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2 Romanian teens get 2 years for killing a man in London Watch

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    (Original post by inhuman)
    You stupid victim blamer.

    You are absolutely right that he was reckless to throw the first punch. But that does in no way, shape, or form excuse beating someone to death. To keep beating on him when he is on the ground, to stamp on him. That's sick. These animals should be locked away for eternity.
    At which point did I not condemn their actions? All I'm saying is he should have not done anything in the first place. Their sentence reflects the fact they reacted and did not instigate the voilence. Also locking people away is not the best option, look in to Norway's prison system and they are the most lenient and focus on rehabilitation (and have lowest reoffending rates).

    Human instinct is to punch someone back when they hit you. If there are three of them, then you are an idiot for not knowing how to handle situations like that with anything other than voilence.
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    (Original post by whydoidothis?)
    So they are Romanians.
    no. They do have, in many cases, Romanian citizenship- but they aren't Romanians (or Bulgarian, or Slovakian). They are Roma.
    unlike Brits, many continental countries actually have a somehow set cultural identity.
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    (Original post by simon_g)
    no. They do have, in many cases, Romanian citizenship- but they aren't Romanians (or Bulgarian, or Slovakian). They are Roma.
    unlike Brits, many continental countries actually have a somehow set cultural identity.
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    (Original post by Kieran1996)
    At which point did I not condemn their actions? All I'm saying is he should have not done anything in the first place. Their sentence reflects the fact they reacted and did not instigate the voilence. Also locking people away is not the best option, look in to Norway's prison system and they are the most lenient and focus on rehabilitation (and have lowest reoffending rates).

    Human instinct is to punch someone back when they hit you. If there are three of them, then you are an idiot for not knowing how to handle situations like that with anything other than voilence.
    Victim blaming =/= not condemning perps.

    You blamed him for starting it. And I agreed, that was stupid and he "deserved" a beating in the sense that he could not have complained had they simply beaten him. But the level of aggression and violence it takes to actually kill someone...that is completely out of proportion.
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    this is why we must introduce sharia law
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    (Original post by Dez)
    They plead guilty to manslaughter and one of them was a minor. No murder charge (he died in hospital the next day). So sentencing looks 100% on the money to me. They wouldn't be deported as they are most likely British citizens, having lived here for 6 years already.
    The ratio decidendi was spot on, the sentencing is light. The man attacked them first (albeit with provocation) and they killed him acting in excessive self defence. Its been held as an act of reckless manslaughter due to the mitigating fact the builder punched them.

    The CPS struck a deal with defence council as manslaughter is a discretionary sentence, hence the guilty plea. Due to the first act of violence being on behalf of the builder, manslaughter was almost the perfect charge for this case - but i think 5 years would have been more appropriate with 3 years referral for mitigated GBH for the younger one.

    They did stamp on an unconscious man until they inflicted wounds so awful they caused death.
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    (Original post by simon_g)
    no. They do have, in many cases, Romanian citizenship- but they aren't Romanians (or Bulgarian, or Slovakian). They are Roma.
    unlike Brits, many continental countries actually have a somehow set cultural identity.
    These luvvies doesn't know what it means to have a cultural identity. I wish I had one left.
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Victim blaming =/= not condemning perps.

    You blamed him for starting it. And I agreed, that was stupid and he "deserved" a beating in the sense that he could not have complained had they simply beaten him. But the level of aggression and violence it takes to actually kill someone...that is completely out of proportion.
    Which is why they have been sent to prison. Regardless, I agree that is their actions were barbaric, I think we're on the same wavelength

    Morale of the story: if people are being stupid in public leave them too it unless they are voilent them maybe stop them; in truth it's shocking no one helped, it's scary to think people just watch and let it carry o
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    (Original post by Erebor)
    100% they were romani gypsies, not romanians. As a romanian I cringe at the confusion, they are a completely different race and culture that migrated from India hundreds of years ago. Romanians have enough faults as it is, we don't need to be confused with gypsies on top of that. They are the south asian looking people you see begging in the streets or sleeping in Hyde Park on a pile of rubbish. Virtually the entirety of ''romanian crime'' is done by gypsies, the actual romanians are much harder to notice since they look european, they integrate, work and pay their taxes. If anything they are the ones being by abused through poverty wages and working conditions. It's like saying the typical englishman is Mo from Whitechapel who married his cousin.
    Exactly, and I've romany neighbours and they are so vile, they go through rubbish for scrap metals and their kids "don't speak English" but they certainly know ow to swear at their elders where I am
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    (Original post by GonvilleBromhead)
    The ratio decidendi was spot on, the sentencing is light. The man attacked them first (albeit with provocation) and they killed him acting in excessive self defence. Its been held as an act of reckless manslaughter due to the mitigating fact the builder punched them.

    The CPS struck a deal with defence council as manslaughter is a discretionary sentence, hence the guilty plea. Due to the first act of violence being on behalf of the builder, manslaughter was almost the perfect charge for this case - but i think 5 years would have been more appropriate with 3 years referral for mitigated GBH for the younger one.

    They did stamp on an unconscious man until they inflicted wounds so awful they caused death.
    I don't like to comment too specifically on this sort of stuff because to be honest, unless you're actually in the courtroom from start to finish you can't really know absolutely everything that happened. I don't disagree with you, but I think the sentencing was at least in the right ballpark and so I'm willing to trust the judge's, er, judgement in this case.
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    (Original post by Dez)
    I don't like to comment too specifically on this sort of stuff because to be honest, unless you're actually in the courtroom from start to finish you can't really know absolutely everything that happened. I don't disagree with you, but I think the sentencing was at least in the right ballpark and so I'm willing to trust the judge's, er, judgement in this case.
    It was certainly more appropriate than the 15yrs - life a lot of people seem to be determined to give them. I entirely get the idea of reneging specificity in such instances (i was reading the forum off the back of my last exam and was in full on legal consideration mode =P ), and certainly if we can't trust judges who can we trust.

    I'd argue part of their role is public facilitation and that even in mitigating circumstances a little more harshness may be required for those who go above and beyond the law so excessively. It wasn't a case of excessive self defence where in the moment they massively overreacted in immediacy ie stabbing him with scissors or shooting him three times - there was a drawn out process of beating whilst he was unconscious which implies a degree of intent.
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    (Original post by GonvilleBromhead)
    It was certainly more appropriate than the 15yrs - life a lot of people seem to be determined to give them. I entirely get the idea of reneging specificity in such instances (i was reading the forum off the back of my last exam and was in full on legal consideration mode =P ), and certainly if we can't trust judges who can we trust.

    I'd argue part of their role is public facilitation and that even in mitigating circumstances a little more harshness may be required for those who go above and beyond the law so excessively. It wasn't a case of excessive self defence where in the moment they massively overreacted in immediacy ie stabbing him with scissors or shooting him three times - there was a drawn out process of beating whilst he was unconscious which implies a degree of intent.
    The supposed killing blow came after the fact. After they had beat the man and stamped on him, members of the public were helping him up, then one of the assailants ran up and hit the victim hard enough in the face that it was heard more than seen, as was the moment when the victims head hit the floor.

    It could have been argued the confrontation was over at this point, so self defense shouldn't have been a viable plea. At best, crime of passion.
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    (Original post by HanSoloLuck)
    The supposed killing blow came after the fact. After they had beat the man and stamped on him, members of the public were helping him up, then one of the assailants ran up and hit the victim hard enough in the face that it was heard more than seen, as was the moment when the victims head hit the floor.

    It could have been argued the confrontation was over at this point, so self defense shouldn't have been a viable plea. At best, crime of passion.
    "The victim was knocked to the floor when he challenged them, before being repeatedly stamped on, punched and kicked. Then as he tried to stagger to his feet, the 17-year-old felled Mr Breen with a single punch before the yobs ran off, leaving the victim unconscious with blood pouring from his head"

    That is still excessive self defence. The victim wasn't rendered unconscious, by my reading, until after the final punch that eventually killed him. There was no break in the attack, it was all within the immediacy of the victims punch. I would still support my earlier assessment, they did act in self defence but in an entirely unreasonable manner and therefore are guilty of manslaughter. When a person is in a hostile state of mind they often find it hard to break their response off appropriately and go slightly over the top. That still classes as self defence. In this scenario they went far over the top as to what is reasonable to being grossly excessive and caused death.

    I think the original conviction is sound - albeit as i said i would have given him a bit longer. I dont think (from the top of my head) crime of passion is a legitimate plea in the UK. I imagine the only alternative would have been a murder charge for intending GBH and having a life sentence (albeit likely with a low minimum term) - which is undeniably excessive for the situation
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    (Original post by simon_g)
    no. They do have, in many cases, Romanian citizenship- but they aren't Romanians (or Bulgarian, or Slovakian). They are Roma.
    unlike Brits, many continental countries actually have a somehow set cultural identity.
    Then they are Romanians in a civic sense, if not an ethnic one. Just as a Croat from Bosnia can accurately describe themselves as Bosnian in a civic sense.

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    (Original post by Erebor)
    Romanians have enough faults as it is, we don't need to be confused with gypsies on top of that.
    So is antiziganist racism one of those faults, or is that just you?

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    This whole post and it's replies are irking me. Firstly what does it matter if they're Romanian? So it would have been more justified and okay if they were white British kids? let's not turn a blind eye to the brutal crimes committed by white kids.
    Secondly, so what if the man threw the first punch? He was fifty three! That's close to my grandparents age. And if they were to stoop so low as to physically retaliate to an elderly man, a punch would suffice, there is no justification whatsoever to the fact that they beat a man until the point that he was admitted to a hospital, and then, death!
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    (Original post by Erebor)
    100% they were romani gypsies, not romanians. As a romanian I cringe at the confusion, they are a completely different race and culture that migrated from India hundreds of years ago. Romanians have enough faults as it is, we don't need to be confused with gypsies on top of that. They are the south asian looking people you see begging in the streets or sleeping in Hyde Park on a pile of rubbish. Virtually the entirety of ''romanian crime'' is done by gypsies, the actual romanians are much harder to notice since they look european, they integrate, work and pay their taxes. If anything they are the ones being by abused through poverty wages and working conditions. It's like saying the typical englishman is Mo from Whitechapel who married his cousin.
    haa... are you a closet racist or something

    You don't need to hoard any resentment to a group of people who migrated from xxx country "100s of years ago". Drop it m8.
 
 
 
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