Stop with the "who created God" argument it's bloody horrendous.

I did kind of mean that yes.At least I dont think immortality is really possible but I think we could certainly live longer than we do now.The point was that religion doesnt really offer solutions.For example take the question of creation.Religion gave us the myth of adam and eve.And it stuck to that myth for over a millenium.Science in the form of charles darwin,explained that humans came about through evolution.The church maintained that the sun went around the earth until copernicus came along to disprove that.Religion also held back medicine.The church banned dissection which meant no one could find out anything about the human body.You say religion offers solutions to moral problems but it doesn't really.Most catholics just cherrypick the parts of the bible they like.For example it condones slavery in the bible,christians ignore this.They use their conscience as a guide and that is where morals come from.We dont need religion for morals.We only need our conscience and empathy.

I dont think its wrong to say that christianity caused science to be held back.Galileo was arrested for heresy.Guardiano bruno was burned alive because he refused to say that there were no other worlds.Even newton whilst making brilliant insights into gravity became side-tracked with pseudoscience like alchemy.He even thought there were messages hidden in the bible.It was the churches position that held science back.The church contributed to the inquisition and gave credence to the existence of demons and witches. T hey refused to accept the earth was not at the centre of the universe and they refused to accept evolution.They only accepted scientific theories when the evidence became too much.

And christians do cherry pick the bible.They ignore the entire old testement,saying only the new testement applys. Even though Jesus specifically says that the law still applys.He says that heaven and earth will not pass away and not the least stroke of a pen shall be removed from the law.

And where exactly do you think those moral theories come from? They come from our consvience and our empathy with other humans.

Charles Darwin still believed in God.

The blind and lame have all been cured by Jesus already. If by old age, you mean living forever, it's not possible and science will never TRULY do it.

Charles Darwin still believed in God. This is the 2nd time you've come to a thread I'm in but I'm sure you are going to run again.

The Catholic Church said the sun went around the earth and it banned dissection but that has nothing to do with Christianity and the Bible. Adam and Eve existed.

The Bible doesn't condone slavery. It condones the voluntary slavery that was present in New Testament times where even doctors and lawyers were slaves of others to earn extra money.

Using your conscience only for morals is wrong because relative morality is unreliable and someone's conscience can become seared - meaning it is useless.

That wasn't Christianity, it was the Catholic Church doing this and it wasn't even true Christianity. You say 'church' to act as if it is every Christian when we know it's all Catholics.

The Bible has never said the earth was at the center of the universe and alchemy is nothing to do with the Bible.

It's obvious you want to say there are no demons but I guarantee you if you find a true Satanist (there was this guy that was interviewed before but he's changed now) and ask him how to be possessed, you won't be doubting anymore.

'And christians do cherry pick the bible.They ignore the entire old testement,saying only the new testement applys. Even though Jesus specifically says that the law still applys.He says that heaven and earth will not pass away and not the least stroke of a pen shall be removed from the law.

And where exactly do you think those moral theories come from? They come from our consvience and our empathy with other humans.'

Actually, he says until the law is fulfilled and it was - by his death LOL. It's so obvious when people who don't have the Holy Spirit don't read the Bible - they are the real cherry pickers.

Our morals came from the conscience that God gave us.

The reason why people think this can even count as an argument is because the majority of things around them, have been created - so they assume that the same must apply to The Creator. And yet this is just proof that there is an Eternal Creator as if this was the case everything you see would be created.

We know there must be an Eternal First Cause, as otherwise there would be an infinite regress, meaning that nothing at all would come to existence. Again I've explained above why the human mind might not think this could be possible.

I don't believe that to be true. He was certainly Religious initially, but he slowly lost his faith over time. In his latter years he openly said he was Agnostic and didn't believe in many of the fundamental tenets of Christianity. This is what i have gathered from sources such as Documentaries on his life and his own Autobiography.
The Wikipedia page similarly corresponds with this point:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Charles_Darwin

but we're really getting off-topic from the original argument made by OP.
Quote from his autobiography: "i cannot pretend to throw the least light on such abstruse problems. The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an Agnostic."
I agree with his sentiment here. I find it presumptuous and unfounded to assume a god (or an eternal first cause in general) created the universe, let alone a personal god you think is the "right one".

God isn't an event, so there is no such thing as him having never happened, he has always been 'happening' if I may say so but that doesn't work for the Big Bang, if it's eternal it must always be happening.

' And I never said the big bang exists outside of time, I said it exists outside of the outside of time, in a place that god can't reach. This claim has just as much validity as yours. '

No it doesn't, how can an event exist outside of the outside of time, that makes no sense whatsoever. One of the NASA Officials said the universe is a shadow of something greater, God is omnipresent so he is everywhere. There is no place he can't reach.

' Stating eternity is outside of time is a contradiction in terms. Eternity is an application of the concept of time and so can't exist outside of time. '

Yes, eternity is but something that IS ETERNAL isn't. Eternity isn't a lot of time - that makes no sense, it is to be outside of time. Even then as I said, something that is eternal isn't an application of the concept of time. I know why you're struggling - I doubt you have studied this strand of quantum physics.

'I know you can't make sense of the big bang theory and so have latched on to this 'outside of time' malarkey. It is why you hold onto the god delusion. But you don't have to concern yourself with that. The rest of scientifically literate people can make sense of it.'

No you're just confused. Even if you use your definition that eternity is infinite time, then how can the Big Bang be eternal, you make no sense in mine or your own logic. The Big Bang is an event not a Person so how can it be eternal LOL and then you call yourself scientifically literate.


'I (and i'm sure many other people on this thread) don't think even you understand your own thought process. I understand the imaginary concept of eternal first cause. The problem is that you think it's a real concept.'

It was you that suggested the Big Bang could be the eternal first cause and now you're trying to act as if you didn't get proven wrong. If it's not a real concept you're still wrong.

'There's no hypocrisy. I will always be an advocate for truth, not belief. Belief doesn't require facts or evidence. It's something that can help justify peoples own misunderstanding of the world. And we've all seen how someone's beliefs can cause so much harm and damage (although I don't think your misguided belief have harmed anyone).'

My beliefs aren't misguided and won't harm anyone. Science has harmed many just as 'religion' has. Belief doesn't require facts or evidence but it doesn;t mean it can't utilise them.

'If you think what you mentioned can in any way be considered proof, then you have no chance at any academic institution. Although I do hope you'll educate yourself as education is important.
I very much know my own logic. What i've been spouting is not my logic but your logic ('outside of time' / outside of the outside of time'. I've merely reflected your own logic back at you and when I do you can see that it makes no sense. But when you look at your own exact logic it some how makes sense. We'll work on your sense of logic together.'

This cringy smile is just getting weird LOL From what we have already seen, you've has disproved yourself so I'm worried about your education.

All you did was prove my logic was sound. The Big Bang is an event, so how can it be an eternal first cause? Your mind saddens me, it's not scientifically literate, logical or anything - it's just bigoted.

Well it certainly has more of a shot than religion does.Its already eradicated one infectious disease which was thought impossible.(smallpox).If you understand how something works you can cure it.

He says until everything is accomplished."for truly I tell you until heaven and earth dissapear,not the smallest letter,not the least stroke of a pen.... " Heaven and earth are still here,the law is still valid.Lol.Are you seriously arguing for demons now.Go home.Demons dont exist.They are a primitive superstition by people who didnt know any better.Person gets ill.Obviously the local witch caused it.Crops failed.Not weather patterns no.Must obviously be black magic.Guy acts mentally deranged.Couldn't possibly be a brain disorder.He must be posessed.Get real please.

Without having read the full thread of comments, I would just like to point out that referring to the Big Bang as eternal, or using any other measure of time to describe the Big Bang, is inherently wrong. The Big Bang theory proposes that the Big Bang was the point at which time began; asking what came 'before' the Big Bang is like asking what's North of the North Pole - it's an inherently contradictory question. I'll quote Stephen Hawking (from The Grand Design) as he puts it far better than I ever could:

1) “In the early universe—when the universe was small enough to be governed by both general relativity and quantum theory—there were effectively four dimensions of space and none of time. That means that when we speak of the “beginning” of the universe, we are skirting the subtle issue that as we look backward toward the very early universe, time as we know it does not exist! We must accept that our usual ideas of space and time do not apply to the very early universe. That is beyond our experience, but not beyond our imagination, or our mathematics.”

2) “The role played by time at the beginning of the universe is, I believe, the final key to removing the need for a Grand Designer, and revealing how the universe created itself. … Time itself must come to a stop. You can’t get to a time before the big bang, because there was no time before the big bang. We have finally found something that does not have a cause because there was no time for a cause to exist in. For me this means there is no possibility of a creator because there is no time for a creator to have existed. Since time itself began at the moment of the Big Bang, it was an event that could not have been caused or created by anyone or anything. … So when people ask me if a god created the universe, I tell them the question itself makes no sense. Time didn’t exist before the Big Bang, so there is no time for God to make the universe in. It’s like asking for directions to the edge of the Earth. The Earth is a sphere. It does not have an edge, so looking for it is a futile exercise.”

Why can't the big bang be the eternal first cause?

I'm sure 'Wikipedia' is a reliable source

when Darwin came up with his theory of natural selection and evolution - he attributed it to God.

it only saddens me to realise your punishment which will last for eternity. Perhaps, in the tribulation period, you may realise although going through that tribulation will not be easy.

The reason why people think this can even count as an argument is because the majority of things around them, have been created - so they assume that the same must apply to The Creator. And yet this is just proof that there is an Eternal Creator as if this was the case everything you see would be created.

We know there must be an Eternal First Cause, as otherwise there would be an infinite regress, meaning that nothing at all would come to existence. Again I've explained above why the human mind might not think this could be possible.

I dont think its wrong to say that christianity caused science to be held back.Galileo was arrested for heresy.Guardiano bruno was burned alive because he refused to say that there were no other worlds.Even newton whilst making brilliant insights into gravity became side-tracked with pseudoscience like alchemy.He even thought there were messages hidden in the bible.It was the churches position that held science back.The church contributed to the inquisition and gave credence to the existence of demons and witches. T hey refused to accept the earth was not at the centre of the universe and they refused to accept evolution.They only accepted scientific theories when the evidence became too much.

And christians do cherry pick the bible.They ignore the entire old testement,saying only the new testement applys. Even though Jesus specifically says that the law still applys.He says that heaven and earth will not pass away and not the least stroke of a pen shall be removed from the law.

And where exactly do you think those moral theories come from? They come from our consvience and our empathy with other humans.

Something certainly can come from nothing; a proven example of (more or less) this is quantum fluctuations in the vacuum. The purpose of raising such a point is that an argument oft-presented by religious people against the big bang is that 'the universe can't have just come from nothing'. If you use such a reasoning, to then claim God can come from nothing is inherently contradictory.

For instance, you say that there must be an 'Eternal First Cause'; then the question merely becomes why couldn't the universe itself have been this 'Eternal First Cause'? If you argue that the first Thing to exist had no creator and simply Was, then how can you show that the universe couldn't have been this very Thing?

THANK YOU. You have reason. To Hawking's second point, I would simply say God is transcendent and exists outside of time but anyway...

It started here:

'!!mentor!!' here seems to being a hypocrite, contradicting himself and going back on his word and yet he suggests the Big Bang is eternal then proceeds to call me scientifically illiterate.

I don't believe that to be true. He was certainly Religious initially, but he slowly lost his faith over time. In his latter years he openly said he was Agnostic and didn't believe in many of the fundamental tenets of Christianity. This is what i have gathered from sources such as Documentaries on his life and his own Autobiography.
The Wikipedia page similarly corresponds with this point:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Charles_Darwin

but we're really getting off-topic from the original argument made by OP.
Quote from his autobiography: "i cannot pretend to throw the least light on such abstruse problems. The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an Agnostic."
I agree with his sentiment here. I find it presumptuous and unfounded to assume a god (or an eternal first cause in general) created the universe, let alone a personal god you think is the "right one".

The blind and lame have all been cured by Jesus already. If by old age, you mean living forever, it's not possible and science will never TRULY do it.

If you don't want to believe that God created the universe but it only saddens me to realise your punishment which will last for eternity. Perhaps, in the tribulation period, you may realise although going through that tribulation will not be easy.