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Beating a human up VS beating up a non-human animal Watch

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    First off:
    WTF! Beating up non-human animals. So there are human animals?!

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    oh wait all humans are animals............


    I think animals would have sufficed OP. We can make the link.

    But I do think the way animals are treated is very disrespectful. Even branding cows, something that is probably still common and still most of us don't see it as a horrible painful experience. I guess it's to do with our socialisation as well.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    I'm not arguing that you're not different to a chicken, but I'm confused about how those differences are morally relevant.

    Moreover free range regulations still allow for a hell of a lot of suffering on the animals behalf. A more accurate description of free range regulations is yarding.

    There are clear differences between men and women.
    Between individual men. Between men, women and intersexuals.
    None of that entails that any of those categorisations should be allowed to be abused, discriminated against or oppressed.
    The same is true between the species. What is the relevant moral difference between two beings of different species who have the same levels of intellect, ability to feel pain.

    Lastly, not subscribing to the animal industries with food does not mean starving, there are plenty of plant based diets that suit human needs perfectly adequately, and in the west the availability of these diets is incredibly high, they are very accessible.
    The differences are much vaster. It comes down to superority and nature.

    If you say we are al animals and all equal, then nature tells us the strong prey on the weak. If we are superior to the animals then we should have no qualms about taking what we need. It is up to you I suppose, but I don't see it as a moral issue so long as we do not harm the animals in unssecsary ways.
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    (Original post by Steevee)
    The differences are much vaster. It comes down to superority and nature.

    If you say we are al animals and all equal, then nature tells us the strong prey on the weak. If we are superior to the animals then we should have no qualms about taking what we need. It is up to you I suppose, but I don't see it as a moral issue so long as we do not harm the animals in unssecsary ways.
    The issue here then is that wants=/=needs.
    We do not need to harm animals in the meat industry in so much as we do not need the meat industry.
    It is not vital to our survival. From an economic point we need it to a certain degree, but it's heavily subsidised and couple be phased out over the course of 20 years. So the argument you've put up allows for the meat industry until we've phased it out to the extent that it will no longer damage our economy.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    This makes no sense at all.

    Firstly factory farming, free range, and organic standards all allow for a lot of suffering to be cause to the animal.

    Secondly that demand does not HAVE to be met.

    Furthermore it doesn't address the question of, if that is justified why does it not follow on a logical basis that killing and eating the marginal cases is justified?
    I am not disputing that a lot of cruelty occurs in farming, I am saying that as we have evolved as omnivores. Meat is what the majority of people eat and that isn't going to change very soon if ever. The demand for meat means we need to use these farming methods and unfortunately most people are not going to be overly troubled by it.

    Basically, this is the world we live in so either go on some campaign to make everyone vegans or learn to live with it.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    That's just a group of unfounded generalisations.

    Just because most humans are 'intelligent' doesn't mean all are.
    The issue there is one of intelligence, therefore it would follow if that was the criterion of our decision making that the marginal cases would be treated the same as the animals who have the same levels of 'intelligence'.

    That isn't a justification of speciesism, all it is is a different way of phrasing it, restating it.

    I'd be surprised if many people agree'd with that.
    First, humans are more intelligent than chickens. That isn't unfounded. That's true.

    You will never find a human which is less intelligent than a chicken - even the most severely retarded. To save us discussing euthanasia, ignore the brain-dead.

    Second, there are no marginal cases. That there is a sliding scale, rather than a black-and-white filter, does not follow. Humans are more intelligent than all other animals by a long shot.

    By intelligence, I mean a developed language, social structure, use of tools and technology. Yes, I accept that chimps are more developed along these lines than, say, chickens. But compared to us they are nowhere close. It is not unreasonable to claim that these have no notable intelligence.

    Your post would have weight if we ever discovered an animal/alien with intelligence (a developed language and manufactured tools for example). There are no animals close to this at the moment, however.

    As for making generalisations, you can't make an argument based on (fictional) extreme cases. When discussing the deaths of so many billions of animals, one must speak in a general way.
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    (Original post by Gavzzz)
    I am not disputing that a lot of cruelty occurs in farming, I am saying that as we have evolved as omnivores. Meat is what the majority of people eat and that isn't going to change very soon if ever. The demand for meat means we need to use these farming methods and unfortunately most people are not going to be overly troubled by it.

    Basically, this is the world we live in so either go on some campaign to make everyone vegans or learn to live with it.
    Stupid assertions are stupid.

    Firstly our being omnivores has nothing to do with this situation.
    Nor is any part of any of this post related to the thread, please go back and read the OP.

    The demand for meat means that we want animals to be farmed (I'm not really included in that 'we').
    We need farming on the condition of getting that meat.
    It does not say that we need meat to survive.

    And it's not an issue of farming methods, it's an issue of if it is justified to kill animals, if it is justified to beat animals up, if it is justified to do those things to animals, what stops it from being justified to do those things to the marginal cases.

    Lastly, your last paragraph is retarded as hell.
    I disagree with something.
    I'm talking about that something.
    I'm hoping people review their actions and possibly change them.
    That in itself could be seen as part of a campaign. Even if it is not I am allowed to have these opinions/beliefs.
    It is not an "either/or" scenario.
    Just because the world is on way it does not follow that it ought to be that way, or that there are no prescriptions to change it.
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    (Original post by OMGWTFBBQ)
    First, humans are more intelligent than chickens. That isn't unfounded. That's true.
    SOME.
    It is unfounded in that, it is not a species divide. Some humans are, some humans are not. To claim all are is an unfounded generalisation.
    [/quote]
    You will never find a human which is less intelligent than a chicken - even the most severely retarded. To save us discussing euthanasia, ignore the brain-dead.
    So I will, bust I have to ignore the ones I will?
    Second, there are no marginal cases. That there is a sliding scale, rather than a black-and-white filter, does not follow. Humans are more intelligent than all other animals by a long shot.
    Again, this isn't true. The very fact that it is a sliding scale backs that up. We are not born 'intelligent'. That comes with time, if we're lucky.
    By intelligence, I mean a developed language, social structure, use of tools and technology. Yes, I accept that chimps are more developed along these lines than, say, chickens. But compared to us they are nowhere close. It is not unreasonable to claim that these have no notable intelligence.
    Not all humans have those things, from babies to some of the retarded and brain damaged.
    Your post would have weight if we ever discovered an animal/alien with intelligence (a developed language and manufactured tools for example). There are no animals close to this at the moment, however.
    So those are the criteria for the treatment of beings that can perceive pain?
    Moreover as stated, the marginal cases do exist.
    As for making generalisations, you can't make an argument based on (fictional) extreme cases. When discussing the deaths of so many billions of animals, one must speak in a general way.
    Obviously there are other options available to us. And we can talk about individual cases.
    Based on those (not necessarily just those) we can then question whether those billions of deaths and the suffering those animals go through is justified.
    Moreover we can ask if it is right for the marginal cases (again, they do exist, you find me a 1 day year old with developed language and social structures, and please argue that all brain damaged people have those things) to be excluded from such an industry based on morality.
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    Do all your threads involve making meat eaters feel bad?

    You try to force your beliefs on others all the bloody time in any thread vaguely related to vegetarianism, veganism or animal rights.

    Go away and eat leaves in silence.
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    (Original post by Kaykiie)
    Do all your threads involve making meat eaters feel bad?

    You try to force your beliefs on others all the bloody time in any thread vaguely related to vegetarianism, veganism or animal rights.

    Go away and eat leaves in silence.
    If you would bother to click on my profile and post stalk me you'd see, obviously not all of my posts are related to animals.
    I see no reason to stop posting. The only reason you're posting is to try and demonise me, if you don't like a thread, you don't have to post in it. At the very least you could post on topic. Stop trolling me and piss off until you can be bothered to reply on topic. And try to post without making idiotic statements (like the one in the middle of this post).
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Stupid assertions are stupid.

    Firstly our being omnivores has nothing to do with this situation.
    Nor is any part of any of this post related to the thread, please go back and read the OP.

    The demand for meat means that we want animals to be farmed (I'm not really included in that 'we').
    We need farming on the condition of getting that meat.
    It does not say that we need meat to survive.

    And it's not an issue of farming methods, it's an issue of if it is justified to kill animals, if it is justified to beat animals up, if it is justified to do those things to animals, what stops it from being justified to do those things to the marginal cases.

    Lastly, your last paragraph is retarded as hell.
    I disagree with something.
    I'm talking about that something.
    I'm hoping people review their actions and possibly change them.
    That in itself could be seen as part of a campaign. Even if it is not I am allowed to have these opinions/beliefs.
    It is not an "either/or" scenario.
    Just because the world is on way it does not follow that it ought to be that way, or that there are no prescriptions to change it.

    Can not be bothered any more you are obviously not someone who listens. I am saying that this the world we live in, yes its not perfect, so do something something about it!
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    (Original post by Gavzzz)
    Can not be bothered any more you are obviously not someone who listens. I am saying that this the world we live in, yes its not perfect, so do something something about it!
    I am listening it's you're not making any sense. It's as if through this thread I've said "oh I'm not doing anything about it".
    Firstly this thread isn't about me doing or not doing anything about it, it's a question of if there is an inconsistency or justification.
    Secondly I already am doing things about it. One could even claim this thread in itself is one of those things.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    If you would bother to click on my profile and post stalk me you'd see, obviously not all of my posts are related to animals.
    I see no reason to stop posting. The only reason you're posting is to try and demonise me, if you don't like a thread, you don't have to post in it. At the very least you could post on topic. Stop trolling me and piss off until you can be bothered to reply on topic. And try to post without making idiotic statements (like the one in the middle of this post).
    Oh don't try to deny it. You've tried to make me convert to veganism a ton of times.

    Just accept that not everybody wants to eat plants to survive. You can eat what you like, let us eat what we like in peace.
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    (Original post by Kaykiie)
    Oh don't try to deny it. You've tried to make me convert to veganism a ton of times.

    Just accept that not everybody wants to eat plants to survive. You can eat what you like, let us eat what we like in peace.
    To deny what? That I'm interested in debating?
    I don't try and 'make people convert'.
    You could say that about anything, honestly the meaningless tripe you're prepared to talk about.
    You see a thread to do with animals, philosophy, and me as the OP and immediately feel what? A need to 'crusade' against me? Is this your way of trying to take control because you feel guilty or something? If you don't like my threads don't read them, but don't try and preach to me because you don't agree with my opinions.
    Argue with them on a logical basis but don't troll me like some needy stalker.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    You see a thread to do with animals, philosophy, and me as the OP and immediately feel what? A need to 'crusade' against me? Is this your way of trying to take control because you feel guilty or something? If you don't like my threads don't read them, but don't try and preach to me because you don't agree with my opinions.
    Argue with them on a logical basis but don't troll me like some needy stalker.
    Well actually yes, you feel the need to wade into other threads with your unwanted 'tripe' so I decided to do the same in this one.

    I don't feel guilty, if I did then I'd surely stop eating meat and dairy products, wouldn't I?

    Have you even met yourself? All you do is try to make people feel bad for not being vegan. When people tell you that they try to eat free range and try to use products that haven't been the result of animal harm you tell them that that isn't good enough.

    I'm not trolling, you know that. I'm simply disagreeing with all your self righteousness on the matter at hand. Don't flatter yourself, if this thread hadn't appeared in the discussions I wouldn't have commented.
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    either way its wrong, neither can really speak for themselves. if you see how battery farmed chickens are if they ever get released its horrible, theyre acid burnt and have no feathers from stress plucking themselves
    but i like animals
    if someone pissed me off id beat them up,
    i think this was more about the point of the treatment? eating animals isnt reaallyyy justified but then again animals eat other animals.. humans attacking other humans..naah, not right
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    (Original post by Kaykiie)
    Well actually yes, you feel the need to wade into other threads with your unwanted 'tripe' so I decided to do the same in this one.

    I don't feel guilty, if I did then I'd surely stop eating meat and dairy products, wouldn't I?

    Have you even met yourself? All you do is try to make people feel bad for not being vegan. When people tell you that they try to eat free range and try to use products that haven't been the result of animal harm you tell them that that isn't good enough.

    I'm not trolling, you know that. I'm simply disagreeing with all your self righteousness on the matter at hand. Don't flatter yourself, if this thread hadn't appeared in the discussions I wouldn't have commented.
    Okay firstly, free range contains a lot of animal harm. If you would care to do the simpliest bit of research you'd learn this.

    Secondly feeling guilty about something =/= stopping doing it.

    Thirdly, if you don't like my posts disagree with them on a logical basis, not on their chosen content unless it isn't relevant to a thread, and if it isn't relevant you have to argue why it isn't relevant if I disagree.

    Fourthly, almost anything that anyone says can be called "self righteous" in one way or another, stop using idiotic language that means nothing in an attempt to colour the topic of this thread which has been laid out and very clear.

    Fifthly, I do not control what you feel, if you feel guilty over what I say that is your problem. But I do not make you feel one way or another. That's your projection onto what I say. Issues like that are your issues not mine, and I have no duty nor any kind of responsibility to sort them out.

    Sixthly, if this thread hadn't appear in the 'discussions' TSR would have be being faulty in some way, the fact that you decided to click on it in full view that I am the OP and later comment on it was your choice. Likewise you could put me on your ignore list and choose not to click.

    Seventhly, you haven't applied any logical issues nor empirical mis-truths in my posts. You have said nothing relevant on this particular topic. So I will ask once more that you post on topic, explain how any of your posts have been on topic, or stop posting. These are basic things, you shouldn't need them explained to you in order to understand them.
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    I personally value a human life (and human well-being) far far more than animal life and well-being. So yes I think beating up a human is far worse.

    I don 't condone "beating up" or inflicting suffering on any animal, so I choose to be a vegetarian; however, I'd feel less bad about eating pork than I would another human.
 
 
 
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