Trans children are being damaged

Original post by Good bloke

You contradict yourself in consecutive sentences. Puberty blockers are a medical intervention.

Pedantic guff aside, given its pretty clear I was referring to surgery since that was the point of the person I responded to, any actual point?

Original post by BlueIndigoViolet

regardless, conditions like gender dysphoria should not be treated with a concotion of drugs at such an age, but leave any sort of intervention medically till they are 18, though they are free to interact socially claiming to be another gender altogether

You talk as if that's the neutral option? Puberty blockers are reversible, the effects of going through the wrong puberty are far less so. The neutral position would be treat with puberty blockers, with desisters then ceasing that treatment at which point normal puberty would begin without any other medical interference. However, that's treated like an extreme position because society is fundamentally cissexist and values the life of a cis child more than that of a trans one

Original post by YaliaV

I don’t know enough about them, but I imagine a lot of the effects would be irreversible. Puberty blockers sound really scary and I can’t imagine the potential damage.

Nope. They've been used for decades, originally to treat precocious puberty in cis children, with no greater risk than any other readily prescribed medication.

Reply 62

OP

No, they are not. Why are you lying? What could possibly possess you to lie and thus perpetuate child abuse?

Reply 63

username2393237

Original post by Stiff Little Fingers

Pedantic guff aside, given its pretty clear I was referring to surgery since that was the point of the person I responded to, any actual point?

You talk as if that's the neutral option? Puberty blockers are reversible, the effects of going through the wrong puberty are far less so. The neutral position would be treat with puberty blockers, with desisters then ceasing that treatment at which point normal puberty would begin without any other medical interference. However, that's treated like an extreme position because society is fundamentally cissexist and values the life of a cis child more than that of a trans one

Nope. They've been used for decades, originally to treat precocious puberty in cis children, with no greater risk than any other readily prescribed medication.

I don’t think it’s that simple and you can’t possibly know the long-term effects. It’s a very profound thing to do to a child who can’t consent. Hormones affect the brain and emotions, so I very much doubt anyone knows the long-term effects.

Reply 64

Stiff Little Fingers

Original post by YaliaV

I don’t think it’s that simple and you can’t possibly know the long-term effects. It’s a very profound thing to do to a child who can’t consent. Hormones affect the brain and emotions, so I very much doubt anyone knows the long-term effects.

We do know the long term effects of puberty blockers, because as @InArduisFouette told you, they've been used for 40 years for treatment in general, 30 years for specifically this sort of case. As for it being a "very profound thing to do to a child who can’t consent", how is it worse than forcing a child to go through the wrong puberty when they're insistent they don't want it? They can't consent to that either. Your argument amounts to "lower the quality of trans lives to protect the far fewer number of cis kids who turn out to not be trans", and that's founded entirely in bigotry.

Reply 65

Original post by yudothis

Ah so you do cite WPATH.

Funny that you don't cite their paper that shows 90% desistence rate in children who are not put on blockers but 0% desisetence rate for those that are.

Funny that.

thankyou for demonstrating that you can;t read

i presume you are referring to GIDS patting themselves on the back on correctly using the diagnostic critera, often too lattle and too late

your bigotry and advocation for child abuse is all to evident

Reply 66

Stiff Little Fingers

Original post by yudothis

Ah so you do cite WPATH.

Funny that you don't cite their paper that shows 90% desistence rate in children who are not put on blockers but 0% desisetence rate for those that are.

Funny that.

Since I've now seen it quoted, learn what you're talking about or stay quiet fer Christ's sake. That doesn't remotely say what you're implying. The "90% who desist" were GNC, not trans, and were assessed as such. What those stats actually show is that puberty blockers aren't being prescribed to people who aren't trans, but that 1 in 10 who aren't prescribed puberty blockers are trans and are being gatekept. They're the false negatives in the diagnostic system.

Reply 67

PRSOM

Original post by Stiff Little Fingers

Since I've now seen it quoted, learn what you're talking about or stay quiet fer Christ's sake. That doesn't remotely say what you're implying. The "90% who desist" were GNC, not trans, and were assessed as such. What those stats actually show is that puberty blockers aren't being prescribed to people who aren't trans, but that 1 in 10 who aren't prescribed puberty blockers are trans and are being gatekept. They're the false negatives in the diagnostic system.

Reply 68

Original post by Hutch-2001

completely and irrefutably agree. At the MINIMUM sex changes or whatever they're called should NOT be legal until you are 18. END OF

I strongly suggest you inform yourself on what the treatment pathway is

before Tanner Stage II there are no medical interventions , any input is purely psychological to asses the nature of the dysphoria and to support parents in providing affirming social transition

at Tanner stage II if the individual remaisn dysphoric or the dysphoria worsens fully reversible GnRH analogures are used to buy time, to a point where the individual displays Gillick competence / reaches an Arbitrary age limit ( often 16 as this is the age at which Dutch law recognises individuals have competence over medical treatment - and the origins of the basic treatment pathway is in the Netherlands) in Australia and Canada there are clinicians ,m with full legal backing, starting hormones a 14 where young people are competenet and have an established and stable or worsening Dysphoria

at 16 -18 depending on the exact legal situation then the assessment process for GCS begins ... i am not aware of anyone under 16 having had GCS and the current practice in most places seem to be 17 or 18 at least

Reply 69

OP

Original post by InArduisFouette

thankyou for demonstrating that you can;t read

i presume you are referring to GIDS patting themselves on the back on correctly using the diagnostic critera, often too lattle and too late

your bigotry and advocation for child abuse is all to evident

Typical DARVO - I accuse you of perpetuating child abuse by promoting the 1-2-3 easy quick fix puberty blocker 'treatment', and all you can do is childish ad hominem and "oh he said I am x, better say he is x".

Reply 70

OP

Original post by Stiff Little Fingers

Since I've now seen it quoted, learn what you're talking about or stay quiet fer Christ's sake. That doesn't remotely say what you're implying. The "90% who desist" were GNC, not trans, and were assessed as such. What those stats actually show is that puberty blockers aren't being prescribed to people who aren't trans, but that 1 in 10 who aren't prescribed puberty blockers are trans and are being gatekept. They're the false negatives in the diagnostic system.

That is exactly the point - and why rushing to puberty blockers that trans validation extremists like you are bullying for, is so highly dangerous. According to people like you, as soon as a kid displays GNC behavior, and ever just utters the words "I feel I should be a boy/girl" they should be put on blockers.

In your magic fairyland world doctors are able to accurately and quickly ascertain if a child is 'truly' trans or not - they can't. Which is why you support child abuse. As well as spreading lies such as "puberty blockers are reversible". Sickening.

Reply 71

eggboydraco

9

Original post by YaliaV

I don’t know enough about them, but I imagine a lot of the effects would be irreversible. Puberty blockers sound really scary and I can’t imagine the potential damage.

Puberty blockers are reversible. All they do is delay puberty. If you stop them, nothing happens. You just start puberty as if nothing had occurred. "Blockers" does sound scary, but it's really not. It helps alleviate the severe and dangerous mental strain on trans youth (going through natural puberty for a lot of trans people is incredibly distressing and causes issues such as eating disorders, self harm, and depression) while they have to wait until they're 18 to pursue other medical treatments if they want them (not all do, it's entirely personal). If someone has blockers, they have to have been in the GIC system for a long time to begin with, so it cannot be something that's rushed into and several doctors and therapists must agree that it is in the child's best interests for their long term welfare. The patients are thoroughly assessed beforehand and throughout to assess their mental and physical health, and can stop treatment at any time :smile:

Reply 72

OP

Original post by eggboydraco

Puberty blockers are reversible. All they do is delay puberty. If you stop them, nothing happens. You just start puberty as if nothing had occurred. "Blockers" does sound scary, but it's really not. It helps alleviate the severe and dangerous mental strain on trans youth (going through natural puberty for a lot of trans people is incredibly distressing and causes issues such as eating disorders, self harm, and depression) while they have to wait until they're 18 to pursue other medical treatments if they want them (not all do, it's entirely personal). If someone has blockers, they have to have been in the GIC system for a long time to begin with, so it cannot be something that's rushed into and several doctors and therapists must agree that it is in the child's best interests for their long term welfare. The patients are thoroughly assessed beforehand and throughout to assess their mental and physical health, and can stop treatment at any time :smile:

No they are not. Neither physically nor mentally. Not least, this is an oxymoronic statement. You cannot reverse time, hence something that "delays", isn't reversible, by definition.

All anecdotal evidence points to the fact that in many cases problem occurs. And there is no scientific evidence, because no long term studies have been done. In fact, trans validation activists actively try to suppress research into this. So tell me, what is your basis for saying they are reversible?

Reply 73

eggboydraco

9

Original post by yudothis

No they are not. Neither physically nor mentally. Not least, this is an oxymoronic statement. You cannot reverse time, hence something that "delays", isn't reversible, by definition.

All anecdotal evidence points to the fact that in many cases problem occurs. And there is no scientific evidence, because no long term studies have been done. In fact, trans validation activists actively try to suppress research into this. So tell me, what is your basis for saying they are reversible?

I work with trans youth. Several of the kids I work with have had blockers. Some stopped, for various reasons, and their biological puberty began as normal, just later than kids their age. I, too, am trans and have discussed such interventions with my GIC contact. Blockers do not damage the body's ability to go through puberty. They simply block the production of puberty-inducing hormones for as long as is required. Remove the blockers, and the hormones function as they are supposed to.

Reply 74

OP

Original post by eggboydraco

I work with trans youth. Several of the kids I work with have had blockers. Some stopped, for various reasons, and their biological puberty began as normal, just later than kids their age. I, too, am trans and have discussed such interventions with my GIC contact. Blockers do not damage the body's ability to go through puberty. They simply block the production of puberty-inducing hormones for as long as is required. Remove the blockers, and the hormones function as they are supposed to.

No they do not. You have no evidence whatsoever that there is no long-lasting harm to delaying blockers. You have no idea what the difference is with using these drugs in a variety of circumstances such as before puberty even starts and for 1 year, or for 3 years, or starting taking them after 2 years into puberty and then for 1 year or 3 years. What does exist, is plenty of evidence that the drugs used for this like Lupron, are very dangerous and there are already cases of people who took them who report problems in adulthood. You are playing with the lives of people based on the lie "don't do anything and they will kill themselves".

Reply 75

eggboydraco

9

Original post by yudothis

No they do not. You have no evidence whatsoever that there is no long-lasting harm to delaying blockers. You have no idea what the difference is with using these drugs in a variety of circumstances such as before puberty even starts and for 1 year, or for 3 years, or starting taking them after 2 years into puberty and then for 1 year or 3 years. What does exist, is plenty of evidence that the drugs used for this like Lupron, are very dangerous and there are already cases of people who took them who report problems in adulthood. You are playing with the lives of people based on the lie "don't do anything and they will kill themselves".

And you're fearmongering on the basis of your own prejudices and ignorance. Trans children are no less valuable than cis children and refusing them treatment that is, for many, necessary to cope until something can be done when they're older. Forcing kids to wait and suffer through a puberty that IS irreversible (which could easily have been blocked) and face the consequences of that for the rest of their lives based on your own misunderstandings about trans healthcare, which you approach from a stance originating in neither a trans perspective or from a gender specialist, is fundamentally wrong. Gender dysphoria, left unchecked and unsupported in children, is crushing and incredibly damaging to mental health, leading to high suicide and self-harm rates. Do not dismiss figures that are genuinely concerning to promote your own agenda of demonising trans healthcare. These treatments are not given lightly. For many, it takes years before you're even eligible or considered for blockers or hormones.
The only issues I've found when researching puberty blockers is a) bone density issues for those already predisposed to such a condition genetically (in which case, you're likely to be refused blockers anyway due to that risk) and b) problems when having gender confirmation surgery (as was the case with Jazz Jennings). In both cases, these possible side-effects are thoroughly explained by your doctor and, as with any medical treatment, the patient can either accept or refuse the proposed treatment if they're concerned.

Reply 76

Good bloke

19

Original post by InArduisFouette

the only person in a magic fairyland here is you in the deluded TERFy world you inhabit where the facts of the matter are ignored in favour of concern trolling and wilfull harm

It always descends to the trans advocates saying either that those who oppose them are ignorant and unqualified to comment, or that they are in need of a good personal inmsult. Always. Of course, that doesn't devalue your argument at all, does it? Oh no!

Reply 77