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true that individuals are allowed to own the means of production but under very strict government guidelines, corruption etc I suppose Chairman Mao's hope of a chinese form of 'communism' came true in some ways.
Geordie_in_HK
true that individuals are allowed to own the means of production but under very strict government guidelines, corruption etc I suppose Chairman Mao's hope of a chinese form of 'communism' came true in some ways.


By definition, any country that allows the private ownership of the means of production is not communist. Corrupt and authoritarianism are not defining characteristics of communism. Their presence certainly doesn't make a country any more or less communist. As for government involvement in the economy, there are several countries in Europe that are more involved in the economy (government spending as percentage of GDP) than the Chinese government.
Reply 102
Bismarck
You're referring to China's political system, not its economic system. China is not communist; the fact is that individuals are allowed to own the means of production.
Ive been trying to figure out if China is SOCIALIST or capatlist for the past year. I still not sure. People are allowed some liberties, but no matter how you look at it, it all eventually leads back to the government.

For example: real estate. Yes you can buy your own home, you can buy lots of homes. People make fortunes from real estate in China, but if you want to start from the ground up and say, buy a plot of land and build a 50 story building on it with 500 living areas- YOU CANT. You can only buy a single space once the building is complete. You can only buy the land if you are one of a very few government backed and yet somehow independent coorperations. Most of housing in China is built by one of several real estate companies.

The government is also constantly creating/ending regulations that limit/control influence the market. They dont seem to really know what they are doing and keep trying out certain polcies to keep up the whole 'communal' thing going.
Kondar
Ive been trying to figure out if China is SOCIALIST or capatlist for the past year. I still not sure. People are allowed some liberties, but no matter how you look at it, it all eventually leads back to the government.

For example: real estate. Yes you can buy your own home, you can buy lots of homes. People make fortunes from real estate in China, but if you want to start from the ground up and say, buy a plot of land and build a 50 story building on it with 500 living areas- YOU CANT. You can only buy a single space once the building is complete. You can only buy the land if you are one of a very few government backed and yet somehow independent coorperations. Most of housing in China is built by one of several real estate companies.

The government is also constantly creating/ending regulations that limit/control influence the market. They dont seem to really know what they are doing and keep trying out certain polcies to keep up the whole 'communal' thing going.


How is this different from the EU? :confused:
Reply 104
Bismarck
How is this different from the EU? :confused:
I dont know, Ive never lived in the EU?
Kondar
I dont know, Ive never lived in the EU?


Well, the last paragraph would fit Brussels perfectly. :smile:

And I haven't lived in the EU either, but that's what all of my British friends tell me, as do most analysts who specialize in EU relations (granted, I don't read much on this topic).
Any prospective war of any kind between China and the USA would be much more likely to be inspired by china. As with the current arguments with Japan about WWII and Chinese history the chinese government would much prefer it if the Chinese people hate and blame foreigners for past crimes rather than the Chinese government for more recent and more serious ones. A serious internal problem- a collapse of the Three Dams project or an ecological disaster, say- could trigger a chinese invasion of Taiwan, or border regions as a distraction.
Reply 107
Weejimmie
Any prospective war of any kind between China and the USA would be much more likely to be inspired by china. As with the current arguments with Japan about WWII and Chinese history the chinese government would much prefer it if the Chinese people hate and blame foreigners for past crimes rather than the Chinese government for more recent and more serious ones. A serious internal problem- a collapse of the Three Dams project or an ecological disaster, say- could trigger a chinese invasion of Taiwan, or border regions as a distraction.
You are absolutely correct Weejimmie. China blames all of their faults on outside countries or foreign elements within China. Everything within China is made to look very black and white and very very simple.
-For example the Tianamen Massacre was the result of the students being mislead by the 'bad people'. The niave students were lied to and it was unfortunate but neccessary that the police had to kill them.
-The Cultural Revolution was the fault of one man who tried to flee China to Mongolia in a plane, to avoid punishment. Mao and Deng and others who had ruled China for over a decade knew nothing of the Cultural Revolution or they would of stopped it.
-"How can Japan move forward if they continue to lie about thier own history" is a question that is talked about on television everyday.

Propoganda is everywhere here and it is amazing how effective it is. The Chinese will believe everything their government tells them. They really believe that they are the most honest, peaceful, and flawless country on earth. They are all unaware of any of China's occupations/ invasions throughout the years.
Reply 108
Kondar
-The Cultural Revolution was the fault of one man who tried to flee China to Mongolia in a plane, to avoid punishment. Mao and Deng and others who had ruled China for over a decade knew nothing of the Cultural Revolution or they would of stopped it.

Hilarious. This is even better than all the other fabrications I've heard about the Tiananmen Massacre.
hey everyone knows the Tianamenn massacre was caused by students who had been corrupted by foreign powers and it was a shame to have to kill them all.
Kondar
-"How can Japan move forward if they continue to lie about thier own history" is a question that is talked about on television everyday.

Propoganda is everywhere here and it is amazing how effective it is. The Chinese will believe everything their government tells them. They really believe that they are the most honest, peaceful, and flawless country on earth. They are all unaware of any of China's occupations/ invasions throughout the years.


On one hand, you're right that many people, but not ALL people, still believe certain propaganda about history. I met a unversity student in Beijing who thought that North Korea is some kind of great place to live and was shocked when I said how it's this terrible dictatorship with starving people.

On the other hand, regarding just one point you mentioned, I think it's fair for China to bring up Japan's past aggressions. There are still government officials in Japan who try historical revisionism to justify their past actions: they were actually helping Korea & China, etc. It's really quite scary.

However, it seems the Japanese public at least is not as right wing as the government:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/CSM/story?id=807638
Reply 111
June 4 marks the 16th anniversary of China's bloody repression of pro-democracy protests on Tiananmen Square.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/27/opinion/edli.php

http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,7369,1231479,00.html
Reply 112
Kondar
June 4 marks the 16th anniversary of China's bloody repression of pro-democracy protests on Tiananmen Square.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/27/opinion/edli.php

http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,7369,1231479,00.html

What do you think the Chinese government's gonna do this year to divert the public's attention from it? Throw some obscure official party or festivity far away from Tiananmen Square or something?
supervin
What do you think the Chinese government's gonna do this year to divert the public's attention from it? Throw some obscure official party or festivity far away from Tiananmen Square or something?


"Dude, government-sponsored keg party at Beihai Park! Sweet!"
Kondar
June 4 marks the 16th anniversary of China's bloody repression of pro-democracy protests on Tiananmen Square.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/27/opinion/edli.php

http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,7369,1231479,00.html


Tiananmen Square was a terrible thing, but it does not fairly reflect modern day China. It's now become a convenient excuse for the US to pressure the EU to keep the arms embargo.

China is not what it was in 1989, anyone who has lived there can tell you that.
Reply 115
evilcitizen
Tiananmen Square was a terrible thing, but it does not fairly reflect modern day China. It's now become a convenient excuse for the US to pressure the EU to keep the arms embargo.

China is not what it was in 1989, anyone who has lived there can tell you that.

It doesn't reflect modern day China; it reflects the nature of the CCP and of human rights in China. The arms embargo was a result of the Tiananmen suppression, so it's not an excuse, although whether it is time to lift it is another issue.

The state in China regarding human rights hasn't really changed much - the locals who were directly affected by June 4th will certainly say so, whereas the majority are brainwashed by the CCP propaganda and fabrications regarding June 4th (also, many have not even heard of it due to media controls); frequent injustice, suppression of voice and opinion, persecution of Falun Gong (though controversial) and corruption driven motives have not indicated much improvement.
Reply 116
IZZY!
I understand that country at the moment may seem a joke, because I ve been there.


Do you have that effect on all countries you visit?
what like Urgay - now that's a funny country!
China has changed a lot since the Tiananmen Square tragedy. Living in HK, we do get quite a lot of pressure from China with regard to our political and social matters, and everyday the objections and protests of the HK people can be seen on the local newpapers.

China's freedom has speech, sadly, hasn't changed much. The government often still tries to cover up many things that it regard as "shameful". The most evident coverup was the SARS, when they denied the seriousness of the epidemic until it was too late. Mainland media were not allowed to publicise any of the information they have, and the government made sure almost none of the news were able to leak out until the HK government demanded an explanation when the death toll from the disease was sky-high. People in China have to be careful about what they say to prevent being arrested for "treason". One of the HK newspapers, Ming Pao, eventually had to close its business, and there were very convincing rumours that it was forced to bankrupcy by the Chinese government because it was the most "exposing" papers, publishing many of the scandels that the Chinee government tried to hide. Protests are still not allowed, and the most recent protest was "allowed", in fact "encouraged" because it was a protest against the Japanese government for denying the truth of the Nanjing Massacre. Even in HK, although our freedom of speech is still almost the same as many other Western countries, often politicians have to be careful about what they say. The election of our Chief Executive is merely an "act" of pretentious democracy, because the CE is always appointed by the Chinese government in the first place even though they deny that. First it was Tung, now it's Donald Tsang. Everyone knows that other 2 candadites don't stand a chance, and the citizens are not allowed to vote. The government has not allowed to pass the bill for Public Voting of the CE many times because the Chinese governments knows that their "ideal" candadite would not win the election if we can vote, and to maintain / increase their control over HK's politics and social matters, they must have a CE who would listen to them and help them.

Year after year, HK citizens mourn the dead of the Tiananmen Square. This event is still allowed because the Chinese govt. knows banning it would cause a huge rebellion and international criticisms, even though it is a pain in the eye for China. The number of mainland people allowed to migrate in HK is at a ridiculously high level, esp. the majority of them have no professional skills and they don't even bother finding their own jobs, but only feed off our tax money.

And the education system is getting into a greater and greater mess. First, they tried to enforce the "mother tongue" system, forcing some schools to teach in Chinese instead of the preferred English in the old system when HK was still a British colony. That didn't work well, and they tried to enforce the "Trilingual System", including Mandarin in the scheme of things. Then now they're allowing certain schools to go back to the English-teaching system, creating a huge academic gap between the Band 1 (good) and Band 3 (worst). Everyone knows its a desperate attempt to lower the standards in HK so the education in China can catch up / overtake HK, and to make it easier for the mainland immigrants to adapt because of their poor English, which now often force a Primary 6 student in China to attend Primary 3 in HK.

China has developed a lot financially, yet their social and political aspects are still rather conservative and behind compared to other countries, and their influence on the HK goverment is often resented by most of the HK citizens.
Reply 119
eurasianfeline
The government often still tries to cover up many things that it regard as "shameful". The most evident coverup was the SARS, when they denied the seriousness of the epidemic until it was too late. Mainland media were not allowed to publicise any of the information they have…

The Chinese Government covers matters up all the time and daily. At the very least, things are “sanitised” as reflected by current and past events – only just a couple of days ago, the great flood in China in the Hunan Province was heavily downplayed. Sources such as the BBC, CNN or Ming Pao in HK report a couple of hundred deaths and the dismal situation of housing, crops and peasants. I haven’t read into this deeply, but the reasons could lie once again in the failure of the Chinese Government in respect of the functioning or maintenance of the Three Gorges Dam. So this called for some “sanitisation”. Another reason for the censoring could merely be superstition: as it was very near June 4, the natural disaster could bring about “signs” as to the injustice and gross acts committed by the CCP in 1989 and this disaster was a punishment means to the country. Thirdly, this could be due to “saving face” - a timely reason that cannot be escaped due to Chinese culture. If you look into reports by Xinhua or Sina.com, you only see only pictures of families and babies being fed and granted shelter (by the lovely CCP) for a seemingly “small event”.

eurasianfeline
One of the HK newspapers, Ming Pao, eventually had to close its business, and there were very convincing rumours that it was forced to bankrupcy by the Chinese government because it was the most "exposing" papers, publishing many of the scandels that the Chinee government tried to hide.

I pretty sure it’s not Ming Pao, but Shun Pao, the financial newspaper, which was pressurised a couple of years ago.

eurasianfeline
Protests are still not allowed, and the most recent protest was "allowed", in fact "encouraged" because it was a protest against the Japanese government for denying the truth of the Nanjing Massacre.

As always, this is a good trump card for the CCP to divert attention of Chinese citizens from the CCP failures and to calm them down by venting their anger on something else instead, while at the same time being able to milk deals and profits from Japan. This is not to say that Japan isn’t any more at fault however – by its unapologetic stance and having its PM worship the Yakusuni Shrine often so as to glorify Japan’s war criminals. Japan gives a substantial sum of aids, yes, but its political stance is far from harmonious. Not only China, but also South Korea and the Philippines have expressed similar sentiments.

eurasianfeline
The election of our Chief Executive is merely an "act" of pretentious democracy, because the CE is always appointed by the Chinese government in the first place even though they deny that … and the citizens are not allowed to vote.

That’s an obvious for China to slowly maintain control and restrict autonomy. The CCP also messes with HK’s legal system a great deal which links to politics: the recent Beijing “interpretation” of the Basic Law as to the length of the term allowed to Donald Tsang; Beijing rubber-stamping a reverse in the decision for right of abode seekers in HK by the Court of Final Appeal a number of years ago; the problematic Article 23 of Basic Law on “sedition, secession and subversion” which has a wide interpretation.

eurasianfeline
The number of mainland people allowed to migrate in HK is at a ridiculously high level, esp. the majority of them have no professional skills and they don't even bother finding their own jobs, but only feed off our tax money.

Which also saps a lot of money out of HK as most mainlanders in HK spend their income back in China with their families during weekends and holidays where the standard of living is much lower there.

eurasianfeline
And the education system is getting into a greater and greater mess. First, they tried to enforce the "mother tongue" system … huge academic gap between the Band 1 (good) and Band 3 (worst). Everyone knows its a desperate attempt to lower the standards in HK so the education in China can catch up / overtake HK, and to make it easier for the mainland immigrants to adapt because of their poor English, which now often force a Primary 6 student in China to attend Primary 3 in HK.

The education reforms were ridiculous. Tung had no knowledge of the education system and had to interfere with it, notwithstanding also interference with housing and the stock market which was the worst thing he could possibly do. The enforcement of Mandarin and the lessening of the importance of the English is dumbest thing to do in the name of patriotism: the lowering of standards of English dramatically which results in lower employability and prospects overall. The education system which stood the test of time in HK was reduced from 5 “Bands” to 3 in the name of “equality”, which was pointless and pathetic which served nothing but confusion and dropping of standards.

eurasianfeline
China has developed a lot financially, yet their social and political aspects are still rather conservative and behind compared to other countries, and their influence on the HK goverment is often resented by most of the HK citizens.

In short, the CCP are selfish, power-thirsty and ruthless without taking any interest in the well-being of HK or its citizens. By cracking down on a peaceful protest for democracy by Beijing students in 1989 using brute force, it reflects wonders about its nature. The CCP are simply using HK, sapping money and resources into China and doing whatever it can to replace HK in terms of competitiveness and advantages economically, regardless of method and without respect to anyone's freedoms or rights. The number of (public) hypocrites in HK are on the rise - for the sake of prospects and benefits in China, which is not helping the situation at all.

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