[q1]> they're struggling with FMaths.[/q1]
The exam board speak is that Further maths isn't "harder maths" (as it used to be) but is just
"extra maths". I personally don't agree as the content of P6 is certainly harder than P2 (for
example) but the exam boards state otherwise.
[q1]> There may be no need for extra *content*, but there will be [perceived] need for extra teaching;[/q1]
[q1]> your "bright sparks" will want to see and try past papers, and will expect to be coached on the[/q1]
[q1]> techniques used to solve these harder/longer questions,[/q1]
I intend to give these students exposure to these AEA questions as part of the natural
differentiation and extension work in class (and will mark them as I do equally with work
designed to help the slower students along) but don't intend to offer any extra lessons or
coaching for the paper.
Perhaps other teachers could comment on plans at their institutons.
[q2]> >The grade A students will be split into 3 (Distinction, Merit and fail) allowing (in effect)[/q2]
[q2]> >three different A grades - A**, A* and A. i would[/q2]
have
[q2]> >felt this would meet some of your needs as an admissions tutor.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Yes, it will -- *if* [big IF] it becomes standard fare for almost all serious mathematicians [in a[/q1]
[q1]> way that STEP hasn't].[/q1]
We obviously don't know if AEA will take off. Since it's a replacement for the old Special Papers I
wonder if anyone can add to the discussion by letting me know if the take-up for these was universal
across colleges & schools or patchy! I would suggest that the pattern of AEA may replicate that of
the old specials.
[q2]> >I have set some of the questions from the trial paper to my more able mathematicians as homeworks[/q2]
[q2]> >- they have gone away and struggled, thought,[/q2]
considered and tried things and eventually come up with good solutions without any
additional teaching.
[q1]> OK, but this is as an optional extra. Would they still just go away and struggle unaided if they[/q1]
[q1]> needed a Merit to get to their desired univ?[/q1]
Good point - I think they might come looking for help & coaching in this case. I would argue with
them that coaching them through a particular question would be of little benifit as (hopefully)
questions would not be standard and repeating. This is unlike some of the main A level questions
which can be coached (to some degree). I hope my teaching encourages students to struggle and
persist at whatever level they are working.
[q2]> >I know some Uni's insist on A level Further Maths for entry onto a[/q2]
course.
[q1]> I don't know of any offhand, though I haven't checked.[/q1]
I think Warwick might. That's word of mouth though!
[q1]> Perhaps, but I'm not as convinced as I would have been a few years ago. "Smaller" schools are[/q1]
[q1]> typically [at least, in relation to our applicants] indies, which often seem "happy" to put on[/q1]
[q1]> FMaths even for tiny numbers.[/q1]
I'll give an example of a non-Indie school - ours - it may be common place or otherwise outside of
your applicants - I'm not sure.
Lower sixth - 80 students - of which 35 started A level maths - two groups of 15 both studying
identical modules (P1,S1 and m1 in year 12, P2, P3 and S2 in year 13) plus a Further Maths
group of 5.
We have no option (currently) of offering differing modules to our A level students based on their
other subjects - they don't break down nicely into "Physics students" on one side and "Psychologists
etc." on the other - this is largely due to the wierd and wonderful combos of 4 AS levels students
study nowadays. The old Maths, Phys, Chem idea has well gone!
We are currently looking to see if we can find any innoivative ways of mixing groups to offer
differing module combos - it's not looking good at the minute.
We are not running FM next year - only 2 applicants. Our minimum is 6 (we started last year with 6
but one left college) - in a college of 80 this will be a non-frequent course i think. Although our
current Year 10 students are good - that might transfer into FM applicants.
[q1]> In that case, enough modules to run AS FMaths are already running, and indeed we have already seen[/q1]
[q1]> a sharp increase in the number of applicants offering AS FMaths and a corresponding decrease in[/q1]
[q1]> the numbers offering only Maths.[/q1]
Not sure this is the case - for AS Further maths P4 is compulsory and therefore, since this is
not part of most A level module combos, extra teaching time (and resources which is the big
issue) are required.
The whole module combos thing is a minefield that most schools are fighting their way through to
offer maximum flexability of courses with minimal cost.
[q2]> >I'm unsure how this fits in with your statement that you can't ask for[/q2]
AEAs
[q2]> >unless all schools do them? Do Nottingham still ask for Further Maths? If[/q2]
so
[q2]> >couldn't you ask for AEA's also?[/q2]
[q1]> We *don't* ask [and never have] for FMaths. OTOH, if an applicant is doing it, then we slap an A[/q1]
[q1]> grade on it.[/q1]
Apologies - I hadn't realised this. I required a B at further maths to get into Nottingham Uni to do
Maths - I was never told this was not a pre-requisite but rather an offer made because i was doing
the subject.
As it was I got a C - did Maths with Engineering at Nottingham, got a 2:1 and had a great time -
loved the course - loved the people - loved the city - still here!
[q2]> >I don't know if you've had the opportunity to look at an AEA paper [...][/q2]
[q1]> No. May have to if it becomes a serious issue![/q1]
I look forward to seeing if it does!
Cheers,
Steve
On Sun, 16 Jun 2002 21:05:08 +0100, "Brian Sloan" <[email protected]> wrote:
[q1]>I apologise most sincerely. I wasn't conciously trying to be bigheaded, but I wasn't sure people[/q1]
[q1]>would remember me across posts. I promise not to mention it again.[/q1]
If it's any consolation, I hadn't noticed at all Brian :-)
Mind you, if you mention it again I'll bite.
Ian
Who has no A*s at all - although, clearly, that's only because they didn't exist in those days and
nothing to do with me being a right lazy bastard at school....
--
Ian, Cath & Eoin Ford The view from Beccles
Support clubs against Carlton & Granada: Boycott ITV world cup coverage.
You know what to do: delete the dots but leave the .s to reply to us.
[q1]>I apologise most sincerely. I wasn't conciously trying to be bigheaded, but I wasn't sure people[/q1]
[q1]>would remember me across posts. I promise not to mention it again.[/q1]
If it's any consolation, I hadn't noticed at all Brian :-)
Mind you, if you mention it again I'll bite.
Ian
Who has no A*s at all - although, clearly, that's only because they didn't exist in those days and
nothing to do with me being a right lazy bastard at school....
--
Ian, Cath & Eoin Ford The view from Beccles
Support clubs against Carlton & Granada: Boycott ITV world cup coverage.
You know what to do: delete the dots but leave the .s to reply to us.
"JHP" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> What do you mean? 'More attainable A grades' means that we will get more A grade candidates and[/q1]
[q1]> those who are better than A (as presently measured) are disadvantaged.[/q1]
Keep them as they are, I mean. Have university admissions people sort out who are the very best
students. The top unis interview anyway. Of course, A-level scores might be perfect evidence of how
a student will cope at university, I have no idea.
And as for us assessing your school work - I;m afraid you
[q1]> have no idea how little I know about my subject at school level. It all seems immensely trivial to[/q1]
[q1]> me, but that's school Business Studies for you. I'd stick to the people who know, the secondary[/q1]
[q1]> school teachers.[/q1]
What it boils down to is, I've never consciously thought about applying Assessment Objectives to my
writing in English (which is the subject I'm really on about - the one I'm hoping to carry on after
Year 13) and none of my teachers have ever recommended doing so, either. But I don't think I'm too
bad at the subject - I got an A* in it at GCSE, after all, even acheiving full marks on one essay.
So I'd be happier if getting an offer from Hypothetical College, London was based on what their
admissions people (presumably experienced teachers in that subject with Ph.Ds) saw in my work and in
their interview, with my getting an 'A' as evidence of at least a firm grasp of the subject, than
simply in matching all the esoteric & obscure marking criteria of the exam board.
Put yourself in my shoes, John. You're my age and you're half way through your exams (literally,
having just finished the new AS system). You really want a place at Cambridge or somewhere else
famous in your field of study. As you are also in an alternate universe where the A* grade exists,
this of course requires grades of A*AA. You sit the exams, then hear lots of horror stories about
marking - supposedly the exams are comparitively easy (though this means nothing to you, as you've
never taken any of the old exams to compare them with) but the marking is infamously slapdash. This
is worrying, as you really want that university place - it sounds sad, but it means the same to you
as a place on the Manchester United youth team would mean to your friends.
Through your inability to grasp the Assessment Objectives and apply them directly to your work, you
only manage an A (the horror! the horror!). You hope that Cambridge will let you have an interview
where you imagine your natural talent in the subject shining through, but no, they can't offer you a
place with your pitiful AAA grades.
You go home and listen to your Smiths records, then start looking through the job openings at ASDA.
A bit melodramatic, yes, but there's a point in there somewhere. In theory the A* thing is a good
idea, but I can't in all faith support something that I myself would not wish to be introduced
during my own school career.
[q1]> John[/q1]
BTW I asked my English teachers if they knew what an AEA is. None of them did...
Rich
news:<[email protected]>...
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> What do you mean? 'More attainable A grades' means that we will get more A grade candidates and[/q1]
[q1]> those who are better than A (as presently measured) are disadvantaged.[/q1]
Keep them as they are, I mean. Have university admissions people sort out who are the very best
students. The top unis interview anyway. Of course, A-level scores might be perfect evidence of how
a student will cope at university, I have no idea.
And as for us assessing your school work - I;m afraid you
[q1]> have no idea how little I know about my subject at school level. It all seems immensely trivial to[/q1]
[q1]> me, but that's school Business Studies for you. I'd stick to the people who know, the secondary[/q1]
[q1]> school teachers.[/q1]
What it boils down to is, I've never consciously thought about applying Assessment Objectives to my
writing in English (which is the subject I'm really on about - the one I'm hoping to carry on after
Year 13) and none of my teachers have ever recommended doing so, either. But I don't think I'm too
bad at the subject - I got an A* in it at GCSE, after all, even acheiving full marks on one essay.
So I'd be happier if getting an offer from Hypothetical College, London was based on what their
admissions people (presumably experienced teachers in that subject with Ph.Ds) saw in my work and in
their interview, with my getting an 'A' as evidence of at least a firm grasp of the subject, than
simply in matching all the esoteric & obscure marking criteria of the exam board.
Put yourself in my shoes, John. You're my age and you're half way through your exams (literally,
having just finished the new AS system). You really want a place at Cambridge or somewhere else
famous in your field of study. As you are also in an alternate universe where the A* grade exists,
this of course requires grades of A*AA. You sit the exams, then hear lots of horror stories about
marking - supposedly the exams are comparitively easy (though this means nothing to you, as you've
never taken any of the old exams to compare them with) but the marking is infamously slapdash. This
is worrying, as you really want that university place - it sounds sad, but it means the same to you
as a place on the Manchester United youth team would mean to your friends.
Through your inability to grasp the Assessment Objectives and apply them directly to your work, you
only manage an A (the horror! the horror!). You hope that Cambridge will let you have an interview
where you imagine your natural talent in the subject shining through, but no, they can't offer you a
place with your pitiful AAA grades.
You go home and listen to your Smiths records, then start looking through the job openings at ASDA.
A bit melodramatic, yes, but there's a point in there somewhere. In theory the A* thing is a good
idea, but I can't in all faith support something that I myself would not wish to be introduced
during my own school career.
[q1]> John[/q1]
BTW I asked my English teachers if they knew what an AEA is. None of them did...
Rich
"Ian/Cath Ford" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:11:20 +0100, "Becky Loader" <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
<snip>
we did this kind of thing in geog. we tended read through a critically evaluate a different students
work each week. on top of that ppl were ofter requested to read out bits of their essay (time
constraints).
also similar thing in economics thugh not as thorough.
maths teacher always had a laugh putting up ppl's solutions.. maybe that was just cruel.
will
[q1]> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:11:20 +0100, "Becky Loader" <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
<snip>
we did this kind of thing in geog. we tended read through a critically evaluate a different students
work each week. on top of that ppl were ofter requested to read out bits of their essay (time
constraints).
also similar thing in economics thugh not as thorough.
maths teacher always had a laugh putting up ppl's solutions.. maybe that was just cruel.
will
"Ian/Cath Ford" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:11:20 +0100, "Becky Loader" <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]> Glad to find two examples of people who have done this. Any more out there or is this all a[/q1]
[q1]> completly new thing for everyone else??[/q1]
Our teachers have done it with us!
With "specimen" answers to Latin and Classical Civilisation essays, we were given mark schemes and
the questions.
It's scary how we would have given so many papers bad marks that got Bs and As from the examiners!
Andrew H
[q1]> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:11:20 +0100, "Becky Loader" <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]> Glad to find two examples of people who have done this. Any more out there or is this all a[/q1]
[q1]> completly new thing for everyone else??[/q1]
Our teachers have done it with us!
With "specimen" answers to Latin and Classical Civilisation essays, we were given mark schemes and
the questions.
It's scary how we would have given so many papers bad marks that got Bs and As from the examiners!
Andrew H
"Davido" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> Kid gets picked on for wishing to pursue academic excellence[/q1]
Check.
[q1]> Grade As mean verbal abuse, unpopularity and maybe getting beaten up.[/q1]
Check
Classes
[q1]> frequently disrupted by poor behaviour [some stupid b**** in our AS level Maths class, if it[/q1]
[q1]> wasn't for her we'd have actually finished the syllabus. Her U in Maths came at the expense of[/q1]
[q1]> another 10 Us by other pupils].[/q1]
Check (Chemistry lessons with 17 year old kids turning off the lights and running round turning
taps on...)
Teachers never check homework.
Check (not enough time)
Welcome to an independent school.
Andrew H
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> Kid gets picked on for wishing to pursue academic excellence[/q1]
Check.
[q1]> Grade As mean verbal abuse, unpopularity and maybe getting beaten up.[/q1]
Check
Classes
[q1]> frequently disrupted by poor behaviour [some stupid b**** in our AS level Maths class, if it[/q1]
[q1]> wasn't for her we'd have actually finished the syllabus. Her U in Maths came at the expense of[/q1]
[q1]> another 10 Us by other pupils].[/q1]
Check (Chemistry lessons with 17 year old kids turning off the lights and running round turning
taps on...)
Teachers never check homework.
Check (not enough time)
Welcome to an independent school.
Andrew H
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:11:20 +0100, "Becky Loader" <[email protected]> wrote:
[q1]>good had been given a C grade, but then comforted (in some way at least, if a little confused) as[/q1]
[q1]>we criticised another essay, on Hamlet, only to find that it had been given full marks.[/q1]
Yeah - I have a geo one like that. It talks about the Colorado basin and includes a map which has
"Excellent Map <tick, tick>" written next to it. Shows the Colorado going out into the "Gulf of
Mexico" - which, of course, it doesn't....
I find it tends to give confidence to people that the work that gets shown off as full (or near)
marks isn't perfect and that, actually, most of them could improve on it.
Glad to find two examples of people who have done this. Any more out there or is this all a
completly new thing for everyone else??
Ian
--
Ian, Cath & Eoin Ford The view from Beccles
Support clubs against Carlton & Granada: Boycott ITV world cup coverage.
You know what to do: delete the dots but leave the .s to reply to us.
[q1]>good had been given a C grade, but then comforted (in some way at least, if a little confused) as[/q1]
[q1]>we criticised another essay, on Hamlet, only to find that it had been given full marks.[/q1]
Yeah - I have a geo one like that. It talks about the Colorado basin and includes a map which has
"Excellent Map <tick, tick>" written next to it. Shows the Colorado going out into the "Gulf of
Mexico" - which, of course, it doesn't....
I find it tends to give confidence to people that the work that gets shown off as full (or near)
marks isn't perfect and that, actually, most of them could improve on it.
Glad to find two examples of people who have done this. Any more out there or is this all a
completly new thing for everyone else??
Ian
--
Ian, Cath & Eoin Ford The view from Beccles
Support clubs against Carlton & Granada: Boycott ITV world cup coverage.
You know what to do: delete the dots but leave the .s to reply to us.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "Davido" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]
[q1]> news:[email protected]...[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > Kid gets picked on for wishing to pursue academic excellence[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Check.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > Grade As mean verbal abuse, unpopularity and maybe getting beaten up.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Check[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Classes[/q1]
[q2]> > frequently disrupted by poor behaviour [some stupid b**** in our AS level Maths class, if it[/q2]
[q2]> > wasn't for her we'd have actually finished the syllabus. Her U in Maths came at the expense of[/q2]
[q2]> > another 10 Us by other pupils].[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Check (Chemistry lessons with 17 year old kids turning off the lights and running round turning[/q1]
[q1]> taps on...)[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Teachers never check homework.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Check (not enough time)[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Welcome to an independent school.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Andrew H[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
Replying to both your posts, your independent school is nothing whatever like mine. What makes you
think you can generalise so sweepingly?
Stuart Williams
[email protected] says...
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "Davido" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]
[q1]> news:[email protected]...[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > Kid gets picked on for wishing to pursue academic excellence[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Check.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > Grade As mean verbal abuse, unpopularity and maybe getting beaten up.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Check[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Classes[/q1]
[q2]> > frequently disrupted by poor behaviour [some stupid b**** in our AS level Maths class, if it[/q2]
[q2]> > wasn't for her we'd have actually finished the syllabus. Her U in Maths came at the expense of[/q2]
[q2]> > another 10 Us by other pupils].[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Check (Chemistry lessons with 17 year old kids turning off the lights and running round turning[/q1]
[q1]> taps on...)[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Teachers never check homework.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Check (not enough time)[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Welcome to an independent school.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Andrew H[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
Replying to both your posts, your independent school is nothing whatever like mine. What makes you
think you can generalise so sweepingly?
Stuart Williams
"Ian/Cath Ford" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:11:20 +0100, "Becky Loader" <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> >good had been given a C grade, but then comforted (in some way at least,[/q2]
if
[q2]> >a little confused) as we criticised another essay, on Hamlet, only to[/q2]
find
[q2]> >that it had been given full marks.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Yeah - I have a geo one like that. It talks about the Colorado basin and includes a map which has[/q1]
[q1]> "Excellent Map <tick, tick>" written next to it. Shows the Colorado going out into the "Gulf of[/q1]
[q1]> Mexico" - which, of course, it doesn't....[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I find it tends to give confidence to people that the work that gets shown off as full (or near)[/q1]
[q1]> marks isn't perfect and that, actually, most of them could improve on it.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Glad to find two examples of people who have done this. Any more out there or is this all a[/q1]
[q1]> completly new thing for everyone else??[/q1]
I have never done this.
ever.
[q1]> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:11:20 +0100, "Becky Loader" <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> >good had been given a C grade, but then comforted (in some way at least,[/q2]
if
[q2]> >a little confused) as we criticised another essay, on Hamlet, only to[/q2]
find
[q2]> >that it had been given full marks.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Yeah - I have a geo one like that. It talks about the Colorado basin and includes a map which has[/q1]
[q1]> "Excellent Map <tick, tick>" written next to it. Shows the Colorado going out into the "Gulf of[/q1]
[q1]> Mexico" - which, of course, it doesn't....[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I find it tends to give confidence to people that the work that gets shown off as full (or near)[/q1]
[q1]> marks isn't perfect and that, actually, most of them could improve on it.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Glad to find two examples of people who have done this. Any more out there or is this all a[/q1]
[q1]> completly new thing for everyone else??[/q1]
I have never done this.
ever.
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