Private VS state VS grammar sixth forms
say if i wanted to get into oxford, (grades aside say if a went to a private, state or grammar i ended up with the same grade at A-levels), which sixth form do you think i should attend, and work towards my favor to going to oxford. for example I've hear that Oxford normally accepts people from private over state, but i've also heard people from state school with lower grades than those who come out of private are accepted and that Oxford looks at your schools average performance, even if it is an average of 1 A* (say you go to a really bad school) and you have like 3 A* at GCSEs you would be accepted because you are showing potential (i think it would be the same for A-levels too, you get the drift). also where do grammar schools fit and would going to sixth forms/collages specifically for the course you want to take at oxford, say (this is just an example because i cant think of any others right now) oxford did a degree in fashion (i don't even know if you can get those but..) and you went to fashion collage, would that have a better advantage then just going to a sixth form that does a fashion course?
anyway to sum up Private VS State VS Grammar to get into Oxford?
i really need to decide where i'm going next year now, because some sixth forms have entrance tests and things, so please reply quickly, thankyou
anyway to sum up Private VS State VS Grammar to get into Oxford?
i really need to decide where i'm going next year now, because some sixth forms have entrance tests and things, so please reply quickly, thankyou (edited 10 years ago)
I don't think this is the sort of guessing game you can play, really. Any marginal advantage a correct choice might give you would probably be outweighed by the potential good luck/bad luck swing you might have with your personal statement, interview, etc.
I have been told by Oxford admissions staff that a state school pupil with the same grades as a private school pupil will be considered more favourably than the latter because he/she has had to make up the potential extra ground with their own effort. Presumably you could lump grammar schools in with private schools in this case too – as you say, I think they would be aware of your school's grade average.
I have been told by Oxford admissions staff that a state school pupil with the same grades as a private school pupil will be considered more favourably than the latter because he/she has had to make up the potential extra ground with their own effort. Presumably you could lump grammar schools in with private schools in this case too – as you say, I think they would be aware of your school's grade average.
I don't really think the average GCSE's of the school you went to matter 'that' much, maybe if they couldn't decide between 2 applicants and one performed dramaticlly above their school's average than the other, then it might sway it. I'd pick the one you'd be happiest at, I carried on at a private school 6th form and hated it and didn't want to go to Oxford because of all the pressure, then I changed to a college that had never got anyone into Oxbridge before and I fell in love with my subject again and am starting at Oxford next month. Do what's best for you in general, I'm sure it'll make a minimal difference to getting in if you're good enough. Good luck x
Original post by personalpronoun
say if i wanted to get into oxford, (grades aside say if a went to a private, state or grammar i ended up with the same grade at A-levels), which sixth form do you think i should attend, and work towards my favor to going to oxford. for example I've hear that Oxford normally accepts people from private over state, but i've also heard people from state school with lower grades than those who come out of private are accepted and that Oxford looks at your schools average performance, even if it is an average of 1 A* (say you go to a really bad school) and you have like 3 A* at GCSEs you would be accepted because you are showing potential (i think it would be the same for A-levels too, you get the drift). also where do grammar schools fit and would going to sixth forms/collages specifically for the course you want to take at oxford, say (this is just an example because i cant think of any others right now) oxford did a degree in fashion (i don't even know if you can get those but..) and you went to fashion collage, would that have a better advantage then just going to a sixth form that does a fashion course?
anyway to sum up Private VS State VS Grammar to get into Oxford? i really need to decide where i'm going next year now, because some sixth forms have entrance tests and things, so please reply quickly, thankyou
anyway to sum up Private VS State VS Grammar to get into Oxford?
i really need to decide where i'm going next year now, because some sixth forms have entrance tests and things, so please reply quickly, thankyou They want the best students from wherever they come from. On a superficial basis school really has very little to do with the outcome. In my college's cohort, I think 1/8 historian was privately educated, 2 were at grammar and the rest were state schooled. Across my college and the uni as a whole, my cohort is around 55% state/grammar, 45% independent.
There's certainly no bias whatsoever towards public (private) schools. However, at public schools pupils tend to receive more support and advice throughout their application and get more preparation prior to their interviews. And at one of the top public schools (i.e. Eton, Harrow, Winchester, Charterhouse etc.) there tends to be a lot of people applying to Oxford or Cambridge so you can prepare for interviews with other students and work together. Obviously schools with a lot of applicants often have more experience in the process and have better Oxbridge preparation programmes and resources targeted towards them. Although within the state and independent sector support tends to differ from one school to the next, so it's a question you should be asking at open days etc, "What additional support do you offer for Oxbridge applicants?"
On the other hand, applicants are viewed within contextual data. That means someone with 6*s at one of the worst schools in the country is more impressive than someone with 8 A*s from one of the best schools: they're looking for people who excel in whatever environment they're placed in. The uni is also under significant pressure to take more pupils from state schools.
Ultimately, however, it really doesn't make much difference. If you're good enough to get in then you will. So go to a sixth form you'll enjoy and where you'll be happy.
You're welcome to ask any questions. Good luck!
The unfortunate truth is, private schools exist for a reason: because they give you an advantage.
This isn't due to Oxford necessarily: as has been said, the official line is that two applicants of the same standard, one state one private, the state has the advantage.
But there is a lot that goes into getting to that point in the first place. You say ignore grades... why? Its a vital factor and one that objectively changes with type of school. And then there are factors like interview coaching, advice on making a solid application, and arguably just personal development that is gained by being in such an environment.
The results are fairly plain to see: 45% independent intake, with the private schooled having a slightly higher success rate when applying in addition.
There is possibly an argument for someone who is super confident of their grades and super confident that they won't benefit from any kind of coaching... then maybe state would be no different. And then of course there are good state schools, including grammars, and occasional lower achieving private schools, but my opinion is that these are a minority of cases. Private schools exist for a reason.
My aim here isn't to discourage state-grammar or state-comp applicants. I was one and my time here has been great. The difference is small and state applicants still make up the majority of successful applications, forming a greater proportion each year at the moment. I just think that its worth acknowledging that our current society is structured such that those who can afford it can and do advantage their kids, for good or for bad.
This isn't due to Oxford necessarily: as has been said, the official line is that two applicants of the same standard, one state one private, the state has the advantage.
But there is a lot that goes into getting to that point in the first place. You say ignore grades... why? Its a vital factor and one that objectively changes with type of school. And then there are factors like interview coaching, advice on making a solid application, and arguably just personal development that is gained by being in such an environment.
The results are fairly plain to see: 45% independent intake, with the private schooled having a slightly higher success rate when applying in addition.
There is possibly an argument for someone who is super confident of their grades and super confident that they won't benefit from any kind of coaching... then maybe state would be no different. And then of course there are good state schools, including grammars, and occasional lower achieving private schools, but my opinion is that these are a minority of cases. Private schools exist for a reason.
My aim here isn't to discourage state-grammar or state-comp applicants. I was one and my time here has been great. The difference is small and state applicants still make up the majority of successful applications, forming a greater proportion each year at the moment. I just think that its worth acknowledging that our current society is structured such that those who can afford it can and do advantage their kids, for good or for bad.
@justmyluck, really happy for you!
I've just finished Oxford having come from a grammar school, and I agree that you should go with the sixth-form you like. It's really easy to ask 'if they see two applicants who are exactly the same then what would give me the edge?', but the fact is they just won't see two applicants who are exactly the same. You should go where you feel you can make the most of what you love doing.
I've just finished Oxford having come from a grammar school, and I agree that you should go with the sixth-form you like. It's really easy to ask 'if they see two applicants who are exactly the same then what would give me the edge?', but the fact is they just won't see two applicants who are exactly the same. You should go where you feel you can make the most of what you love doing.
Original post by nexttime
The unfortunate truth is, private schools exist for a reason: because they give you an advantage.
This isn't due to Oxford necessarily: as has been said, the official line is that two applicants of the same standard, one state one private, the state has the advantage.
But there is a lot that goes into getting to that point in the first place. You say ignore grades... why? Its a vital factor and one that objectively changes with type of school. And then there are factors like interview coaching, advice on making a solid application, and arguably just personal development that is gained by being in such an environment.
The results are fairly plain to see: 45% independent intake, with the private schooled having a slightly higher success rate when applying in addition.
There is possibly an argument for someone who is super confident of their grades and super confident that they won't benefit from any kind of coaching... then maybe state would be no different. And then of course there are good state schools, including grammars, and occasional lower achieving private schools, but my opinion is that these are a minority of cases. Private schools exist for a reason.
My aim here isn't to discourage state-grammar or state-comp applicants. I was one and my time here has been great. The difference is small and state applicants still make up the majority of successful applications, forming a greater proportion each year at the moment. I just think that its worth acknowledging that our current society is structured such that those who can afford it can and do advantage their kids, for good or for bad.
This isn't due to Oxford necessarily: as has been said, the official line is that two applicants of the same standard, one state one private, the state has the advantage.
But there is a lot that goes into getting to that point in the first place. You say ignore grades... why? Its a vital factor and one that objectively changes with type of school. And then there are factors like interview coaching, advice on making a solid application, and arguably just personal development that is gained by being in such an environment.
The results are fairly plain to see: 45% independent intake, with the private schooled having a slightly higher success rate when applying in addition.
There is possibly an argument for someone who is super confident of their grades and super confident that they won't benefit from any kind of coaching... then maybe state would be no different. And then of course there are good state schools, including grammars, and occasional lower achieving private schools, but my opinion is that these are a minority of cases. Private schools exist for a reason.
My aim here isn't to discourage state-grammar or state-comp applicants. I was one and my time here has been great. The difference is small and state applicants still make up the majority of successful applications, forming a greater proportion each year at the moment. I just think that its worth acknowledging that our current society is structured such that those who can afford it can and do advantage their kids, for good or for bad.
In bold: is it a statistically significant difference?
Original post by nexttime
The unfortunate truth is, private schools exist for a reason: because they give you an advantage.
This isn't due to Oxford necessarily: as has been said, the official line is that two applicants of the same standard, one state one private, the state has the advantage.
But there is a lot that goes into getting to that point in the first place. You say ignore grades... why? Its a vital factor and one that objectively changes with type of school. And then there are factors like interview coaching, advice on making a solid application, and arguably just personal development that is gained by being in such an environment.
The results are fairly plain to see: 45% independent intake, with the private schooled having a slightly higher success rate when applying in addition.
There is possibly an argument for someone who is super confident of their grades and super confident that they won't benefit from any kind of coaching... then maybe state would be no different. And then of course there are good state schools, including grammars, and occasional lower achieving private schools, but my opinion is that these are a minority of cases. Private schools exist for a reason.
My aim here isn't to discourage state-grammar or state-comp applicants. I was one and my time here has been great. The difference is small and state applicants still make up the majority of successful applications, forming a greater proportion each year at the moment. I just think that its worth acknowledging that our current society is structured such that those who can afford it can and do advantage their kids, for good or for bad.
This isn't due to Oxford necessarily: as has been said, the official line is that two applicants of the same standard, one state one private, the state has the advantage.
But there is a lot that goes into getting to that point in the first place. You say ignore grades... why? Its a vital factor and one that objectively changes with type of school. And then there are factors like interview coaching, advice on making a solid application, and arguably just personal development that is gained by being in such an environment.
The results are fairly plain to see: 45% independent intake, with the private schooled having a slightly higher success rate when applying in addition.
There is possibly an argument for someone who is super confident of their grades and super confident that they won't benefit from any kind of coaching... then maybe state would be no different. And then of course there are good state schools, including grammars, and occasional lower achieving private schools, but my opinion is that these are a minority of cases. Private schools exist for a reason.
My aim here isn't to discourage state-grammar or state-comp applicants. I was one and my time here has been great. The difference is small and state applicants still make up the majority of successful applications, forming a greater proportion each year at the moment. I just think that its worth acknowledging that our current society is structured such that those who can afford it can and do advantage their kids, for good or for bad.
I agree with most of this but not with the part highlighted. There are a lot of private schools with poor Oxbridge entrance records. There would be little advantage in the OP switching to a weak private school. If the private school is a day school in an area with grammar schools, the OP should be particularly careful to ensure that the school isn't really a finishing school to keep thick middle class kids who can't get into grammar school away from the hoi polloi. The OP should be looking carefully at the private school's A level and Oxbridge record. Any private school ought to be able to deliver decent GCSE results and entrance rates to universities other than Oxbridge may well be the result of social sorting amongst applicants.
I'd doubt it works like 'luk at dis bruv ere wif da ****ty skool background, letz take em in'
It is more that if you have really high grades in comparison to your school, they will look at the grades in a (slightly) better light. Though I'm not sure who true that holds for A-levels though, usually they take that stance with GCSEs. Cambridge for example ask for something like 5 A*-C GCSE passes, but would only accept that if the average of the school was lower than that.
If you have a really good set of GCSEs also, they may question your motives for remaining at a school seen as providing a lesser standard of education. I'd highly doubt it would sit well with them that someone may have potentially let their education suffer to make it easier to get into Oxford.
If you can go to the grammer school, go there. If you already go to the comp, and like it and feel you can get good grades there, then stay there. Do not stay there though if you feel you will get the 'pass go, collect free ticket into Oxford' community chest card. I know several people who go from comp schools, to grammer school after GCSEs. Sometimes the comprehensives are better in that the sixth forms are smaller, thus smaller classrooms.
It is more that if you have really high grades in comparison to your school, they will look at the grades in a (slightly) better light. Though I'm not sure who true that holds for A-levels though, usually they take that stance with GCSEs. Cambridge for example ask for something like 5 A*-C GCSE passes, but would only accept that if the average of the school was lower than that.
If you have a really good set of GCSEs also, they may question your motives for remaining at a school seen as providing a lesser standard of education. I'd highly doubt it would sit well with them that someone may have potentially let their education suffer to make it easier to get into Oxford.
If you can go to the grammer school, go there. If you already go to the comp, and like it and feel you can get good grades there, then stay there. Do not stay there though if you feel you will get the 'pass go, collect free ticket into Oxford' community chest card. I know several people who go from comp schools, to grammer school after GCSEs. Sometimes the comprehensives are better in that the sixth forms are smaller, thus smaller classrooms.
Original post by Et Tu, Brute?
If you have a really good set of GCSEs also, they may question your motives for remaining at a school seen as providing a lesser standard of education. I'd highly doubt it would sit well with them that someone may have potentially let their education suffer to make it easier to get into Oxford.
Really don't think they'd think like that. If you can't afford a private school, in many areas you simply don't have much choice. And that's assuming that a 16 year old is thinking so much about their education that they're willing to up-heave their entire lives just to slightly improve their university chances, which most, and especially those from poorer backgrounds, are not going to be thinking.
Maybe it would look odd if they moved from a good school to a bad one, but even then there could be any number of reasons... bullying, commute times, social situation... tutors could ask at interview if they really suspicious, but i don't think they'd bother. The numbers trying to manipulate the system like that are probably close to 0.
Original post by Bax-man
In bold: is it a statistically significant difference?
My stats isn't great - the numbers are here if you want to look. Overall success rates from UK domiciles applicants 2012 ,n>1000 in each category:
Sixth forms: 17.43%
Comp: 20.93%
Grammar: 25.41%
Private applications: 26.62%
There is a alight caveat in that state applicants tend to apply to more competitive subjects, but if you actually crunch the numbers it doesn't make that much quantitative difference.
My gut feeling is that this would be statistically significant though yes. If you needed greater numbers, you could factor in previous years too, which all show the same trend.
My feeling is that Oxford does do a lot to improve access and flatten the social biases, but when private schooled applicants comprise 33% of those getting AAA and they can throw money at whatever applications process you choose, private schools (and grammar schools, which are often almost as socially selective as privates) will always have the advantage.
Original post by nexttime
Really don't think they'd think like that. If you can't afford a private school, in many areas you simply don't have much choice. And that's assuming that a 16 year old is thinking so much about their education that they're willing to up-heave their entire lives just to slightly improve their university chances, which most, and especially those from poorer backgrounds, are not going to be thinking.
Maybe it would look odd if they moved from a good school to a bad one, but even then there could be any number of reasons... bullying, commute times, social situation... tutors could ask at interview if they really suspicious, but i don't think they'd bother. The numbers trying to manipulate the system like that are probably close to 0.
Maybe it would look odd if they moved from a good school to a bad one, but even then there could be any number of reasons... bullying, commute times, social situation... tutors could ask at interview if they really suspicious, but i don't think they'd bother. The numbers trying to manipulate the system like that are probably close to 0.
If there are reasons to justify the move, then there is nothing to worry about. One reason which I suggested was smaller class sizes, thus a better teacher:student ratio. Other reasons are ones mentioned by yourself. However to move to a comprehensive for the reason based on 'easier to get into Oxford' isn't a good idea. And if they did ask, though as you said it is unlikely, and you didn't have a proper reason, you'd look quite silly indeed.
Original post by Et Tu, Brute?
If you have a really good set of GCSEs also, they may question your motives for remaining at a school seen as providing a lesser standard of education.
If you have a really good set of GCSEs also, they may question your motives for remaining at a school seen as providing a lesser standard of education.
Really? If you've done well at a school for GCSE I can't see why anyone would blame someone for staying there for A Levels. I mean if something's worked so well why risk your education by changing it?
To be honest I really don't think admissions tutors look into the reasons candidates change schools, they're often sensitive/personal and there's such a breadth of reasons. Not to mention how irrelevant it is to what's important (i.e. aptitude for the subject they applied for) that it's unlikely to be important enough to spend time on in one of two 20-30 minute interviews.
Original post by AJW 12394
Really? If you've done well at a school for GCSE I can't see why anyone would blame someone for staying there for A Levels. I mean if something's worked so well why risk your education by changing it?
To be honest I really don't think admissions tutors look into the reasons candidates change schools, they're often sensitive/personal and there's such a breadth of reasons. Not to mention how irrelevant it is to what's important (i.e. aptitude for the subject they applied for) that it's unlikely to be important enough to spend time on in one of two 20-30 minute interviews.
To be honest I really don't think admissions tutors look into the reasons candidates change schools, they're often sensitive/personal and there's such a breadth of reasons. Not to mention how irrelevant it is to what's important (i.e. aptitude for the subject they applied for) that it's unlikely to be important enough to spend time on in one of two 20-30 minute interviews.
I can't remember writing 'remaining', but yeah, there is nothing wrong with staying put so I'm just going to leave it at that
Original post by Et Tu, Brute?
I can't remember writing 'remaining', but yeah, there is nothing wrong with staying put so I'm just going to leave it at that
Ahaha, it's in post 10 above, and fair enough
Yes private and grammar students have the advantage.Not only at uni but later on in life, there comes a point in your career where going to a private school allows you to access higher paid jobs and superiour roles thats life!
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