Turn on thread page Beta

Asiatic lion vs Bengal tiger watch

  • View Poll Results: Who would win?
    Asiatic lion
    Bengal tiger

    • Thread Starter

    Modern 20th century Science and Experts:

    Animal face off:

    The cast of lion vs tiger animal face off:

    Frank mendel:

    Scott H woodward

    "There were other stuff that they did not show," said Woodward. "It was inappropriate though, it was some old footage where they threw a tiger and a lion into a pit. The lion was more dominant while the tiger just gave up. None of the cats were interested in finishing the other off."

    In addition to Mendel and Woodward, the UB team developing the Vertebrate Analyzer includes Kevin Chugh, Ph.D., NYSCEDII research associate for visualization; Kevin Hulme, Ph.D., NYSCEDII's research associate for engineering design; Venkat Krovi, Ph.D., assistant professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering; David R. Pendergast, Ph.D., professor of physiology and biophysics, and Abani Patra, Ph.D., associate professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering.

    Samantha Stephens

    A Zoologist from New Zealand for Animal Planet, said:

    "A male lion spends the first 4 years of its life just developing him self into a fighting machine, its his whole focus fighting to take over a pride, defending it for others." Dave Salmoni a tiger guy, later agreed with her.

    David salmoni

    He's a zoologist, a renowned animal trainer, a television presenter and a producer with his own South Africa-based production company, his love for animals. In 1998, Salmoni began his apprenticeship as an animal trainer at Bowmanville Zoological Park near Toronto, one of the world's largest humane-credited providers of highly trained animals. Salmoni focused on large cat training and has been training large cats as well as other predators since then.Salmoni was offered a life-changing opportunity to be the first to travel with two captive-bred Bengal tigers to Africa and train them how to hunt and survive in the wild. Following this experience, Salmoni lived among African lions for three months in an attempt to show that lions and humans can co exsist in the same area.

    David salmoni says:

    He’d give the edge to a lion in a fight with a tiger, even with a 150 lb advantage.


    “To get a tiger to want to fight you is pretty hard,” says Salmoni. “Tigers don’t like to fight. They hunt to kill and eat. That’s it.” Unlike lions, which grow up in groups and are used to sparring, tigers are solitary animals, responsible for their own food and survival, Salmoni says. They will take the risk to fight only “if they feel they have to.


    Isabell Thomas

    Each book in this high-interest series compares two exciting animals and looks at how they are equipped to survive and defend themselves against predators in the wild. Each spread focuses on one particular aspect of the animals, such as teeth, claws, speed, endurance, camouflage, habitat, predator/prey relationships, or hunting techniques.


    Elizabeth marshall thomas

    One of the most widely read American anthropologists, Elizabeth Marshall Thomas has observed dogs, cats, and elephants during her half-century-long career. Her book on cats, Tribe of Tiger, was also an international bestseller. She lives in Peterborough, New Hampshire, on her family's former farm, where she observes deer, bobcats, bear, and many other species of wildlife.

    Marshall says:

    "In contrast, these same tigers--even the biggest and feircest of them all seemed in mortal fear of a certain lion who belonged to another trainer but was sometimes quarted with them. Never did these tigers and his lion get into the ring together, yet the mere presence of the lion in the tiger barn could get the tigers bouncing off the walls of their cages."
    http://books.google.com/books?id=...cWdiALksoGgDg&ved=0C D4Q6AEwBA

    Dr. Antle Bhagavan of Big Cat Rescue

    "You gotta have mild-mannered lions and tigers," Antle said. "Normally the lion will kill the tigers. "These are just some of my observations over the last 24 years as I have trained some 400 big cats and met hundreds more. By big cats, I only mean the Panthera family (lions, tigers, leopard, jaguars and hybrids) all the rest are in a different category and the small cats (including cheetah and pumas) are in a different class. "They will kill you, but it is not with the same intent and aggressive behavior. Male lions are 100 times harder to train than tigers.


    Niel Mcdonald Grandmaster strategist:

    By the way, if a lion fought a tiger in the wild, who would win? According to muscle mass and heaviness you would put your money on the tiger. But lions live in social groups so they know how to fight against similarly armed animals. The lions skill would most likely prove he is indeed the king of the jungle.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=R5ikAgAAQBAJ&pg=RA2-PA48&dq=%22lion+fought+a+tiger%2 2++india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RjKvVJy1N 5WwogSwhIKACg&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA

    Tigers are bigger than lions, but lions may be stronger. Who would win in a fight? Most experts say that the lion would kill the tiger.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Most+experts+M+say+t hat+the+lion+would+kill+the+tige r%22&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=FH2vVN6qL8jyoATYjIC wBQ&sa=N

    Andy learned alot today about how tough a tiger is, but if a tiger and a lion get into a fight, which one would win? Anmimal experts say a lion will beat a tiger any day of the week.


    "Which is the stronger — the lion or the tiger?" Would it not be interesting to discover that "contrary to popular belief, the tiger because of the herculean structure of its frontal muscles is considered the stronger, , just as he is larger and heavier; and yet in a combat between lion and tiger the lion invariably wins chiefly because of his mane, which serves both as visor and coat of mail, protecting both face and throat
    https://www.google.com/search?q=%22coat+of+mail%2C+prot ecting+both+face%22++throat&tbo= p&tbm=bks&num=10

    While polls show that most people consider the species to beat in an animal-versus-animal throwdown to be a lion or tiger, with much back and forth about which of these would win, and for the record its probably the lion…
    https://books.google.com/books?id=ljqRVptXG-sC&pg=PA30&dq=%22would+win%22+li on+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fvyyVNyVN JKzoQTogoGABw&ved=0CBIQ6AEwBg

    In the wild, fights will not all be fair, sometimes males will fight females, we can see what happens when both genders clash:

    Detroit vs Sleika

    Detroit vs Empress

    .Memphis kills Sehka:

    The perils of circus life proved too much today for Sehka, a three year old Bengal tigress in Clyde Beatty’s act with Cole Brothers, She died of wounds suffered when she was attacked by Memphis, a lion in the act. during a performance Wednesday night.


    Prince kills trudy


    He preferred jungle cats to those born in captivity, which he thought were spoiled, and his courageat working with them became legendary. In 1928 at Kokomo a female tiger landed on top of himonly to be killed by a lion in an ensuing 25-minute fight that saved Beatty's life. In 1932 he wasseriously wounded when mauled by one of his most powerful lions and for a time lay near death with a fever that peaked at 106 degrees. H

    (Bottom of the page)

    Samson kills tigresss in her sleeping den:

    Gracie vs Tommy --- Sammy vs Nelly:

    Big leo vs Old girl:

    Annie vs Romeo:


    A LION KILLS A TIGER. "The lion trainer forgot to lock the door in the partition between the lions and a female tiger that we had fast bought, after his rehearshal at JUayenna, O., and the tigress pushed open and walked into the lion's den. A terrible fight followed, in which one of the lions disemboweled and fatally Injured her; in a-fair fight she could have whipped him, for the tiger Is a more courageous animal.

    So when lion and tigers once heavily co-existed in india, most likely encounters were similar when tigers strayed into the same conjoining rivers of lions.

    No useful purpose is served, and the outcome is nearly always tragic, as when the lion killed its tigress spouse in the Bloemfontein Zoo. In 1952, four ligers (the result of a union between a lion and a tigress) were born in the Pretoria Zoo, but https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22No+use ful+purpose+is+served%2C+and+the +outcome+is+nearly+always+tragic %2C+as+when+the+lion+killed+its+ tigress+spouse+in+the+Bloemfonte in+Zoo.+In+1952%2C+four+ligers+% 28the+result+of+a+union+between+ a+lion+and+a+tigress%29+were+bor n+in+the+Pretoria+Zoo%2C+but%22

    The casualties ;were two dead tigers, unmercifully slaughtered by the leonine bad men

    Well a tiger has the benefit of a higher developed instinct for stealth but in a 1v1 this won't prove much of a benefit. The mane will help the lion because it's distracting and harder for the tiger to seen where his skin is. I am not sure of other biological differences but their biology would determine who wins the fight.
    • Thread Starter

    (Original post by The_Last_Melon)
    Well a tiger has the benefit of a higher developed instinct for stealth but in a 1v1 this won't prove much of a benefit. The mane will help the lion because it's distracting and harder for the tiger to seen where his skin is. I am not sure of other biological differences but their biology would determine who wins the fight.
    (as many biologist have stated) Its difficult to tell them apart when the skin is removed, but there are anatomical differences, tigers are built long and narrow (elongated) , while lions are built short and compact. Lions have evolved shorther in length due to the need for the back side to be protected by hyena, they are also similar to hyena in built, tigers are longer while lions are taller at shoulder. The tiger has more power in the hind legs, and lions have more power in the front.Tigers are better grapplers, while lions are better strikers. I agree that the mane is the advantage. The lionesses only choose the lions with the biggest manes because it offers up better protection for their cubs...

    The mane has like ten added benefits in a fight:

    1.) Erases visibility of the trachea making it difficult to see the wind pipe.
    2.) Protects the under side from being disemboweled,
    3.) The mane acts as a shield to sheath claws and bites,
    4.) Acts as a cushion to soften blunt force blows,
    5.) Is like a net to catch and tangle their adversary claws rendering them useless while the lion can still fully use his.
    6.) Intimidates his adversary in thinking hes a 1,000 lb beast
    7.) Keeps his front limbs and striking arms in prime condition away from cold or heat.
    8.) Can suffocate his enemy when they bite it, they'd get pounds of hair in their mouths.
    9.) Also protects the back-spinal cord from being broken or lacerated
    10.) Protects from multiple attackers fighting an attacked from multiple angles at once.

    Hence a big maned lion doesnt look like a cat, he looks like his title, beast:

    King of beast.Tigers are no different than any other cat, jaguar, puma, leopard, snow/clouded leopard, cheetah, house cat ect...all fall in line with the same life style, hunt...hide/sleep...hunt...hide, hunt... hide. Lions dont hide, they sleep in the open, they fight, hunt, mate and sleep...that is their life style. Tigers fight around once a year, lions fight every week.

    Lions were abundant in india in clives conquest


    (Original post by Sword of Justice)
    - snip -
    On the most part, even among some experts on the indian lion, some say that the tiger is the main reason for the asiatic lion for going extinct, this is highly doughtful, since lions live in large groups, a tiger will be contending on most cases with a coalition of lions or a pride, as lions are gregarious animals, if that were true, then there should be many accounts of tigers killing multiple lions at once even in captivity, but the records dont show that:
    - snip -
    Well the tiger wouldn't need to defeat and kill lions to make them extinct - it'd just have to outcompete them for some essential resource (typically food) due to competitive exclusion

    a fairly familiar example in the UK is the near extinction of red squirrels due to the introduction of the grey squirrel. This isn't because the greys kill the reds (though a lot of people believe this)

    didn't read everything tbh - apologies if you have mentioned this.
    • Thread Starter

    (Original post by Joinedup)
    Well the tiger wouldn't need to defeat and kill lions to make them extinct - it'd just have to outcompete them for some essential resource (typically food) due to competitive exclusiona fairly familiar example in the UK is the near extinction of red squirrels due to the introduction of the grey squirrel. This isn't because the greys kill the reds (though a lot of people believe this)didn't read everything tbh - apologies if you have mentioned this.
    No biggie, from everyones understanding, lions are gregarious:

    So how can something solitary out compete something gregarious? Lions live in coalitions and prides, are you suggesting a single tiger will either wipe out all the buffalo before the lion gets to them or are you insinuating that tigers would out muscle a group of 20+ lions who on average are just as heavy, more combative, louder, tougher and just willing to fight anything that poses a threat against them?

    I just dont see it

    How is it leopards have maintained a give an take from tigers and still flourish with the striped one, yet lions were completely out competed by tigers? The facts just dont add up:


    Lions are hyper aggressive to other predators, it makes no sense why a tiger would be the victor in a fight or out compete lions when all the main biologist such as sunqist, sankhala, and many others state tigers hunt things in the 100-200 kg weight range, while lions in the 500-1,000 kg weight range.

    Some noted from wildlife staff Singh hari shan

    Tigers could defend themselves, but to what degree? Tiger cubs would be targeted too, as male lions are notorious cub killers in the prone tendency to rule and dominate undisputed. If tiger cubs are targeted heavily an adult tigers can do almost nothing to defend them, how can the tiger flourish in the lions area? There numbers would be constantly going down while lions are gregarious, so all the time the cubs will be protected against competing predators.Again it just doesnt add up, its a common notion by people who study the lion who said they fell to hunters, not tigers. There also isnt a single account of a bengal killing a wild asiatic lion.

    Larry Allen Dean

    There just aren't that many male lion acts anymore. There are numerous reasons, 1 main reason in my book is breeding,when the Chipperfields brought the drive through safari park concept to America, lion breeding went down the tubes. second Lions are social animals vs. tigers being naturaly solitary animals. this has a great effect on their attitudes and habits in life. Lions grow up fighting for position in their social group, both as punks and then later in bachelor groups.They seem to truly enjoy fighting and losing has little meaning to it. A limping lion that can make it to the group feed can survive. The tiger on the other hand is solitary basically from the time of puberty. Even small injuries can effect their ability to hunt, thus meaning death by starvation. Consequently, I believe, tigers are not as willing to quarrel over insignificant insults to their social rules.As a seperate specie we make many social errors,in their world. Tigers seem to be more studious and manipulative of their environment (heirarchy) knowing this is very useful in manipulating the learning processes.They seem to me to be more thoughtful, being less willing to be argumentative, just for arguments sake. Male lions seem to have more testicle to testicle conversations, so it helps to have a pair so as not to get left out of the conversation. So where male lions like to fight more often, tigers are more treacherous when they do decide to fight.


    Like he said, lions love to fight, tigers only hide most of the time, thats why they have stripes to better hide, lions fight week to

    week:First week: lions fight:

    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... 3%83%B3&page=2
    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... 3%83%B3&page=3
    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... 3%83%B3&page=4

    Second week: Lion fights again:
    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... 3%83%B3&page=5
    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... 3%83%B3&page=6
    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... 3%83%B3&page=7

    Third week: Lions fight more:
    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... 3%83%B3&page=8
    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... %83%B3&page=18
    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... %83%B3&page=23
    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... %83%B3&page=27

    Forth week: Still fighting:
    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... %83%B3&page=28
    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... %83%B3&page=30
    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... %83%B3&page=35
    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... %83%B3&page=36

    End of the month, and still fighting:
    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... %83%B3&page=38
    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... %83%B3&page=38
    http://anothertequila.blog114.fc2.co... %83%B3&page=39

    (Notice only males usually have all the scars, the females dont usually do heavy hitting as much as the male

    Lions all through the wildlife photography always show a dominat old male littered with battle scars, thats because they fight through out their lives, tigers are rarely seen with any marks on their faces.[/i]
    Upon observation, the tiger does not fight as freque

    States again: "Tigers whos solitary life style (Un-like lions)...does not fight for territorial rights"~The Sydney Morning Herald - Sep 10, 19783 noted biologist, Schaller, sidensticker and mcdoughl all said that tigers fighting in the wild is rare:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=kZmnqpT6bycC&pg=PA241&d q=But+schaller+work+in+Kanha+and +mcdougal+and+seidensticker#v=on epage&q=But%20schaller%20work%20 in%20Kanha%20and%20mcdougal%20an d%20seidensticker&f=fals


    A key factor stated of bengal tigers by Sunquist's consenses upon studying them in the wild, is that tigers bare'd no scars, indicating fights are rare:
    http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/.../NoevidenceoffightingfoundinChitw antigers.jpg

    Even more so being solitary, the tiger cannot afford to get injured, while the lion being social can rely on his Pride to nurse him back to health, indicating one animal will be more passive (The tiger), while the lion will be more agressive:
    http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/...ittleevidenceoffightingfoundb etweentigers.jpg

    Because tigers are territorial and habits and track patterns of study animals were well known, it was possible to detect the presence of an individual by its tracks, even when collars were non-functional (Yudakov & Nikolaev, 1987; Kerley et al., 2002). It is possible that in some cases the collar was destroyed, for example, in a fight with another tiger that resulted in the collared animal’s death. However, we never detected the death of a subadult or adult tiger from predation or fighting. We detected fighting between tigers only once, and of 53 tigers handled, we only once found scaring suggestive of fighting.

    http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...b1336b18000000So when lions and tigers meet in the wild, it will be the equivelent of havinga trained fighter go against a someone who has fought almost no one in their lives:

    Tolson was the professor, poet and writer portrayed by Denzel Washington inThe Great Debaters , which is based on a true story from 1935 America.Who stated:“Tigers kill, tigers die, even on the birthday of Christ the King. But lions, fighting in solidarity together, are the King of Beasts. In the end, the lion rules the jungle.http://www.marcnorton.us/93588/102643.html
    • Thread Starter

    So far:

    Voters for lionsbluemadhatter ,theuglyfish

    Voters for tigersCollege_Dropout Eternalflames , fandom-queen @uhabib uhabib

    So far I have yet to see the people who vote for the tiger to have brought fourth an argument in why they think a tiger would win, I would have thought the bengal would win too, thats before when the web use to state that tigers dwarf asiatic lions...but there doesnt seem to be any weight advantage for either or now, atleast on average. It would be interesting what facts can be presented toward the tigers case.From what I see on record, it seems the tiger is very vulnerable at the neck:


    Tiger made a spring at Sylvenus, and just when his gun missed fire and he thought it all up with him, the lion leaped in the air caught the tiger by the neck, and killed it. he said after that he never could be induced to take the life of a lion, the kindest and gentlest of wild beast

    Lioness kills male tiger.The lioness was the aggressor and attacked first, fastening her teeth with a vice like grip into the neck of the tigerThe Singapore Free Press and Mercantile Advertiser (1884-1942), 11 August 1924, Page 6

    it states here, in a fight between the two, the lion is protected at the neck because of his mane:

    INDIAN FIELD SPORTS. (Extract of a Letter, dated Meerut, June 29, 1822.)

    I went expressly for lions, which are found beyond Hamsi, on the borders of the desert. I killed two lions, four lionesses, a tiger and tigress, and a leopard. Such sport, however, is certainly not sufficient to recompence a man for the vile climate he gets into in that part of the country. One of the lionesses had two young ones, which I brought away. They are quite tame, and are now running about my house. I do not think that the lion is so powerful an animal as the tiger, but he fights much better. A tiger will make his attack, and then retire; but a lion never retreats; he fights until he is killed. I believe I have now done with shooting. I can boast what I believe few others can: having shot an elephant dead with a single ball; twice killed tigers, right and left; and once lions right and left. On looking over my game-book, I find that I have killed, since the regiment has been at this station, two elephants, two lions, four lionesses, seventy-two tigers and tigresses, and caught a young elephant, a young lion and lioness, and a young tiger.
    https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA330&dq=meerut+india+l ion+tiger&id=16ZFAQAAMAAJ#v=onep age&q=meerut india lion tiger&f=false

    Sword of Justice
    I clicked tiger first but then I read the rest of what you put here, and thought oh ****, I should have put Asiatic lion instead. So I didn't come back to this thread lol, but yeah I've changed my mind to lion now.
    • Thread Starter

    (Original post by Eternalflames)
    Sword of Justice
    I clicked tiger first but then I read the rest of what you put here, and thought oh ****, I should have put Asiatic lion instead. So I didn't come back to this thread lol, but yeah I've changed my mind to lion now.
    whoa, thats interesting.

    (Original post by Sword of Justice)
    whoa, thats interesting.
    Would you say the Asiatic lion is stronger too?

    The thing is the Asiatic lion is so rare now, and there's so much more focus on tigers with charities like 'save the tiger' you forget that lions are even in Asia lol
    But with all the info you put here, I have to say the lion would win against the Bengal tiger.
    • Thread Starter

    (Original post by Eternalflames)
    Would you say the Asiatic lion is stronger too?
    Well thats what I'm trying to figure out, I dont think anyone can be conclusive unless its really one sided, theres only a few accounts of specifically asiatic lions winning, so more of those type of accounts should be found.

    The thing is the Asiatic lion is so rare now, and there's so much more focus on tigers with charities like 'save the tiger' you forget that lions are even in Asia lol
    But with all the info you put here, I have to say the lion would win against the Bengal tiger.
    I agree...but its difficult to find genuine accounts, unless people are actually willing to believe that a single tiger killed 31 lions lol If that story were true, we would have thousands of archives on it, both in english an indian, songs would be sung of this power, his photo would be plastered everywhere, he would be universal to the world other than just the few articles that repeat the same stuff with genuine root source.

    Yes the asiatic lion seems to be in an oblivious state both here in america and in india too, if not the world. I think statistics like size, weight, length an prowess should be known, but not the main focus, the actual accounts would tell us more of who would win. When people debate human boxers, they dont keep saying mike tyson is the biggest, strongest, fastest, biggest, knuckles, biggest skull, tallest fighter in the world, so repeating the tiger is bigger, stronger, faster ect wont change anything...more accounts would show us more likely who would come out on top as they might look similar but they are worlds apart physiologically and in levels of skill, gameness all in fighting ability, an also slightly built different for different tasks...if this was a leaping contest or a swimming contest the tiger would win but this is a fighting contest...so tryna see whos the better fighter would need conflict accounts.

    Again, with weights...it seems no modern genuine records of authority shows a siberian tiger weighs in the 550+ lb range:


    Ph.D Biologist Dale miquelle


    (Compliments of Zetaboard member Diane)


    -Kunali, a 300-pound, 7-year-old Siberian tiger
    -This 300 pound, 20 year old male tiger comes to the Tallahassee

    And yet everywhere on the web, fans lead in siberian tigers can average 800 lbs, 12 feet long, an kill bull elephants.
    We live in basically in the time of video, so I dont see why more weights on video shouldnt be brought:

    As pieces of paper can be edited by anyone. You cant edit the video.

    Another asiatic lion fight:

    Indian ruler Shah jahan:

    Shah Jahan/shah choram:


    (Smaller Asiatic lion stale mates bengal tiger)


    Jean Albert de Mandelslo, a native of Holstein, who travelled in the East about the year 1638-9, gives the following account of some combats between wild beasts, exhibited before the Grand Mogul on his son's birth-day:

    "This monarch first made a savage bull fight a lion; and then ordered a battle between a lion and a tiger. As soon as the tiger perceived the lion, he went directly to him, and struggling with all his might, overthrew him. Every one thought the tiger would have little trouble in killing his adversary; but the lion rose immediately, and seized the tiger so forcibly by the throat, that it was believed he was dead. He disengaged himself, however, and the combat was renewed with as much fury as ever, until fatigue separated them.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=yj8FAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA215&lpg=PA2 15&dq=Grand+mogul+wild+beast&sou rce=bl&ots=r6HSgJMu2k&sig=xsq0g6 g_OpgPnRIjDWUI9HvL73Q&hl=en&sa=X &ei=EGVTUqq2G-iviQKYrIC4DA&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA

    The lion was only gone from india because lions were more targeted than tigers:

    In the dry parts of Western India, the lion rather than the tiger was the main target of the hunt:


    We dont know if the asiatic lion was just as big as the african lion, they could be small due to no natural selection process, if all tigers were wiped out an only sundarban tigers existed, than tigers would only average 80 kg...so we could be looking at the smaller end of asiatic lions, most who hunted them say they were alot bigger in northern india uttar predesh, they say the lion had a large mane just as the african lion, an just as big with being more bulky, so they could have varied depending how big/well their prey was to sustain large sizes, but even if the tiger is truly larger, than its still quite amazing such a smaller animal can kill or even stalemate a tiger, which proves again, the size statistics would hardly matter.


    (1 9 3 4)

    Oddly enough, it develops that cats captured in real jungle are far more satisfactory for use in an animal act than cats which have been raised in captivity. "It's like this," Beatty explains."You take a lion, say, that has been born in captivity. A lion cub is woolly and cute and attractive, and everybody likes to fondle it and pick it up and pet it. You can do that, you know, with a lion cub when it's little, if it was born in a cage. "W^ELL, what happens? The lion grows " up used to such"treatment. It gets petted and fondled right up to the time it's an adult. And because it does, it gets thoroughly used to human beings. It loses its fear of them. A lion raised that way has no more of that 'instinctive' fear of a man than a dog has. "By and fey you get a lion of that kind in the cage as part of your act.Now every cat has its off days, same as anybody else, when.it feels surly, or restless, or peevish. Suppose you've got a tame lion that feels that way--and they all do, now and then, because of the wild streak in them. You've got nothing to cow him with. He isn't afraid of you. He's used to human beings, and the mere fact that you're a man doesn't bother him. So, if he takes the notion to, hell go for you, and then you're in for plenty of trouble."With a jungle cat, it's different.. No matter how long they're trained, they never quite get used to human beings. They never quite get rid of that inborn awe in the presence of human beings. Of course, they can lose it, temporarily, in a fight; if they get angry enough, or nervous enough, they can forget about it for the time being. But it's always there, in the bade of their minds, and when they try to start anything with you you can usually remind them of it. "That's why I prefer to use jungle cats. 1 couid raise tame ones easily enough. As a matter of fact., I haveraised some, and I've used one or two in my act. But the wild ones are a lot safer to handle." A SK Beatty which is the more dangerous animal to handle, the lion or the tiger, and he'll tell you it's pretty much a toss-up. "Lions will gang up on you," he says reflectively. "If you're in the cage with them and one of them comes for you, the others are pretty likely to join in on it. A lion won't sit on its pedestal and watch a fight. It has to get in it. "Tigers are just the opposite. If you have a fuss with a tiger, the other tigers in the cage are apt to stay on the sidelines and look on. They don't gang up. That part of it makes tigers simpler to handle. "On the other hand, lions are bluffers, and tigers aren't. A lion will try you out, to see how far he can go with you.. He'll start to make a rush for yon, for instance, to see How you'll take it. If you stand your ground and don't show, any fear, he'll probably figure that you aren't scared of him, and he'll back down, "But the tiger won't do that. He doesn't bluff. Either he goes for you or he doesn't. If he starts to. he goes through with it. The time to stop him is before he starts, "The tiger starts a fight faster than the lion. He rushes right in and gives everything he's got right away. But he hasn't got the lion's sticking powers. If things aren't going his way, after a minute or so, he's pretty likely to quit. "The Hon. on the other hand, can take it better. He doesn't start as fast as the figer does, but he lasts longer. He's a little like * bulldog he takes hold and doesn't let go


    It seems it is easy for a lion kill a tiger because the tiger lacks a mane, the mane seems to be truly a protecting factor because hardly any accounts of a well maned lion being killed by anything exist.
    • Thread Starter

    Dave hoover

    Bert Nelson:

    Mr. Nelson is the wild-animal trainer of the Hagenbeck-Wallace and orepaugh- Sells Circus...For seventeen years he has been socking lions & tigers on the proboscis... Mr. Nelson tickled the nose of Old Mom, an angry-looking lionessas with the point of a stick and jumped back as Old Mom, snarling enthusiastically, reached out through the cage to claw him" A short time before Mr. Nelson's twenty-four lions and tigers slid lithe-ly into their large central cage, there to snarl and roar and slap sharp- clawed paws at their trainer as he jumped them from pedestal to pedestal. Great Theory" For Some One Else SCARS ARE REMINDER Bert Nelson Also Discredits Belief That Tigers Can Vanquish Lords Of Jungle (Continued /rom Paffe 22) for their little while in the rings and the arena....You never know when one of these babies will go crazy on your hands," said Mr. Nelson. Tigers easier to train, too, he said. Lions Always Beat Tigers "I've seen lots of gang fights between lions and tigers-- we had a me this spring when we opened in Chicago," he asserted...The tiger always attacks the lion by rolling over on his back and going for the throat When he goes for the throat he runs into a mane two or three inches thick and the same mane extends all down ie underside of the lion's body.

    ~Try To Look Cockeyed Lion In Eye? Not For Mr. Nelson The Sun - Aug 14, 193
    5I used to be a lion and tiger trainer, and the animals didn't get along," he said. "But during one performance, the animals were in heat, and the lions attacked the tigers, and some of the animals were killed."http://articles.latimes.com/1986-08-12/entertainment/ca-18814_1_wheelMarco Peter's years later
    said the tiger usually whips a lion one on one, as well he mentionedhe had only seen the tiger win two times, and it was the largest tiger against the smallest lion.With this evidence, it is for sure, in 1986, the tigers died when attacked by the lions

    It seems as its almost unanimous that the people who have mixed these two in the same arena, that the lion is the better fighter and is protected by the mane.Indian lion:

    Indian lion was found all over the plain. It is said that Akbar used to shoot lions in the Yamuna and the Chambal ravines near Agra. With the increase in human populationhttps://www.google.com/search?tbm=bk...+vegetation%22hunted more often than the tiger because he was out in the open:https://books.google.com/books?id=V2...0tiger&f=false

    Emperor Firoze, across the country, from the Jumna, at Firozeabad, to Dehlee, for the purpose of supplying the cultivation of this part of the country with water. Fraser had received intelligence of both a lion and a tiger being in this jungle,https://books.google.com/books?id=7x...0tiger&f=false

    The hairs of the mane are 10 inches to a foot long in some Indian lions.... About 20 years ago lions were common near Mount Abu, several were shot near Gwalior, Goona, and Kola, and a few still exist-ed near Lalitpur, between Bangor and Jhansi. One is said to ' have been killed near Gaps»: in 1873. In 1864 one was killed near Sheorajpur, 25 miles west of Allahabad; and when the railway was being made from Allahabad to J ubbulpoor, in 1866, a fine lion, with a good mane, was shot by two of the engineers near the 80th milestone from AllahabadAbout 1830 lions were common near Ahmedabad. Several years previously, in the early part of the century, lions were found in Hurriana to the northward, and in Khandesh to the south, in many places in Rajputana (one was shot in 1810 within 40 miles of Kot Deji, in Sind), and eastward as far as Rewah and Palatnow. It is probable that this animal was formerly generally distributed in North-western and Central India‘. I have never heard of lions in Catch, and suspect J erdou was mistaken in supposing them to be found there.https://books.google.com/books?id=bl...20long&f=false

    The first lion I shot in the " Gheer " Forest, Kattywar, had mane eighteen inches long and tolerably full,https://books.google.com/books?id=26...0india&f=false .....

    Mr. Blyth says, there was not much difference in the development of. the mane of those two lions ; but the Persian was a much paler animal than the other. According to Mr. Warwick, 0 pair were brought as a present to hishttps://books.google.com/books?id=zo...0india&f=false

    So the indian lion in his full prowess would have a advantage over the tiger.Only in modern times fables are considered not real, but thats only because the array an range of different cultures who add in their own tales, but if we look at stuff like the Unwari suhaili, we can see lions were mentioned many times over uin indian history all the way to BC times:

    Nothing looks fable-lish about this, this looks like what now days would be called a natural history pictorial of in
    dias fauna an wildlife:

    Even the indian fable about the lion, tiger and the fo

    With it as goes while two beast lion an tiger fight for prey, the fox bares the spoils away...doesnt sound like a up made verse...sounds like confrontations between the two as far back as BC times. Look at lion and hyena conflicts, you can see the fox is there too:


    The lion was hunted more often as well because people were paid more money for the lion than the tiger:The sum they had offered for every lion and tiger shot in the country, was, I believe, twenty pounds for a lion, and fifteen for a tiger https://books.google.com/books?id=tO...0india&f=false

    Again, many literature has the lion an tiger in the same haunts:

    The tiger, the formidable tenant of the Bengal jungle, supplies the absence of the lion; and though not quite equal in strength and majesty, is still more fierce and destructive. These two mighty animals are brought into conflict in the Indian hunts.

    Hence when ever you hear a tiger is larger, it is only mentioned in length an body:

    the tiger is much larger, and often found bigger than even the lion himself; it is much slenderer also in proportion to its size, its legs shorter, and its neck and body longer. In short, of all other animals, it most resembles the cat in shape; and if we conceive the latter magnified to a very great degree, we shall have a tolerable idea of the former.fn classing carniverous animals we may place the lion foremost;* and immediately after him follows the tiger, which seems to partake of all the noxious qualities of the lion: without sharing any of his good ones. To pride, courage, and strength, the lion joins greatness, clemency, and generosity; but the tiger is fierce without provocation, and cruel without necessity. The lion seldom ravages except when excited by hunger, the tiger on the contrary, though glutted with slaughter, is not satisfied,

    Would the male tigers strength and size really matter?

    As it shows even two tigresses can kill a male tiger, more specifically sever his wind pipe, what are the odds of two lionesses, or 5 or 10 not being able to compete with a tiger. Its basically a fallacy to state the tiger drove the lion out of india with all these records to contradict its claim:

    Tigresses killing male tigers:

    1967 tigress kills male tiger protecting her cubs george schaller
    1896 tigress kills male tiger in the london zoo and eats its body charles cornish
    1985 tigress kills male tiger S kumar sanctuary of asia volume 5
    1967 wild tiger defeats male tiger sher jung tryst with tigers
    2001 saw a fight between a tiger and tigress later found the male tigers dead body J.C daniels natraj
    1984 tigress named princess kills imported wild male bengal tiger rhode island
    1981 valmik thapar sees a tiger killed by a tigress protecting her cubs
    2001 tigress kills male cage mate in elpaso zoo
    1913 tigress kills male tiger in the wild, cinncinati enquirer
    2013 chennai tigress kills mate male white tiger
    1956 two tigresses kill male bengal named rajah cinncinati zoo
    2010 Shenzen safari park tigress kills male tiger
    2012 ranthambore park male tiger steals tigresses meal and loses fight

    Leopards killing tigers:

    - 1 leopard killed a tigress in the wild (The hindu news)
    - 1 leopad killed a tiger (seen by John helliot)
    - A leopard killed a tiger (seen by Louis roth)
    - Some tigers died in a battle with leopards (by George keller)
    - A tiger died fighting a leopard in a menagerie (at Bostocks)
    - Frank buck backs the leopard and filmed a leopard besting a tiger
    - The history book on china said leopards are well known to attack tigers
    - There are several artifacts of leopards defeating tigers
    - 2 leopards fought and disembowled a tiger (saturday magazine)
    - A leopard named Puss killed a big bengal tiger caught fresh from the wild (Hernan boger)
    - A leopard named Beauty killed a noted big tiger
    - And now its noted that the rajahs of india pitted them with the leopard always winning in lucknow

    Lionesses killing and defeating tigers:

    1925 asiatic lioness kills tiger in nagpur, maharaj bagh zoo
    1903 lioness kills tiger in british menagerie
    1924 lioness kills tiger stalemating him in london
    1934 lionesss whips two bengal tigers terrell jacobs
    1936 lioness nearly kills tiger, tiger is saved by water at soles brothers circus
    1905 lioness almost kills tiger ripping him to shreds, william cartner thomas
    1995 two young asiatic lionesses kill tigress in nadankanan zoo


    As many of the cites show, the tiger is extremely vulnerable at the throat, the lion is heavily protected there. Unless people can show atleast 10 acounts of a maned male lion having his wind pipe severed, how can the tiger have any such advantage? Every one of these animals listed above, is smaller, weaker, has smaller claws than the male tiger, smaller paws, shorter in length, not as powerful, yet they all still won, all females...so how can a male lion lose more than vice versa when no female version of those animals have ever killed a big maned lion.
    • Thread Starter


    Probably the only tiger and lion reserve/zoo where they allow large amounts of lions and tigers to roam in the same sanction, they have published several films of lions and tigers sparking turf wars and have shown their capability's an prowess of fighting ability...you see edited videos from both lion and tiger fans who show momentarily high-lights of each, some saying the lions always won, some saying the tiers always won, the fact is, these people are hardly ever truthful an are basing their decisions off of an hour worth of fighting from the films, these animals have actually been there for entire decades an the leepers have seen hundreds to thousands of fights which they had to break up...heres what the owners have to say:

    (Head Zoo keeper at everland zoo Jeong sangjo)

    Everland throne was occupied by the male lion over 10 years

    Yongin Everland Zoo know what it is, who fights and lions and tigers. The grow it as a lion and a tiger.

    Once the average weight, but the lion is slightly ahead of the level, is not a decisive factor in the game. The male lion is 200kg, females 140kg, a male tiger 180kg, larger than the tiger with a female lion 130kg. Is squirming around Cedar Lake. Lion boasts a stable posture to balance the total weight placed on both front foot and back foot. While the tiger is the weight mainly because your body can soon be put on the back foot rotation jeompeuryeok is excellent. There is also a slight difference between primary weapon. If the lion is massive paws straight from the stable posture primary weapon, the tiger is swift and quick jab Tapping value. Teeth attack a decisive role when the fight is similar to both. Digging deep into the flesh with sharp fangs are costs to 3ÜB length. film Showdown of the lion and tiger tuck. See example their fighting skills and habits from jeongsangjo keepers watched their fight 24 years from Everland Zoo.

    Åü Law 1 = lion does not fight alone

    "The lion and tiger fights and wins almost lion because lions always carry around a bunch built to fight alone while the Tigers' six days in the afternoon.

    SEQ ID No. 1 zoo lion throne 'identity' is, he attacked the tiger sequence No. 2 'horong' with a female lion 'Kiara'. Rather than a one-sided fight was devastated. Tigers 'horong' This one was a lion was two. Tiger takes a defensive posture, but in vain posture lowers the bunch. Came to hit the 'id' front, 'horong' kicked the exposed flank between the forefoot to prevent this in the 'Kiara'. 'Horong' could be relevant to the ingenuity pincer of a lion. Lions are social communities that live with several generations from 1 year to 5 years of age in the wild is a strong animal. Siberian tiger solitude to live away from the hole with a large area of India to Bengal only inherently different. 20 day average of the lion, the tiger is 13 degree radiation are fighting this one goes on the lion and the tiger attack at least two groups. Especially sharp fielding lion attacked the tiger roar, this cry is a signal to attract the lion's surroundings. While the tiger is not absolute intervention Sinners deserve another tiger.

    Åü Law 2 = horny female lion makes a fight "fight between a lion and a tiger

    However, the female lion have deliberately crossed the border and would provoke a tiger. On May 27 the estrous female lion 'Rose' is moved to the tiger lazily walking area between the male lions nap. 'Rose' is 'id', 'Leo', 'travel', 'Annika' and looked at the male tiger sequence No. 2 'horong' chunky face the front of the foot touches tuk. 'Horong' cause this moment chwihaja corresponding body posture 'id' is Denis ran towards them 'horong' horong 'hit is less recoil. Day 'Rose' was a brave choice 'ID'.

    Åü Law 3 = good at guerrilla warfare Tigers

    "Tiger can not win a fight a lion moving in groups in front. The tiger commando attack falls and the lion is lurking quietly " 'Aurora' and hit 'Juno' is aghast within flee, 'horong' drove the attack to 'hake' lion 'Leo' is 2 and SEQ ID No. 1 to 10 days tiger 'segang' twice suffered a surprise attack. . Always 'Leo' is like the willow branches to lay down to rest on a slanted hill, tiger 'segang' attacked suddenly 'Leo' is hiding behind the willows. 'Leo' does not help that another lion exists yeoseo like 'bullying' in the lion bunch tablet keepers "If fighting a lion and a tiger is equivalent to cruelty to animals," he said. "Take a small breeder that patrol car and horse fights The rigon, "he said.

    So jeong sangjo says that the tiger has fast but weak strikes that miss more:

    And says that the lion has strong one hit blows:

    Some videos from everland




    On the Rwn korean news report, Jeong jangjo stated:

    "If the lion attacks accumulate valiant tiger's even prepared to retreat "

    Everland korea: Scene

    1. Lioness dominates two white tigers
    2. Male lion dominated two tigers
    3. 10 tigers relseased, biggest male trys to pick on lioness only to get slapped around
    4. Lioness tells male what happened, male lion goes and dominated 3 tigers

    More on everland:

    5 lions mauling a tiger

    And are often injured in fights with lions even 1 on 1


    Interview two:1.)Yongin Everland afternoon last August 28 Tiger - Upon entering the lion only飼育舍(keepers), the reporter was surprised to suddenly surprise to咆哮(roar) of the lion bursts.The roar of the lion can without coming through the "animal kingdom" is in front of the television, but the real popularity of professional training were just beginning its time.

    The roar of a lion spewing out via heartfelt resonance in the vocal fold, from 300 square keepers space and played a tremendous sound effects. Indeed, "this sounds axis" is the expression was realized. The roar was the hero of the獅龍(saryong). The eleven-year-old was born in 1990 in Yongin Everland saryong lion - the oldest male lion eating tiger safari.Everland tiger-lion safari is the only stand虎world-famous for its獅living. Starting with a lion safari zoo opened in 1976 and 1987 after the tiger safari will be added to the next dwaetgo that opens the "Wild Safari" in March 1992 put together a lion and a tiger.

    2.)Yiyongpil zookeeper watched a power struggle since the opening of the safari內is "Meanwhile, the frequent change of government, but after the April 2000" POSCO "are accounted for supremacy Safari內has become relatively calm," he said. He explained the reason for this is thatPOSCO is currently recognized as a champion integration.

    "" POSCO "Ahi is also fighting tooth for now. However, given the snacks look more hierarchies that it is easy to see how if caught. If there are spun the jeep safari內to give the chicken as a snack for the animals at this time, "POSCO" throw this in the "hosik" POSCO stands approaching its halfway point only. "Hosik" Ido course a situation that looks interested deombiji not dare to eat. 3.)Tiger crowd versa. "Hogeol" in Article 1 Tiger champion (11 years old) since the wind up line (11 years old) - hodol (10 years old) - hogeol - Lake District (10 years old) - hogeol - jipgwoncheung are often turned back to hosik. The climate of the selling power of being something safaris內glance.
    https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&u=http://monthly.chosun.com/client/news/viw.asp%3FnNewsNumb%3D2001101000 13&prev=search

    So a tiger was killed an eaten by a lion there once.

    Third interview:

    two representing the lion and tiger, feline 'Big Star' is a one-to-one who yigilkka glued to? The winner of this fight will be the same "king of beasts[출처] 본 기사는 조선닷컴에서 작성된 기사 입니다http://news.chosun.com/site/data/htm...122601098.html

    4th interview:
    thirteen went the crowd was mostly dead hordes tiger [출처] 본 기사는 조선닷컴에서 작성된 기사 입니다http://news.chosun.com/site/data/htm...062900832.html

    So many hordes of tigers were killed by lions there:


    So the facts at everland korea:

    - For ten years lions an tigers were seen fighting and lions always dominated their tigers
    - In the early years a lion killed an ate a tiger their, so cars were brought in to stop fights
    - Lions strike harder than the tigers
    - Tigers cannot win when lions unify
    - Even one on one the lion is King of beast
    - The lions hong man, posco, Id, tunder bolt, dominated, Hogoel, backhoe, caesar, and many more
    - Many tigers were killed there by lions an no lions killed by tigers.

    Sounds quite the same to what Clyde beatty said, that in his 40 years working 2,000 lions an tigers, 50 of the tigers were killed, and he only lost 1 lion to a tiger:...
    • Thread Starter

    Did you happen to notice the pictures to the right down one, is of a lion biteing the neck of a tiger?


    Even more so this film should be found an analyzed now.

    Film in 1934 of a lion or lioness biting the neck of a prostrated tiger:


    When it comes to a heated argument between a lion and a tiger the former gets all the applause, and according to the voice of a referee from the screen it subdues the tiger.

    BANGLADESHZoo to release tigers and lionsNews comes in that Bangladesh plans to release zoolions and tigers into the Sundarbans. “The animals havebeen identified as ‘excess’, the chief administrativeofficer of Mirpur Zoo, Dhaka, Mafizur Rahman toldthe Associated Press news agency. The logic behindthis absurd idea is that the “Sundarbans is home to about300 royal Bengal tigers but has no lion population.”Conservationists have opposed this, and arecampaigning to phase out zoos in Bangladesh, usingthe sensible policy of ‘no recruitment’ or preventingany new births coupled with a ban on any newacquisitions. Actually, this sounds like a good idea forour country, and others in the region.Source: AFP, Sanctuary Asia.

    Probably was canceled a while ago, but interesting to note lions did survive farther east and in the places like West bankura an orissa there were lion bones there excavated. But the tigers in bangladesh only weigh some 90 kg, so most likely all tigers in contact with lions would be eradicated. Plus the lions most likely wouldnt make the survival because it needs a heavy amount of fauna to support a pride.

    The lion is classified in 8 sub species- mainly on the basis of geography, mane appearance, and size.Asia’s only surviving subspecies, which is commonly known as the Indian lion once thrived allthrough the Middle East to Asia, as far as Bangladesh.

    The Indian lion, which for its bravery,invincibility and regal gait, inspired the priest, the poet and thepainter alike, was wiped out of existence by the so-called Britishsportsman of the East Indian Company. Up to the beginning of the 19thcentury, the lion stalked the Indus Plain and the Central IndiaHighlands covering an area of about ¼ million square miles. By about1850, the lion was well on the way out, despite repeated protestsone reads in the sporting journals of the time.* The lion is confinedtoday to a small tract (550 square miles) viz. the Gir forest inSaurashtra. Like most protected monuments of the country, the lionowes its existence to the foresight of Lord Curzon the elebratedViceroy of India at the turn of the 20th century. During the postindependenceera a second home for the lion has been found in theBenares Division of Uttar Pradesh.

    The lion, the elephant and the bull are depicted in the temples ofIndia. To signify their fearlessness and indomitable courage, theproud and the powerful sought in the past to shine in the reflectedglory of the lion, Thus the founder of the Moghul empire in India,Zahir Uddin Mohammad assumed the title of Babar (the lion). ThePathan King who drove Babar's heir to the throne (Humayun) fromDelhi, called himself Sher-Shah (the Lion King). It was the lionwhich lent fanciful courage to the warriors of India who styledthemselves as Singhs (lions).

    Calcutta, March 30, 1814. By a letter from a correspondent at Kurnaul, we are informed of the particulars of a lion hunt in the vicinity of that station, during which Colonel Tuoitrson and a party of oflicers killed a lion of enormous size, and supposed to be the largest ever seen in India. His dimensions were the following: length from the end of the nose to the tip of the tail, ten feet two inches; height from the ground to the top of the shoulder, four feet six inches; cir


    The habits of the Asiatic Lions do not difi‘er much from those of Africa, excepting that the former, from the state of the country, frequent the jungles. In India the elephant is generally employed in the chace, which is even new conducted with more pomp and circumstance than in Africa. The grand Asiatic huntings of former times, those of Genghis Khan for instance, will occur to many of our readers. The accounts of most Asiatic modern sportsmen give a most courageous bearing to the Lions in these encounters. One of these states that the Lions in India, instead of running away when pursued through a jungle, seldom lake to cover as a refuge at all. On the approach of their enemies, they spring out to meet them openmouthed in the plain. They are thus easily shot; but if the are missed or only slightly wounded, they are most formi able adversaries. They are even said to have s irung on the heads of the largest elephants, and to have fairly pulled them to the ground, riders and all.


    Lions in India. — It has been generally supposed that lions are not known in India; but it appears that, in the beginning of March, 1810, five horsemen, stationed at a village near Mansi, having lieard that a pig had been carried away by a tyger, went to the spot on foot, when they lound, a lion and lioness feeding upon it. The latter, on the patch of grass being set on fire, went oil"; but the former advanced slowly, with his main and tail erect; when the men fired with so good an effect, as induced them to go up and destroy him with their swords; which was accomplished after one man had been severely wounded. The animal appeared to be a full »rown lion, in most respects like the African one. A lioness, a few days previous, had been sent in from FIissr.ii. having been killed by a party of horsemen. These facts prove that lions arc to be found in India as welL. as Africa.
    • Thread Starter

    Leo persica was across all of india, not just gujarat:


    There is also much exaggeration concerning size and weight. A tiger that measures ten feet from the tip of its nose to the end of its tail is a big one, and above the average, which is about nine and a half feet. Of course there are exceptions, as in all animal kind, but the majority of eleven and twelve foot tiger stories are fiction. I was unable during six months' hunting to find definite account of one even eleven feet in length. I did hear of several ranging from ten feet to ten feet six inches, and one of ten feet eight inches. So also with the weight, which is commonly written down at from 4oo to 5oo pounds, whereas the average will run from 3oo to 375 pounds, the latter being a good one and the former figure more near the average.
    http://books.google.com/books?dq=th...d=VCAuAAAAYAAJ&ie= ISO-8859-1&output=html_text

    Again, like he said, the tigers weights have always been overexaggerated

    TIGER 857 lbs, source hunter:

    Consensus from biologist George schaller:

    Dispite schaler commented on it, the photo still shows a tiger only around 400-500 pounds in terms of size. Again these numbers of text can be made up an not fact checked by hunters, if a hunting record is cited, I see no reason why another hunter s citation isnt useable as well:

    LION 900 lbs, Animal trapper:

    ATTACKED BY A LION A Thrilling Experience Which Colonel Boone Had in Africa Colonel Daniel Boone the well known performer with trained lions wan a member of the French soldiery in Africa during the 70s His regiment was stationed just outside of one of the worst jungles known in that part of the country and had G number of very thrilling adventures In 1876 said he while our regiment of CnasseursdAfrique was quartering in southern Africa a lion hunt was organized by some of the officers Accompanied by the native beaters and necessary accouterment we started into the jungle Several lions had been killed and we were on the point of returning when a lion was started as I thought back of mo I turned and waited for him to come out of the jungle when I heard a cracking of twigs in the rear and I turned just in time to see a tremendous i fellow about crouching for a spring I i threw my gun up and gave it to him right I between the eyes A lions skull instead of being round is angular with the forehead more or less pointed A ball striking full in the face will glance either one side or another Thats just what mine did It ran along under the skin and cut the skin at the neck I knew that my last chance was gone and dropping my gnu I tel into a position kneeling on one knee with my left arm thrown up to shield my face When he came at me all I could see was a brown streak and then he struck He caught my arm just above the elbow and braced as I was he turned a complete somersault over my head He held on chewing and growling while I tried to reach my hunting knife Suddenly with a lightning Jke motion the lion let go my arm and throwing me on I my back opened his huge jars and gripped me on the left side 1 felt the ribs give way Then I gave myself up a A goner7 I The other members of the party had come up in the meantime but the lion and I were so closely mixed up that a shot was impossible Finally when I had lost consciousness ono of the party sneaked up and placed the muzzle of his gun at the lions ear and let her go killing him instantly I was three months recovering and then three of my ribs were crushed and this arm was a reminder The lion weighed 900 pounds and measured over seven feet

    As stated before, only record we have of them being weighed on video has the lion as the heavier (proven), as a species, (all -subspecies combined) the lion is much heavier (proven), comparing the smallest versions of regions both lion/tiger get, the tiger is much smaller, almost 1/3rd that of the lion, (proven), on text, wheather hunter, trapper, biologist, or any type of source...the lion is heavier than the tiger in the wild...(proven).

    Tigers arnt even the tallest of living species of big cats, that would be yet again, the lion:

    So again, these little text of numbers which are hear say that the tiger is bigger reflects nothing when both are seen together:

    6 year old Bengal tiger named detonator and nala lioness:

    lion 3 x bigger upper body

    Clyde beatty circus, lion just as tall as tiger on a foot loer pedastal:

    complete different circus, lion still taller by a foot:

    edlstien circus, still taller:

    lions upper body 3x bigger:

    lions 3x the size of tiger

    lion still taller

    still taller

    terrel jacobs lion as tall as a tiger a foot higher than him

    Clyde beatty worked with 2,000 lions and tigers (that means 1,000 tigers are accounted for smaller than lions)


    1,000 pound lion named samson:
    https://www.google.com/search?biw=1297&bih=610&tbm=bks& q="Attractions+of+this+unusual+s teak+house+include+Samson,+1,000-pound+African"&oq="Attractions+o f+this+unusual+steak+house+inclu de+Samson,+1,000-pound+African"&gs_l=serp.3...239 556.248796.0.248979. 142.263.0j2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.s erp..2.0.0.yNVEC8JAkoM

    Lions are the biggest, heaviest and tallest big cats:

    The hind limb proportions of both lion and tiger are similar, (about the same length
    https://books.google.com/books?id=XFIbjBEQolMC&pg=PA56&dq =%22lion%22++tiger+%22shorter%22 &hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAWoVChM I4autkMGOxgIVhUKSCh09iwDv#v=onep age&q=%22lion%22%20%20tiger%20%2 2shorter%22&f=false

    (asiatic lion)
    The lion is higher at the shoulder but shorter in the body than the tiger
    https://books.google.com/books?id=ZP7fAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA199&d q=%22lion%22+%22tiger%22+%22shor ter%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCwQ6AEwB GoVChMIvZ28jMSOxgIVSouSCh3QywAn# v=onepage&q=%22lion%22%20%22tige r%22%20%22shorter%22&f=false

    The Asiatic lion in India is shorter in length than the Indian tiger, but slightly taller in shoulder height
    https://books.google.com/books?id=J0rME6RjC1sC&pg=PA110&d q=%22lion%22+%22tiger%22+%22shor ter%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEMQ6AEwC GoVChMIvZ28jMSOxgIVSouSCh3QywAn# v=onepage&q=%22lion%22%20%22tige r%22%20%22shorter%22&f=false

    His legs and claws resemble those of the lion, only the legs are much shorter in proportion to the size of the animal
    https://books.google.com/books?id=HKYuxHhPh3oC&pg=PA130&d q=%22lion%22+%22tiger%22+%22shor ter%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEgQ6AEwC WoVChMIvZ28jMSOxgIVSouSCh3QywAn# v=onepage&q=%22lion%22%20%22tige r%22%20%22shorter%22&f=false

    the legs are rather shorter, ad the animal bends them more and has more of the snake like flexure of the spine when he walks
    https://books.google.com/books?id=CLgTAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA728&d q=%22lion%22+%22tiger%22+%22shor ter%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCQQ6AEwA zgUahUKEwj4tMG3xY7GAhUGB5IKHTO7A PU#v=onepage&q=%22lion%22%20%22t iger%22%20%22shorter%22&f=false

    than even the lion himself ; it is much slenderer also in proportion to its size ; its legs shorter, and its neck and body longer.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=kogMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA423&d q=%22lion%22+%22tiger%22+%22shor ter%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDIQ6AEwB jgUahUKEwj4tMG3xY7GAhUGB5IKHTO7A PU#v=onepage&q=%22lion%22%20%22t iger%22%20%22shorter%22&f=false

    His body is longer and more slender than that of the lion, and his legs shorter,
    https://books.google.com/books?id=8BJFAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA50&dq =%22lion%22+%22tiger%22+%22short er%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CC8Q6AEwBD goahUKEwi2r6WBx47GAhWFOpIKHbK5AJ k#v=onepage&q=%22lion%22%20%22ti ger%22%20%22shorter%22&f=false

    The second is the tiger, rather longer than the lion, but not so tall
    https://books.google.com/books?id=NyoqAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA43&dq =%22lion%22+%22tiger%22+%22short er%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBj goahUKEwi2r6WBx47GAhWFOpIKHbK5AJ k#v=onepage&q=%22lion%22%20%22ti ger%22%20%22shorter%22&f=false

    The tiger stands lower on the limbs than the lion, and is thus proportionately longer in the body
    https://books.google.com/books?id=klIjAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA374&d q=%22lion%22+%22longer%22+%22tig er%22+limbs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBwQ 6AEwAWoVChMIi6-DvseOxgIVh36SCh0jqACs#v=onepage& q=%22lion%22%20%22longer%22%20%2 2tiger%22%20limbs&f=false

    Bigger is better A lion and tiger are almost equal in size.Tigers have longer
    bodies than lions, but they are not as tall
    https://books.google.com/books?id=v92FTWrCTvwC&pg=PT6&dq= %22lion%22+%22longer%22+%22tiger %22+legs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBQQ6AE wAGoVChMItKnj-MiOxgIViX6SCh2X0QB4#v=onepage&q= %22lion%22%20%22longer%22%20%22t iger%22%20legs&f=false

    but the lion stands higher at the shoulder than the tiger.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=c7gRAQAAMAAJ&q=%22lion% 22+%22tiger%22+%22stands+higher% 22&dq=%22lion%22+%22tiger%22+%22 stands+higher%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved= 0CBQQ6AEwAGoVChMI3KjGrsuOxgIVAX6 SCh1-QQDw

    Aside from lions having relatively longer legs, it is virtually impossible to tell these two cats apart without their skins
    https://books.google.com/books?id=dbQ8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA1&dq= %22lion%22+%22tiger%22+%22longer +legs%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBcQ6AE wAWoVChMIofzI_8yOxgIVi12SCh0oaQF W#v=onepage&q=%22lion%22%20%22ti ger%22%20%22longer%20legs%22&f=f alse

    Although the lion is not our number 1 big cat, it is the tallest

    Lions are largest of the African big cat species. The lion is the tallest of the felines

    The lion is part of the 4 big cats known as the genus Panthera, which includes ... It is the tallest of all known cats reaching a height of 5 feet 5 inches

    Bengal tigers (panthera Tigris Tigris) are smaller than the Siberian tigers. A male
    stands between 2 and 3 feet tall at the shoulder.


    How can the tiger out-compete the lion, the tiger doesnt even hunt big game on average compared to the lion:

    Chitwan Dr. Sunqusit

    page 98
    ..90% of tiger kills were found in riverine forest/grasslands..Most of the prey killed by tigers weigh 50-100 kg,
    ...In the absence of competitors a tiger can utilize each carcass, and thus there is no necessity to share

    . Karanth & Sunquist (1995) found that tiger usually selected prey weighing more than 176 kilograms
    ..Anamalai Tiger Reserve, southern India, the average size of prey caught by tiger was 92 kilograms
    ..At Nagarahole chital, sambar and wild pig...Karanth & Sunquist (1995)

    Prey abundance and food habit of tigers (Panthera tigris tigris) in Pench National Park, Madhya Pradesh (2001)

    ..Chital (47.3%) along with sambar (14.5%) and wild pig Sus scrofa (10.9%)..The average weight of animals consumed by tigers in the intensive study area was 82.1 kg.


    227 kg considered one of the heaviest and the average 200 kg is based on very small sample.
    Journal of Zoology

    Volume 286, Issue 3, pages 221–231, March 2012


    Tigers Panthera tigris continue to decline despite the best efforts of the worldwide scientific and conservation communities. Prey depletion has been linked to this decline, but a clear definition of what constitutes preferred prey and preferred prey weight range does not exist. This is critical information if we are to assess tiger reintroduction potential, monitor unforeseen poaching of predators and prey, and successfully conserve the species. Here we reviewed the available literature on tiger diet and prey availability and calculated Jacobs's electivity index scores from 3187 kills or scats of 32 prey species. We found that wild boar and sambar deer are significantly preferred by tigers, with red deer and barasingha likely to be significantly preferred also with a larger sample size. Prey body mass was the only variable that related to tiger prey preference with species weighing between 60 and 250 kg preferred by tigers yielding a ratio of predator to preferred prey of 1:1, which is similar to other solitary felids. This information can be used to predict tiger diet, carrying capacity and movement patterns, as it has been for Africa's large predator guild, and has important implications for tiger conservation throughout its distribution.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...maintenance.++Apologies+for+t he+inconvenience.

    1 x 1 ratio when available which is similar to other solitary felids. Lions are 2 x 3 times their own body weight, Lionesess up to 300 kg.

    Dr. Packer

    ..The savannas are the most heterogeneous of felid habitats; lions also live at higher densities than other big cats and thus face the most intense competition for good habitat.


    ..Lionesses generally prey on ungulates, comfortably taking down those sized between 50-300 kg.
    ..But male lions are also very good hunters,..They also take more risks in hunting and occasionally prey on much larger
    animals. They can fiercely take down bull buffaloes, giraffes and even hippo.


    Lioness hunt large prey than male tigers on average. Male lions target much larger prey than male tigers.

    ..However, the individual body mass and the edible biomass of ungulate prey are both variable and complex factors for lions (Schaller, 1972 ; van Orsdol, 1984 ), as with tigers (Karantet al., 2004 ). The body masses of individual prey taken by lions are 3 – 1, 600 kg and, eve n re- stricted to preferred prey, the range is 190 – 550 kg (Hayward & Kerley, 2005 )
    ..Karanth et al. ( 2004 ) assumed b 5 1 . 0 for tigers (i.e. all prey are potentially eaten) but their field data later placed b closer to 0. 514 ( 0 .001 – 1 . 009 ).
    ..Hunter (1998) recorded virtually all medium-to large bodied prey consumed by lions over 40 months
    ..The different scaling factors of tigers and lions could reflect differences between solitary and group hunting. we hesitate to recommend further research, given the utility of the empirical model (Eq. 3 ).

    http://journals.cambridge.org/actio...e=online&aid=3505612&fil eId=S003060530700124X

    32–632 kg for lion Panthera leo


    ..Lions elsewhere can – opportunistically – kill Cape buffalo Syncerus caffer* (weighing c. 1000 kg) and sometimes hippo Hippopotamus amphibius (c. 1500-3500 kg).
    ..Though note that some lion populations are specialist buffalo-killers. In Tanzania’s Lake Manyara National Park, George Schaller (1972) reported that an amazing 62% of all lion prey was made up of Cape buffalo, with 81% of this 62% being adult male buffalo

    Dr. Schaller

    page 209

    ..adult hippopotami are occasionally killed in Gorgogonza Park (R.Park)..solitary lions tend to prey on herbivores weighing between 50-300 kg..Adult buffalo, some 425 to 850 kg in weight, may be attacked by solitary lions...

    https://books.google.com/books?hl=e...51wllbGBv1WxsNYwpH1 HqNAqI#v=onepage&q&f=false

    ..Data were collected on species killed by lions Panthera leo in Hwange National Park, Zimbabwe between 1998 and 2004. Lions killed predominantly large to medium-sized herbivores, concentrating on buffalo Syncerus caffer, elephant Loxodonta africana, giraffe Giraffa camelopardalis, wildebeest Connochaetes taurinus and zebra Equus burchelli. These species made up 83% of all lion kills found and 94% of the biomass of kills actually observed. Elephant calves made up an unusually large proportion of lion prey during the study period (23% of kills recorded). All elephants killed were dependent juveniles

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...nticated=false&deniedAccessCu stomisedMessage=


    Elk, wild boar and sika deer, and roe deer make up about 80-90% of tiger prey across tiger range,


    Amur tigers predate on larger prey (elk) than Bengal tigers on average. 4 or 5 large Bengal tigers does not represent the whole.

    Dr. Packer

    ..lion predation remains a significant mortality factor for subadults and even for adults (e.g. Hirst, 1969; Pienaar, 1969), which weigh 800–1200 kg (Owen-Smith, 1988) and reach heights of up to 4.5–5.5 m for females and males, respectively (Dagg & Foster, 1982; Pellew, 1983 a )
    ..Lions are a clear threat to giraffes. Observational studies indicate that giraffes alter their behavior in the presence of lions
    ..Although solitary lions can attack adult giraffes (Pienaar, 1969), groups of lions are more successful at bringing down large prey (Schaller, 1972)
    ..The giraffe is an important food source for lions in some regions, including Kruger National Park, South Africa (Pienaar, 1969; Owen-Smith & Mills, 2008) and Hwange National Park, Zimbabwe (Loveridge et al ., 2006). Where giraffes are a large component of the lion’s diet, we might expect even higher claw-mark prevalence than observed in Serengeti..

    .. male lions are in fact considerably more effective and successful predators when it comes to targeting the largest prey—namely elephants and buffalo..
    .. it has been demonstrated that male lions have the capability of overpowering a young elephant even when hunting alone [19,23]. Older elephant matriarchs should be more experienced in facing lion encounters than younger matriarchs


    Predator–prey size relationships in an African large-mammal food web

    ....Studies elsewhere show buffalo to be numerically the predominant prey of lion in Chobe National Park in Botswana (Viljoen 1993), Kafue National Park in Zambia (Mitchell et al. 1965) and Lake Manyara National Park in Tanzania (Schaller 1972). Hayward & Kerley (2005) found that lion selected prey species preferentially within a mass range of 190–550 kg, but made no adjustment for the under-recording of smaller prey species. Over half of the giraffe and two-thirds of the buffalo killed by lion were adult animals in the Mala Mala Reserve adjoining Kruger (Radloff & du Toit 2004). A substantial fraction of the adult buffalo falling prey to lions are killed by male lions hunting independently of female prides (Funston et al. 1998, 2001; Radloff & du Toit 2004). In northern Botswana, lions hunting in groups of around 10 killed young elephants weighing up to 2500 kg in body mass, more than 10 times the mass of a male lion (Joubert 2006).


    Effects of Predator-prey Body Size Ratios on the Stability of Food Chains.

    . the relationship between the predator-prey body mass ratio and the trophic position of the predator, that is, how fast this ratio decreases with increasing trophic height.


    ..This is a large difference in comparison with East and South Africa, where lions fed on 65% large prey and 35% medium sized prey (Bauer, 2008). Bauer (2008) stated that the difference between lions from different parts of Africa may not be caused by differences in prey preferences, but by differences in availability.


    How can a smaller animal, in height, average weight, and size appearance, suddenly out-compete a bigger, stronger, faster cooperative, gregarious animal such as the lion? That makes no sense, lions hunt larger prey on average because smaller prey cannot feed the entire pride, so every kill will most likely has to be in the 400-2000 kg weight range, while tigers a small 200 kg range.
    • Thread Starter

    There are more than 50 accepted cases of wild dogs killing tigers, yet a pride of lions would be out competed? Where is the logic in that? Where is the brains, where is the common sense? We can put a guy on the moon, yet we cant figure out that a pride of lions is vastly more powerful than a pack of 40 lb wild dogs? lol

    Whats more powerful, coalition of six 400-500 pound male lions:

    Or a band of 40 lb wild dogs:

    Whats more powerful, lions in groups:

    Or puny little wild dogs:

    A group of 7 male lions:

    Is less powerful than 7 tiny wild dogs?

    Even juvenile lions form groups upto 8 males:

    You think that the wild dogs can kill all 8 lions at the same time?

    These dholes couldnt even compete with the lionesses, let alone the males:

    The size of a big lion:

    Compared to a wild dog

    Who is the one not being realistic? You want me to believe 40 lb wild dogs could take on 20+ lions? lol

    Lets look back at what the wild dogs do to a tiger:


    Now lets look at what lions do to hyena, a gregarious animal just like the wild dog, yet bigger, stronger and more powerful:




    Hence how can a single tiger compete with a pride of lions? Broken logic. Could a single tiger take the kills from lions?


    ; Huerta, a 2-year-old Nubian lion, was killed yesterday in a terrific battle with Rajah, a big Bengal tiger, In Bronx Park Zoo. Keepers and attendants made fruitless attempts to stop the bloody duel. It was an unequal combat, Rajah being; nearly twice the size of his opponent, but Huerta fought gamely until he was cornered and killed by the snap of Rajah's Jaws across the back of his neck. In some unexplained manner the door between the cages of the two denizens of the Jungle became unbarred during the night, and Huerta got Into Rajah's cage 'about 7 o'clock this morning and immediately the battle began. Huerta had the better of the fight during the first few minutes. He seemed as anxious for the fray as the big tiger, and was poised for a leap at Rajah's throat when the tiger got the death grip. With the body of the lion lying inert on the floor, Rajah sniffed at it a few times to satisfy himself that he had completed his work, and then backed into a corner, where he began administering to his own wounds. He had not come out of the fight unscathed. One ear was chewed off, his neck and back had been lacerated, and he may lose an eye.

    http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost_historical/access/243244162.html?dids=243244162:24 3244162&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&date =May+9%2C+1914&author=From+the+N ew+York+Herald.&pub=The+Washingt on+Post++(1877-1954)&edition=&startpage=6&desc= TIGER+KILLS+LION+IN+FIGHT j
    And the fight went on for an hour long.


    A single lone 2 year old lioness tore the ear off, beat up and lacerated the neck of a full grown bengal tiger, and yet a pride of lionesses would do nothing to a tiger? What is this...bias?

    It was because of the hunters not the tigers:

    And by the rulers:


    A lion can be spotted miles out in the open, by then even a single hunter can kill a city of lions, for a tiger hunt...they would need hundreds of men and many elephants to beat down the bush and tall grassy jungles to locate a single tiger:

    But I guess moving some lions to Medya predesh could be beneficial to lion cubs, as most all of the young are killed b murading males:

    So I guess moving them away from rival prides, would allow alot more cubs to be able to stand a better chance.

    Lions are aggressive to any other predator in their mits, , what makes you think the tigers in kuno would be any kind of exception?

    Some say lions never reached the deep south of inida, but have these same people even gone there to confirm this? There was an incident in Bangalore where lion bit a tiger and wounded him in the neck near the cauvery river via Bangalore, and yet when we look at Bangalores historical arts there are many lions mentioned...

    Rameshwara Temple at KeladiThe Keladi Nayakas (period: 1499 – 1763) built some fine temples in Ikkeri and Keladi using a combination of late Kadamba, Hoysala, Vijayanagara and Dravida styles. The use of granite for their construction shows that they simply followed the Vijayanagar model of architecture. The Aghoreshwara Temple at Ikkeri and the Rameshwara Temple at Keladi are the best examples of the Nayakas' art. Vijayanagar-style pillars with hippogryphs are common; called yali columns (depiction of horses and lions as seen in Hampi) is found here. These are pillars with lions, either with their forepaws raised or simply in a sitting position, and pillars with a mythical horse-like animal with front legs raised, balancing on its rear legs, and with an armed rider on its back. A roof sculpture depicting a Gandaberunda (see image in infobox), the mythical two-headed bird of Karnataka, symbol of the state, is found in Keladi.

    Why would they build monuments of lions they have never seen? Check out one of the zoos in Bangalore, the occasional zoo around india has only 1 or 2 lions, yet this zoo in Bangalore has 30 lions and just as much tigers:

    Hmmm, whos to say these animals aren't descended from lions caught by near by jungles? Looks like its just easier to say, lions were never there, than to actually go there and see lions were as much as part of their districts culture than any other part the lion ranged in india..

    Again, of course you arent going to find anything in the 19th or maybe even 18th century, by then lions would have been gone by hunters, poachers, and rulers who killed them off...there is only two things lions really need, a large food source and water, hence they had the cauvery river (water), and they had the indian bison the guar (food source), lions follow these big herbivores, and it just so happened that the guar historically ranged in those areas:


    Nature always balances out a prey with a predator, hence what would balance out the guar? Tigers, leopards??? Tigers kill less than 20 adult guar a year, that would do nothing in terms set in a balance, lions in the okavango kill thousands of buaffalo a year, this helps with the process of natural selection, buffalo become more tuffer due to tough competition, which leads to more fit bulls, more bulls means more mating with the she-buffalo. And on an on the state of evolution goes. The arguments made even by some of the self proclaimed scientist are easy to do, they just have to deny it, denying something and proving something wrong is two different things.

    It seems many people have dismissed Valmiks opinion as just an opinion an no fact based:http://vanishingnature.blogspot.com....ut-of-all.htmlIts like he said, thapar stated there were no lions in Europe, wrong... lions were already in greece, and used for the roman games. The lion heart was all over Europe, thapar said this was based on mythos, and not real live lions...wrong again, it its well documented that real lions were given by the roman-greeco times to britain:12th centuryENGLANDKing Henry the 3rd:
    The Tower of London contained a zoo which housed a menagerie of wild animals, many of which were gifts presented to Henry lll by foreign monarchs Founded by King John in the early thirteeth century, the royal zoo existed for over 600 years. In 1235 the holy Roman emperor, frederick 2, reutedly presented the King with the castles first lions to honor his mirrage to Henrys sister, Isabella, and quite possibly to symbolically agknowledge the power of the King himself. In 1277 Edward the 1st, built the so-called lion tower, a semi circular structure which housed the great cats. Interestingly, in 2005 archaeologists discovered the skulls of three medieval cats, two lions and a leopard, in the moat; the oldest skull has been dated to between 1280 and 1385. In early 2008, scientist from the natrual history museum in london used DNA analysis to determine that two of the skulls were male barbary lions, which came from North africa. Edward's lion tower probably stood along side the moat at this point.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=p_...a=X&ei=o5ZtUqX6D8n 9iwK7ooHACA&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAQhttp://books.google.com/books?id=ma...a=X&ei=37chUfmFBsS 6iwLelYHQBA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAANow to implement, the tiger on the rock makes alot of sense, for we have records of modern accounts of this portraying the same thing.[/b](15th century)Edmund Spense
    Are met at spoiling of some hungry prey,Both challenge it with equal greediness:But first the Tiger claws there on did lay;And therefore loth to loose her right away,Doth in defence there of full stoutly stond:To which the Lion strongly doth gainsay,That she to hunt the beast first took in hond;And therefore ought it have, wherever she it fond.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=dj...a=X&ei=w9whUZ3cOom EiwLE2IHwDg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ

    (16th century)

    Allen ramseyThe savage tiger feels the potent flame: The grim majestic lion growls his love To the resounding forest.—Wilder thou Than nature's wildest race, spurn'st at that power To which all nature bows.—But why of these, Of the grim lion, or the spotted lynx, Or wily serpent ?—these have sense and feeling. Even trees inanimate confess the god: See how the vine clings with a fond embrace; The mountain fir, the pine, the elm, the beech, Have each their favour'd mate: they burn, they sigh, &c
    http://books.google.com/books?id=A1...a=X&ei=jcshUZiDJrD XiAK18YDQAg&ved=0CF4Q6AEwCQ

    (17th century)
    Gotthold ephraim:

    ~The Monthly Christian Spectator. 1851-1859Lion kills a tiger by bite-ing him in the throat…
    http://books.google.com/books?id=Cy...a=X&ei=tqQqUZPZDKe diQKKg4DoBg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA

    17th -18th centuryAlexander Wilson:


    The shaggy lion rushes to the place,With roar tremendous seizes on his prey.Exasp'rate see 1 the tiger springs away.Stops short and maddens at the monarch's growl;And through his eyes darts all his furious soul.Half willed, yet half afraid to dare a bound.He eyes his loss, and roars, and tears the ground.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=V5...&sa=X&ei=BMIhUbytN InIiwKkzIAw&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA

    Johann Christoph Friedrich von Schiller:Occupation: German poet, philosopher, historian,
    and playwright
    The holy Roman empire and Schiller
    http://books.google.com/books?id=qD...a=X&ei=Mhl-UqHMBKLhiALtioCoDQ&ved=0CBUQ6AEw Ag

    (18th century)Robert Southey:


    Guardant before his feet a Lion lay,The Saxon Lion, terrible of yore.Who in his wither'd limbs and lean decay,The marks of long and cruel bondage bore jBut broken now beside him lay the chain,Which gall'd and fretted late his neck and mane.A T.ion too was couch'd before the Bride;That noble Beast had never felt the chain; Strong were his sinewy limbs and smooth his hide,And o'er his shoulders broad the affluent mane Disbevell'd hung; beneath his feet were laidTorn flags of France whereon his bed he made.Full different were those Lions twain in plight.Yet were they of one brood; and side by sideOf old, the Gallic Tiger in his mightThey many a time had met, and quell'd his pride,And made the treacherous spoiler from their IreCowering and crippled to his den retire.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=cT...a=X&ei=wL0hUeeHJsm 2igKCk4CIAQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

    7 year captive Lion fights 2 tigers in the tower of london
    A asiatic (Indian) lion cub and his sister were a present to George IV from General Watson.

    An accidental but tremendous conflict took place in December, 1830, between a tiger and tigress, and a lion, in the menagerie of the Tower of London. While one of the under keepers was in the act of cleaning the dens in the menagerie, he unguardedly raised a door in the upper tier of cages, by which the lion and tigers were separated. No sooner did the animals see each other, than their eyes glared furiously. The lion erected his mane, and, uttering a tremendous roar, bounded on the male tiger, who seemed as eager for the conflict as his adversary; and he was seconded in the attack by the female. The conflict now became tremendous, and the roaring of the combatants resounded through every part of the Tower, and was even heard in Tower Hill, and the adjoining streets. The other animals of the menagerie became variously excited by the horrid sounds. The beasts of prey evinced strong combative feelings, and joined their voices in fearful yellings, making every effort to get out of their confinement; while the more timid creatures shrieked with terror, and vainly endeavoured to conceal themselves in some remote corners of their cells.of him, and by this conjunction of strength, the poor lion was fairly pinned against the bars, and his action greatly diminished. Still, however, this did not damp his courage, for he redoubled his roar of fury, while, at the same time, he uttered yells of distress. The keepers now appeared with rods of iron heated red at the ends, and applied them to the mouths and nostrils of the furious tigers, which forced them to quit their hold of the prostrate king of the forest. But as soon as they were separated, the lion and tiger again united in conflict, and seizing each other, the one by the upper, and the other by the under jaw, they tore one another with a more deadly and terrible fury than before. The red hot bars were again applied to their nostrils, but so keen were they in the contest, that it was with much difficulty they were again separated. The lion was then forced to his den by following him with the hot iron, when the doors were immediately shut upon him. The lion had the worst of it; but this is not to be wondered at, as he had two animals to contend with, which had been little more than twelve months from their native forests. The tiger, however, lost one of his canine teeth in the last bout. This terrible battle lasted upwards of half an hour.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=5A...a=X&ei=zEgTUeXOAaf 8iQKSioHoAg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_CowleySlaughter shall wear out these, new weapons get, And death in triumph on thy darts shall sit. When Judah's lion starts up to his prey. The beasts shall hang their ears, and <jreep away; When he lies down, the woods shall silence keep, And dreadful tigers tremble at his sleep.
    http://books.google.ca/books?id=y...5PaoASux4DYAQ&ved=0 CB8Q6AEwBw

    Of the feline tribe, the lion claims the first place. He is considered as the lord of the brute creation; and his whole appearance, the flowing and shaggy mane, the ample forehead, the kindling eye, and the muscular strength and compactness of the whole frame, so powerfully armed by nature for the purposes of destruction, concur to give an idea of majesty and power, which is further strengthened by the boldness and courage with which, instead of seeking a dastardly retreat in the forest or the jungle, he rushes forth to confront his enemies in the open plain, where he is generally shot by the hunters. But, in the event of his being only wounded, he is extremely formidable, from his vast strength and fierceness, and the immense weight of his body, especially towards the head, and the power of his tremendous claws.1 The lion is not nearly so common in Asia as in Africa, and is only found in the northern provinces of Hindustan.2 The tiger is the more common animal of India, abounding in all the forests and jungles, from the mouth of the Ganges to the Himalaya Mountains. He is not quite equal in strength to the lion, though superior in activity; and his undulating movements have more of ease, grace, and bounding elasticity; whilst his bright-yellow, tawny coloured skin,
    http://books.google.com/books?id=...8f8oAS4koCoAQ&ved=0C BMQ6AEwAA

    The lion, we should submit, when compared with the tiger, is a noble animal; he possesses more confidence, and more real courage; he likewise differs in his permanent attachment to his mate, and protection of his young; while the tiger shows no partiality beyond the period of heat in the female, and is himself frequently the first and greatest enemy to his own offspring.http://books.google.com/books?id=xe...X&ei=cJOgUIiFH-32igKS94HAAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAzgo

    Practically every century of just britain had documented cases of real live lions dominating tigers, why would they idealize the tiger if he constantly loses to lions like in the everland korea situation? Why would they build hundreds and thousands of monuments of a loser in a conflict? They would honor the lions nobility valour and magnanimity...a trait and quality the tiger lacks. They most likely held the lions status as power and strength, because when compared with the tiger, the lion usually beated the tiger in combat."Tigers are similar in size to lions, although tigers have shorter legs"(Weights including all Sub-speices from Biologist)Tigers weigh less than lions on average (Kitchener and Yamaguchi 2010)* Average adult male lion: 175 kg (386 lb)* Average adult male tiger: 160 kg (353 lb)http://library.sandiegozoo.org/facts...iger/tiger.htm
    • Thread Starter


    Book type: Non-Fiction http://www.thereadingwarehouse.com/b...=9781432649470

    The lion, which is also on this side of the aisle, in Rohilcund be found, would usually stronger and bolder than the Tigers , although he was not so big and nimble. He never would consider hiding when he was being followed through the jungle, but would jump against the enemy with open jaws, like a chained dog. He would then usually easy shot; was not a similar shot but, or wounded the lion lightly, then this would be truly terrible. He would jump, although not fast, but with tremendous force and violence, and his big head, huge paws and the force of the front body made ​​him able to put on the head of the largest elephant and tear down a lord and everything on the floor.


    Rohilkhand, low-lying alluvial region in northwestern Uttar Pradesh state, northern India. The Rohilkhand is part of the Upper Ganges (Ganga) Plain and has an area of about 10,000 square miles (25,000 square km). It is bounded by the frontiers of China and Nepal to the north and the Ganges Riverto the south and the west.

    Interesting lion against dhole of india:

    This is where the account of a lion killed a tiger is surat is near:Gulf Cambay:

    The domestic animals are the same as in Kaira. In the days of the early Hindu settlements near the mouth of the Mahi, wild animals were so numerous that a city, on or near the site of Cambay, once bore the title of Baghvati or Tiger town. As late as the end of the last century tigers andlions were found close to Cambay. Sir Charles Malet, when Resident in 1781, killed a lion near the village of Kura on the banks of the Sabarmati, about twenty miles north of Cambay. The country people called it the camel tiger, untia vagh, and thought it the fiercest and strongest of that race. Camel-coloured verging to yellow, he was without spots or stripes, not high but powerfully massive, with a head and foreparts of admirable size and strength. About the same time, in the Sabarmati villages, so great was the dread of beasts of prey that, at the close of each day, the inhabitants gathered their cattle within the village walls.1 Of large beasts of prey no trace remains. The only game is nilgai, Portax pictus, wild hog, and large herds of antelope, Antelope bezoartica, that feed on the short herbage of salt marsh lands. During the cold weather every pond is alive with duck, teal, and snipe.https://books.google.com/books?id=Xh...rat%22&f=false

    Hence this strengthens the credibility of the surat account.As far east as orissa:In the eighteenth century the country was filled with vast jungles in which tigers, bears and other ferocious wild beasts including lions were found.42 The roads passing through the jungle lands were often visited by such wild beasts. The roadshttps://www.google.com/search?q=%22s...+were+found%22

    From 5 BC through to 188 AD, lions were found in great numbers all over the Indian subcontinent except in the south.https://books.google.com/books?id=-1...0india&f=false

    Long ago, the lions were found everywhere in India

    Early records show that up to the year 1822 lions were found near Saharanpur and Ludhiana in North India.

    The young lions roar after their prey. The sun ariseth, they gather themselves together, and lay them down in their dens." Psalm civ. ver. 20, 21, 22.Sir Charles Malet, then President at Cambay, shewed me the skin of a lioness which had been recently found with some of her whelps, in a forest near the river Sabermatty, not many miles from Cambay.

    Still, though these measures did much to put a stop to internal disorder, Gujarat, for several years after it came under Imperial control, continued to be much disturbed by insurrections among the nobles, and so imperfectly protected was it from the attacks of foreign enemies that between the years A.d. 1573 and 1609 each of its three richest cities—Ahmadabad, Cambay, and Suratull of thievish beastly men, and savage beasts such as lions and tigers ; from Ahmadabad to Cambay the road was through sands and woods much infested by thieves; from Cambay to Broach it was a woody and dangerous journey

    The uncultivated and wood tracts abound in wild animals of various kinds. Lions, though not generally supposed to be found in the country, have been seen even in the vicinity of Cambay; and tigers are very common, sometimes so large as to weigh 250 lbs. Leopards, hyaenas, wolves, foxes, jackals, and wild hogs, are the ordinary inhabitants of the swamps and jungles.

    Emperor Jahangir, witnessing a lion fight in india:



    Jahangir Killed a lion in india that weighed 680 lbs

    Jahangir killed 86 lions :
    • Thread Starter

    Lions in china:

    The first record of a live lion traveling to China appears in the History of the Later Han(《后汉书》). In 87 CE, envoys from the Parthian Empire brought gifts of exotic animals including lions, zebu, and ostriches to the court of Liu Da, Emperor Zhang of Han (汉章帝). A half century later, in 133, the ruler of Kashgar also paid tribute to the Han court with a gift of lions. Records from this period describe these magnificent and fierce creatures from the exotic and distant Western Regions(西域). Their arrival invariably attracted the attention of the residents in the Han capital. When the Mongolian khans ruled from Beijing (Yuan Dynasty, 1206 – 1368), they also enjoyed presents of lions sent to them from their fellow Mongol rulers in Western Asia. A famous 16th-century record of China travels published by the Persian trader Ali Akbar Khan describes Muslim traders traveling the Silk Road and bringing lions and other large cats to the court of the Ming Empire (1368 – 1644), and which also fetched a high price among Chinese traders in exotic species.

    The fifith-century monk Huilin believed that the lion was nothing more than the suanni (狻猊), who frequently appears as a mix of lion and dragon and is one of the nine sons of the dragon king.Lions also played an important part of Hindu and Buddhist iconography. The Lion Capital of Ashoka, a pillar adorned at the top with a sculpture of four lions, is located at the Buddhist holy site of Sarnath. The pillar dates back to 250 BCE and is today the official emblem of the Republic of India.


    A lion slaps on the face of a tiger as they fight for the control of a pool at a zoo in Nanjing, east China's Jiangsu province July 18, 2004. The lion finally occupied thecool water of the pool in the summer heat wave after it defeated its challenger in two minutes.

    The same holds true of lions sent to the empror kangzi 1600-1700

    Suan ni, another name for lion:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=quP_AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA220&l pg=PA220&dq=Suan%27ni+lion+eat+t igers&source=bl&ots=Q-H-iwFVre&sig=aJAQnnOYwo7MtM9rs_HSO UKRPg4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj__ 4K9-crLAhUFLmMKHZqnCSwQ6AEIPzAJ#v=on epage&q=Suan'ni%20lion%20eat%20t igers&f=false

    The use of the name Suan-ni in the caption of the plate for the lion is of interest as it stresses the otherworldly aspect of the beast...by the Han period, it being described as : 'a catlike animal which eats tigers and leopards and comes from the West'.

    A young lion said to eat tigers:

    A photo of a suan ni aka lion:





    Suan Ni is a Chinese ancient lion title. Zhan Cat Zhan sound zhan, tigers leopards eat, I do not know what kind of animal. "Biography" unearthed in Emperor Wu Tai-year period, according to Zhou Mu major world tour thing (BC 900 years). There was presumably Zhan cat, Mu probably seen a lion.


    (Suan Ni) that is also a Western lion, when Emperor Shun of Han Feng Shule the king to offer cattle and lion "Biography", saying: day go five hundred miles Suan Ni "(" Ya commentaries. . Juan Shiyi " Han Xun Yue" before the Han Dynasty . volume 12 ":" Wu Yi country to Chang'an 15,300 years, the lion, rhino. "this is probably the first time in Chinese" lion "word, AD 200 years, than the Guo Pu" lion "word roughly Baiyu early years.Suan Ni is a Chinese ancient lion title. Zhan Cat Zhan sound Zhan , tigers leopards eat,



    according to this source, thousands of lions were sent to china from 200BC, till the 17th century:

    Chinese zoo

    And japan too:

    Spectacle hut from the Edo period is going to remain as one of the also of the are but animals of spectacle will change the appearance as Circus Circus from around about the Meiji repertoire.

    It was examined for first that began as a circus. According to that was examined by the Internet Circus, to Japan for the first time American Risley Circus is in Yokohama to Motoharu of the spectacle of Westerners have been to Japan to Japan first year (1864), the second time to Japan France Soulier feat of horsemanship delegation in 1871 (1871), the third time is 1886 came from Italy (1886) Charine circus troupe (6) visited Japan is, it is are you circus box office, including the beasts.

    According to the Akune Iwao (1988), in order to full-scale Yano Zoo, Yano IwaFutoshi is, but go to Kobe is decided to Germany to go in order to buy in the Lion, introduction of animal quotient of peace Nakata in, through the Bergman firm, even without travel negotiation of Lion purchased unity from Hagenbeck Zoo, and will be able to import, by this lion, Yano visited the zoo says the is to hit the jackpot. It is a story of 1907 (1907), it to Yano visited Zoo, to buy, such as leopard and tigers, it has been to a full-fledged zoo, nationwide by the lion came from Germany in out popular, at that time people even less people who viewed Lion until now, nobody doubt people are had not.

    Yano visited the zoo by the popularity of this lion is the second of the zoo organized, is of the Japanese archipelago continue to patrol divided into two hands. Those who second zoo, Yano Shotaro nephew of IwaFutoshi Yano is left as Kanshu, in the name of animal museum in order to distinguish it from the zoo of the headquarters, was than the beasts of the signboard Kilimanjaro production of Lion had It was Although the there were these two cyclic Zoo, from the beginning in 1909, it was like until around forty-five years. This, Meiji forty-two people of Zoo headquarters between forty five years from the year is to have the box office over to Korea.

    So the japanese traded with hagenbeck and frank bostock


    Huilin zoo

    (Hongwu Emperor of Ming dynasty)


    In Ming times, the lion was for the first rank and second rank officers, but after 1662 the First Rank had this changed to a Qilin. A leopard indicated third rank; tiger for fourth rank; bear for fifth rank; young tiger


    But I guess this is a no brainer, since when these lions were brought over to china, they probably fought and killed the south china tiger, which this tiger is only the size of a jaguar:

    The South China tiger is the smallest tiger subspecies from mainland Asia, but bigger than the subspecies known from the Sunda islands such as the Sumatran tiger. Males measure from 230 to 265 cm (91 to 104 in) between the pegs, and weigh 130 to 175 kg (287 to 386 lb). Females are smaller and measure 220 to 240 cm (87 to 94 in) between the pegs, and weigh 110 to 115 kg (243 to 254 lb).

    So this explains why the lion was held over the tiger in china, he was much the more powerful animal when they fought.
    • Thread Starter



    The lion you see today at Gir is a far cry from the tall, heavy, woolly-maned animalthat roamed the plains of North Indiacenturies ago.

    Lions once ranged from Asia Minor to the northern Indian plains andalong the Narmada river.

    Lion near the sagar lake

    "Lahore appears to me the filthiest city I ever entered, and can boast of but few lions.

    of Nandta, not far from the western bank of the Chumbul, in whose glades every species of game, from the lordly lion to the timid hare, abounded.

    Copy of a Record in the hands of Kiishnaya Bra- min at Nagar containing an account of the discourses between a Lion and a Tiger.

    the lion's range in historical times reached as far eastward as the valley of the Sone River

    indicates that this forest was full of lions, tigers, pigs and herds of elephants. The species mentioned ... This Kausamvi kingdom was a continuation of the forest mentioned before and is near the bank of the Sone river.

    HISSAMPOOR.—A town in the territory of Oude, five miles from the left bank of the Gogra river, and 48 miles N .E. by E. from Lucknow. Lat. 27° 13’, long. 81° 39'.HISSAR, in the British district of Hurreeanah, lieut.—gov. of the NJV. Provinces, a town on the route from the city of Delhi to Bhutneer. It is situate on the branch made by Feroz Shah from the Delhi Canal to supply water for irrigation, as Well as for the use of the numerous host of followers brought by him into this arid tract, which was his favourite hunting-ground, the neighbouring wastes harbouring lions and tigers, https://books.google.com/books?id=2f...0lions&f=false

    So what does all these places the ashoka eddicts where there are both lion and tiger of india have in common? Rivers...much like how all these sources state they found lions and tigers at, like the sone river, the ganges river, the narmada river ect...so hence this exploits the old theory that lions and tigers would not encounter each other because of prefered habitats, one open country (lions) the other dense jungle thickets (tigers), but this titlement prefer has nothing to do with their ranges, you can sometimes find tigers in open meadows, and you can find lions in thick bush jungle-like areas, but regardless of what they preffer, they still need water to drink, and the rivers stretch for hundreds of miles, for instance the account where a lion killed a tiger along the tapti river, these rivers open up into full view and make anything on its bank drinking water visible:

    Tapti river:

    Hence if lions and tigers ventured towards a river bank, they would be fully exposed and able to be seen all along side it, and both these animals need water weekly just to stay alive, so they would frequent these areas regardless, theres more than just water at these places for predators, but their prey need water as well, hence this would give a added reason why lions and tigers would frequent these areas, since they can more easily stalk an ambush their prey:

    So by both lions and tigers needing water and prey, the rivers supplies both these elements for them, hence if they both were drinking water at the same time, or hunting a prey along the banks of the river, because the landscape opens up the two would see each other, and these would be the places where they had fought more than any other, hence the lion killed a tiger near the tapti river and the ganges yamuna river.

    So its a waste of time trying to look through isolated jungles, mountain ranges, and open areas, because both on the most part would remain in their own ecological habitats, again, the ashoka edicts are a good stable basis of what could have already been land marks for the indian lions historic ranges...

    Dont you find it odd that the ashoka edicts are exactly on rivers?

    I mean pin point, the sources in the first post stated, most experts agree that the lion came in from the north west, hence it looks like the lions just migrated and followed along the rivers, why wouldn't they? It has water, and prey availability, what else would the lion need? Why would the ashoka edicts be more of the man, if so... why didnt they build statues of the human man ashoka like every other ruler does? Thats a huge tie in as well, since the ashoka edicts has four lions facing all directions I would only assume that facing four directions would mean the ruling of all four corners of india, again why lions? Because lions were there at the time, science proves through archaeology and oesteology (statues of lions and bones excavated too) and dated lions in india at least 6,000 years ago, which rivals the oldest civilization of man there, surely ashoka understood this that lions were the most powerful animal at the time (what else could out compete a pride of lions? almost nothing) and he commemorated the lions prowess by building edicts and monuments of lions since at the time there must have hundreds of thousands of lions there.

    Gulab Bagh

    Fight between tiger and lion or tiger and wild boar were often arranged for entertainment. Just at the commencement of the fifth decade of the zoo, it was stocked with many rare animals and birds like a pair of black leopards, rhinos, ostriches, Holock gibbons, zebras, tigers, lions, leopards, mouse deer, and other deer and antelopes, numerous varieties of birds and many rare pheasants and parrots.
    • Thread Starter

    As there are several cases where lions have defeated/killed multiple tigers at once:

    Lions are not sneaky, but a lion can kill a tiger any time. Once I saw a lion in a mixed animal act kill three tigers.

    Emperor, the Most Unruly Of All Lions. With the possible exception of Denver and Baltimore, two bad lions which I mentioned in a previous story, I believe the most unruly lion I ever attempted to train was a line specimen of forest-bred South African beast named Emperor. Who derived his name through his ability to rule, by brute strength, all animals with which he came in contact I had engaged in several battles with Emperor...

    The text below reads,"The fearless lion king, who claims that lions are the most intelligent of all jungle cats is seated on "Dutch" the fiercest cat in his collection and the monarch of the park. He has whipped every tiger, leopard, or lion in the huge collection when ever they have disputed his leadership."


    These animals as Clyde beatty stated, are wild bred and they attain all their combativeness:


    • Thread Starter

Do you think parents should charge rent?
Useful resources

Ask the Community Team

Got a question about the site content or our moderation? Ask here.

Welcome Lounge

Welcome Lounge

We're a friendly bunch. Post here if you're new to TSR.

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.