Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
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Original post by Dandaman1
It's only a matter of time until we get to choose our own species.
The problem is we in society are forced to go along with it. Here in Ontario, if you don't refer to somebody by their "preferred" gender identity (no matter how bizarre or made up it might be), you could face a legal penalty.
In my honest opinion, it's a social fad which may or may not be here to stay. This phenomenon involves predominantly young, socially awkward people who have found a new way to express themselves, and now the establishment is embracing it and pandering to them (and forcing the rest of us to do the same).
A lot of it is encouraged and amplified by the postmodern, hyper-progressive nonsense being taught to people in liberal arts schools.
The problem is we in society are forced to go along with it. Here in Ontario, if you don't refer to somebody by their "preferred" gender identity (no matter how bizarre or made up it might be), you could face a legal penalty.
In my honest opinion, it's a social fad which may or may not be here to stay. This phenomenon involves predominantly young, socially awkward people who have found a new way to express themselves, and now the establishment is embracing it and pandering to them (and forcing the rest of us to do the same).
A lot of it is encouraged and amplified by the postmodern, hyper-progressive nonsense being taught to people in liberal arts schools.
I really get what you're saying but at the end of the day whether it's a social fad or not (which it may well be) it just comes down to respect.
respecting how others want to be treated.
ultimately, we don't have to understand what it is they prefer, it's as alien to me as you, but it doesn't take much to show some courtesy and to just tolerate.
and since it's now a law in your province you literally have no choice but to tolerate so we might as well just keep it moving and live our lives.
Original post by hamzakalinle
I really get what you're saying but at the end of the day whether it's a social fad or not (which it may well be) it just comes down to respect.
respecting how others want to be treated.
ultimately, we don't have to understand what it is they prefer, it's as alien to me as you, but it doesn't take much to show some courtesy and to just tolerate.
and since it's now a law in your province you literally have no choice but to tolerate so we might as well just keep it moving and live our lives.
respecting how others want to be treated.
ultimately, we don't have to understand what it is they prefer, it's as alien to me as you, but it doesn't take much to show some courtesy and to just tolerate.
and since it's now a law in your province you literally have no choice but to tolerate so we might as well just keep it moving and live our lives.
There's a limit to respect that's deserved.
Sometimes people just need to be told no, such as those forcing the rest of us to call them made up pronouns or have legal documents altered to satisfy their need to feel special.
Pandering to these people is one thing, but being forced to pander is another thing entirely.
I am generally a "live and let live" kinda guy, but this is getting ridiculous.
Original post by shadowdweller
Never really understood why so many people seem to have an issue with this; it doesn't affect you how other people identify, so it's bizarre that so many people are adamantly against it.
Just because something might not affect anyone directly on the individual level (and I don't think that is actually the case here, I can see huge potential for abuse with this), doesn't mean it won't have a knock on effect on the wider society in the long term. The government is essentially pandering to the narcissism and massively inflated sense of entitlement of a tiny minority of bored, mostly middle-class, youths. Do you honestly believe that is a good precedent for the state to be setting?
(edited 6 years ago)
In the article it then says:
I'm thinking the times have conflated the terms as the article seems to imply you're already legally able to change your biological sex...?
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
I'm thinking the times have conflated the terms as the article seems to imply you're already legally able to change your biological sex...?
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
Original post by shadowdweller
Never really understood why so many people seem to have an issue with this; it doesn't affect you how other people identify, so it's bizarre that so many people are adamantly against it.
Yet it leads on to gender neutral bathrooms, men beating women up in female MMA fights Because said man identifies as a woman, forcing people to use a ridiculous "Ze" pronoun, taxpayers paying for gender reassignment and things like getting rid of "Ladies and Gentlemen" on the tubes.
Original post by StrawbAri
ITT: Muslims and right wingers share the same opinion about sex change 
ITT: People confusing gender and sex.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Just read that question again. Just. Read. It.
Now read it again. Aloud. Slowly.
Now think about what you just read.
Get my point?
Now read it again. Aloud. Slowly.
Now think about what you just read.
Get my point?
Spoiler
Original post by Meany Pie
It's a common mistake to make.
I'm confused though... you can identify as a different gender than your biological sex but then after sex change surgery you're technically a different sex now right? Since you have new genitalia
Original post by illmatics
I have no problem with people wanting to change their gender provided it's not in any way related to the '23 gender' discussion lol. What I find more interesting about this though is that if it was Corbyn suggesting this he would be hailed as a hero, but labour supporters will surely willingly ignore any progressive Tory policies so they can continue calling them trans-phobic, archaic etc.
Umm - the only reason the tories have come out with this is because of pressure from Corbyn
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/19/let-trans-people-self-identify-gender-corbyn-urges-may
Original post by StrawbAri
It's a common mistake to make.
I'm confused though... you can identify as a different gender than your biological sex but then after sex change surgery you're technically a different sex now right? Since you have new genitalia
I'm confused though... you can identify as a different gender than your biological sex but then after sex change surgery you're technically a different sex now right? Since you have new genitalia
Sex is determined by chromosomes, this cannot be changed.
"Sex Change" Surgery was the colloquial name for it, the proper term is Gender Reassignment surgery. However as I understand it you can change your legal sex (how you are viewed in the eyes of the law) without going through surgery.
Original post by Wōden
Just because something might not affect anyone directly on the individual level (and I don't think that is actually the case here, I can see huge potential for abuse with this), doesn't mean it won't have a knock on effect on the wider society in the long term. The government is essentially pandering to the narcissism and massively inflated sense of entitlement of a tiny minority of bored, mostly middle-class, youths. Do you honestly believe that is a good precedent for the state to be setting?
Yes, I entirely believe that supporting transgender people is an excellent precedent for the state to be setting. It may be a small minority, but so are other important causes, such as gay rights and many others, and significantly fewer dispute that as being an unworthy cause; though I'd note that many years ago, the arguments on gay rights would likely be taking a very similar avenue to the discussion we're having now. It's not narcissism, and it's certainly not a recent development as people seem to think, early reassignment surgeries having been recorded since the 1920s, and gender dysphoria itself dating back much earlier.
Original post by That'sGreat
Yet it leads on to gender neutral bathrooms, men beating women up in female MMA fights Because said man identifies as a woman, forcing people to use a ridiculous "Ze" pronoun, taxpayers paying for gender reassignment and things like getting rid of "Ladies and Gentlemen" on the tubes.
Yes, I'm sure we'll all be greatly affected by having to use 'Ze', or being called 'everyone' instead of 'ladies and gentlemen'. Realistically that's absolutely no different in terms of impact to someone saying they didn't like a particular nickname, say, and i'm sure you'd be happy to honour that, so why not a pronoun? Also, if a man identifies as a woman, she'd use 'she' anyway, rather than Ze. Ze is a gender neutral pronoun that some people prefer to use, but it's not spread on a large enough scale to really have reason to complain about it.
In terms of men beating up women in MMA fights, it wouldn't be the case; for one, transwomen would be classed as women, not men. And from the side that I suspect you will take to be more important, they'd only be able to take part after a year or more of HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy), which would greatly bridge the gap in strength, and largely compensate for the aspect you seem to be concerned about.
Realistically, you'd be contributing an incredibly negligible amount of your tax to this, so the whole argument about tax payers and the surgery is a bit of a misnomer. Yes, a very small portion of money may end up going to it, but it also goes to many more causes that are far less worthy, and it still doesn't impact you as to how that small portion is spent.
Original post by That'sGreat
Yet it leads on to gender neutral bathrooms, men beating women up in female MMA fights Because said man identifies as a woman, forcing people to use a ridiculous "Ze" pronoun, taxpayers paying for gender reassignment and things like getting rid of "Ladies and Gentlemen" on the tubes.
Yeah the ze pronoun is flipping ridiculous, I'm never calling someone that
Original post by Meany Pie
Sex is determined by chromosomes, this cannot be changed.
"Sex Change" Surgery was the colloquial name for it, the proper term is Gender Reassignment surgery. However as I understand it you can change your legal sex (how you are viewed in the eyes of the law) without going through surgery.
"Sex Change" Surgery was the colloquial name for it, the proper term is Gender Reassignment surgery. However as I understand it you can change your legal sex (how you are viewed in the eyes of the law) without going through surgery.
Ohh
Thanks for clearing that up
Original post by StrawbAri
Ohh
Thanks for clearing that up
Thanks for clearing that up
No problem
Do people even know what this law actually is? It's a long demanded reconsideration of an existing law. I signed a government petition about it months ago, possibly over a year ago.
It's not a free pass to gender reassignment surgery. It's a way to make it easier to change the sex marker on your legal documents, eg passport. To gain gender reassignment of any medical form you still have to go through the convoluted process of before (two years living as your 'chosen' gender, a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria by a trained gender therapist).
The transphobia on this thread is utterly shocking, honestly. There's so much intolerance towards the idea of giving people a small amount of respect. Possibly the most common question I get asked as a trans person is 'well what does it say on your passport/birth certificate' and this law change gives me hope of one day being able to live as I want to without fear of being judged and dismissed. While for many people it's 'the Tories pandering to lefties', for some people this move to make it easier is life changing.
It's not a free pass to gender reassignment surgery. It's a way to make it easier to change the sex marker on your legal documents, eg passport. To gain gender reassignment of any medical form you still have to go through the convoluted process of before (two years living as your 'chosen' gender, a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria by a trained gender therapist).
The transphobia on this thread is utterly shocking, honestly. There's so much intolerance towards the idea of giving people a small amount of respect. Possibly the most common question I get asked as a trans person is 'well what does it say on your passport/birth certificate' and this law change gives me hope of one day being able to live as I want to without fear of being judged and dismissed. While for many people it's 'the Tories pandering to lefties', for some people this move to make it easier is life changing.
I am all for supporting people to live as they wish and I hope I always treat others with respect but....
I am currently training for triathlons and I have a chance of getting a podium place in my age group. I would be mightily p-----d off if someone born a man used the proposed quick route to declaring that ze was now a woman (despite stilll having all the wedding tackle that ze was born with) and using zis superior strength and height to beat me in the race. Sorry I can't help it but I would feel cheated. Increasing trans people's rights should not come at the expense of women's rights.
I am currently training for triathlons and I have a chance of getting a podium place in my age group. I would be mightily p-----d off if someone born a man used the proposed quick route to declaring that ze was now a woman (despite stilll having all the wedding tackle that ze was born with) and using zis superior strength and height to beat me in the race. Sorry I can't help it but I would feel cheated. Increasing trans people's rights should not come at the expense of women's rights.
A birth certificate shows your sex, not your gender, and your sex refers to your genetic make up incl. what sexual organs you possess. I'm not sure why these people are being allowed to change it 'without permission of a doctor' when they clearly are not biologically male?
You can ****ing piss and whine all you want some of you that 'it's not harming anyone' but in a medical emergency, whether you are male or female will obviously have an impact and if a doctor thinks you're a female because you choose to call yourself that despite having a dick and 2 balls then you're an absolute ****.
Be whatever cockamamy gender you want, but sex is not a social construct and all you need to do is look down there and find out what sex you are.
You can ****ing piss and whine all you want some of you that 'it's not harming anyone' but in a medical emergency, whether you are male or female will obviously have an impact and if a doctor thinks you're a female because you choose to call yourself that despite having a dick and 2 balls then you're an absolute ****.
Be whatever cockamamy gender you want, but sex is not a social construct and all you need to do is look down there and find out what sex you are.
Original post by Dandaman1
It's only a matter of time until we get to choose our own species.
The problem is we in society are forced to go along with it. Here in Ontario, if you don't refer to somebody by their "preferred" gender identity (no matter how bizarre or made up it might be), you could face a legal penalty.
In my honest opinion, it's a social fad which may or may not be here to stay. This phenomenon involves predominantly young, socially awkward people who have found a new way to express themselves, and now the establishment is embracing it and pandering to them (and forcing the rest of us to do the same).
A lot of it is encouraged and amplified by the postmodern, hyper-progressive nonsense being taught to people in liberal arts schools.
The problem is we in society are forced to go along with it. Here in Ontario, if you don't refer to somebody by their "preferred" gender identity (no matter how bizarre or made up it might be), you could face a legal penalty.
In my honest opinion, it's a social fad which may or may not be here to stay. This phenomenon involves predominantly young, socially awkward people who have found a new way to express themselves, and now the establishment is embracing it and pandering to them (and forcing the rest of us to do the same).
A lot of it is encouraged and amplified by the postmodern, hyper-progressive nonsense being taught to people in liberal arts schools.
Yes, I very much doubt anyone over 30 buys into this nonsense. People can label themselves if they want, but I'm not going to use a made-up pronoun. You can't say anything against it without being called a bigot - in other words "you disagree with me, so you're a bigot."
I'm a member of a minority and I'm happy enough that people have their own opinions. We can't have a thought police. Let people get on with their lives and don't abuse, but you can't change opinion through name-calling and brow beating people. They are demanding respect and showing none themselves. That leads to resentment and further division. I do think it's a fad, but I'm worried about what will replace it.
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Original post by Asolare
Oh jesus christ people have a different opinion is not transphobia would you get over yourself. More importantly you cannot arbitrarly go around changing your BIOLOGICAL sex. Change your gender all you ****ing want and be a sea manatee if you like to, but you nor any other trans person can change their genetic makeup.
There are plenty of people here calling trans people childish for something they literally cannot help, saying we're deluded and impossible. Some of what is being said here is 'textbook' transphobia where they're denying our chance to, you know, freely express ourselves and be respected by others. I'm not saying they're transphobic for having a different opinion to me, I'm saying they're expressing anti-trans opinions that are in some cases misguided and perhaps misinformed (and perhaps not - I'm just, like they are, trying to persuade them that my view is at least partly correct).
I understand the concerns, but what kind of medical emergency requires knowledge of genitalia and (some) secondary sex characteristics? If that were the case, surely blood type should go on everyone's passport and driving licence?
Trans people are not trying to change their 'biological sex' or their 'chromosomes' (though there's a lot more variation here than you might think, you might want to ask an expert as I am but a lowly humanities student); they are doing everything they can to transition so they can see themselves closer to how they feel they should be. The issue of changing gender/sex markers is about social transition and being seen as your 'chosen' gender.
Original post by Asolare
Oh jesus christ people have a different opinion is not transphobia would you get over yourself. More importantly you cannot arbitrarly go around changing your BIOLOGICAL sex. Change your gender all you ****ing want and be a sea manatee if you like to, but you nor any other trans person can change their genetic makeup.
Don't confuse biological sex and legal sex.
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