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    (Original post by BanterBus69)
    Foreign oligarchs are buying up our housing. At present, more than 130 of the 214 apartments sold in the 50-storey St George Wharf Tower (the tallest residential building in the UK) in Vauxhall are believed to be owned by overseas investors. This drives the prices up for young people. Do you want to be living with your parents till you are 50 years old?

    Source: http://moneyweek.com/st-george-wharf...s-empty-tower/
    It does but you're only concentrating on the demand side. There's a supply side you're completely ignoring because it doesn't fit in neatly with your story. It's possible that if no new housing or very few new housing is built that 20somethings must live with their parents until they're 50 because of a shortage of housing.

    But high prices in properties attract investors (high prices everywhere attract investors). You would be mad not to want to invest in the property market if demand for housing is insanely high and supply so low as you seem to be suggesting.

    Investors would, in your scenario, flock to the property market to satisfy demand. If they don't and that was my point before, then it must be because there's something wrong in the property market or the economy in general (uncertainty because of a recession or absurdly strict zoning/building regulations or w/e), not because there are too many Bulgarians renting 2 bedroom flats in East London (nor because billionaires are buying stupidly overpriced properties in London and boosting the UK economy).
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    (Original post by Frankie32)
    What annoys me about the EU referendum is that the people who are voting leave are forgetting the main reason the European Union was created. It was created as a method to stop European wars that were leading to world wars. My main source as to why being in the EU is much better is because Britain has not been in a world war or a European war since being a member. If we leave the EU we undermine this purpose. Britain is becoming more nationalistic which was a cause for world war 1 and 2. Leaving the European union seems like a solution because we will have control of our budget but this is short term. Our budget will dramatically decrease without the single market and excellent trade which the European union allows.

    I watched question time the other day and Boris Johnson made a statement that leaving the EU will make lower income households richer. SO WHY DOES HE WANT TO LEAVE. It makes no sense. He is simply lying to the public( which is a trend in conservative politics) providing us with things we want to hear. We need to gather our own sources. You are correct. Your stat is relevant but it has been strategically picked by the leave campaign to highlight a reason to leave. In reality to leave is good in a very short term but in the longer term it will be disastrous. We will isolate ourselves against a developing power that we could have been part of. We could even cause other nations to leave the EU by undermining it if we leave and this could easily cause another European war or world war. (just look at Russia's behavior at the euro cup, not a member and are attacking other nations on a wide scale most likely due to national pride.) That is the main reason I want to remain as it is historically proven so far that the EU has minimized the number of European wars.
    Minimised the number of wars? What about the Iraq War or the War in Afghanistan. If we leave, we will still be a member of NATO.
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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    What? A Brexit doesn't mean to cut off migration altogether.
    It simply means the UK can control immigration; filter the people who can come in or who are allowed in, it means the allowance of greater background checks usw. usf. It simply means we're not obligated to allow EU citizens through in most circumstances.
    or this can be achieved by reforms within the EU......leaving isn't necessary.
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    (Original post by Sisuphos)
    It does but you're only concentrating on the demand side. There's a supply side you're completely ignoring because it doesn't fit in neatly with your story. It's possible that if no new housing or very few new housing is built that 20somethings must live with their parents until they're 50 because of a shortage of housing.

    But high prices in properties attract investors (high prices everywhere attract investors). You would be mad not to want to invest in the property market if demand for housing is insanely high and supply so low as you seem to be suggesting.

    Investors would, in your scenario, flock to the property market to satisfy demand. If they don't and that was my point before, then it must be because there's something wrong in the property market or the economy in general (uncertainty because of a recession or absurdly strict zoning/building regulations or w/e), not because there are too many Bulgarians renting 2 bedroom flats in East London (nor because billionaires are buying stupidly overpriced properties in London and boosting the UK economy).
    Technically, it is both of the above reasons. Good luck buying your own home, love.
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    (Original post by BanterBus69)
    Technically, it is both of the above reasons. Good luck buying your own home, love.
    Again, that's just the demand side - Bulgarians and foreign oligarchs. And it doesn't even tell half of the story. But I see there's no point in debating.
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    (Original post by banterbus69)
    minimised the number of wars? What about the iraq war or the war in afghanistan. If we leave, we will still be a member of nato.
    what the heck are you talking about???? I said 'european wars' . If there was a world alternative of the eu i doubt there would've have been the iraq war and afghanistan war!
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    (Original post by Frankie32)
    or this can be achieved by reforms within the EU......leaving isn't necessary.
    I don't think so...
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    (Original post by Frankie32)
    what the heck are you talking about???? I said 'european wars' . If there was a world alternative of the eu i doubt there would've have been the iraq war and afghanistan war!
    Since you asked:

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    Thanks for emphasising my point.......not one 'BRITISH WAR' in Europe!
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    (Original post by Sisuphos)
    Again, that's just the demand side - Bulgarians and foreign oligarchs. And it doesn't even tell half of the story. But I see there's no point in debating.
    Average UK house price: £284,000.

    Average London house price: £534,785

    Average UK graduate salary: £18,000
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    (Original post by Frankie32)
    Thanks for emphasising my point.......not one 'BRITISH WAR' in Europe!
    The Troubles
    Suez Crisis
    Kosovo War

    All European wars - and the UK was involved.
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    (Original post by BanterBus69)
    The Troubles
    Suez Crisis
    Kosovo War

    All European wars - and the UK was involved.
    I've got revision to do. Lets agree to disagree.
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    (Original post by Frankie32)
    or this can be achieved by reforms within the EU......leaving isn't necessary.
    This would unfairly discriminate against other EU member states.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Typical British people making an informed decision based on rational thought and evidence-based decision making.
    There is nothing rational about rejecting democracy for apparent short term benefit. Infact the complete opposite, human history up to this very day is literally one very long timeline of various groups, countries, tribes, individuals, ideologies, religions trying to impose themselves on others and facing resistance of brave people shedding blood to have their voice, their right to self determination heard and accepted.

    You are literally willing to forgo this for a slightly cheaper phone bills on your European holiday and the comforting yet demonstrably untrue assertions "We are stronger together"

    If the EU presidents wore a crown instead of a suit, I feel like your view might differ

    Maybe in 10 years time when the EU are marching their army into conflicts you strongly oppose, you will finally realise what a naive and myopic view you held
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    (Original post by Frankie32)
    Leaving the EU would be a mistake as it's a gamble.Some gambles are worth taking but this is definitely not worth it as your not just gambling your own life but our future generations too.
    If anything, staying is the actual gamble. People talk about staying in the EU like it's the status-quo, and about brexit being the change. I see it as the other way round. The EU is not a stagnant thing, it's an ever changing union with more laws, rules and countries joining. It's also subject to possible economic turmoil that can stem from its "weaker" member countries.
    So if anything, leaving would be the status-quo since by leaving, you know what you get, which is what we already have. Whilst with staying, you don't necessarily know what you get as its influenced by what's going on in 27 other countries.
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    Yes!! Yes!! Yes!!
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    I have heard some extremely intelligent economists talking about Brexit. I am not an economist so the next best thing is for me to listen to the expert consensus, and that is overwhelmingly in favour of supporting remaining in the EU. They are not idiots, I have faith that they've got a good reason to support what they're saying. Certainly a more credible basis than whatever the Brexit campaign decides they're going to say at a particular moment, which isn't supported by any experts.
    They've got a very good reason to support staying; self-interest. I mean, they're economists! By definition their job is made a lot easier if we stay. Uncertainty is the bane of any economist's life, cause it has a nasty habit of making them look stupid. Classic example would be our joining the euro. Whether we joined or retained sterling as our currency would have huge ramifications economically, to the point where it becomes virtually impossible to predict with any accuracy what would happen. Which had the side effect of making all the economists who said we'd be screwed if we didn't join (which was the overwhelming majority) look rather daft. And this referendum is rather the same. No one can claim to predict with any great accuracy, how things will unfold if we leave. It's too great a change; and with absolutely no precedent to base it off, you simply can't make accurate predictions.

    I think it's summed up quite neatly by this quote from Evan Esar

    "An economist is an expert who will know tomorrow why the things he predicted yesterday, didn't happen today".
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    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    They've got a very good reason to support staying; self-interest. I mean, they're economists! By definition their job is made a lot easier if we stay. Uncertainty is the bane of any economist's life, cause it has a nasty habit of making them look stupid. Classic example would be our joining the euro. Whether we joined or retained sterling as our currency would have huge ramifications economically, to the point where it becomes virtually impossible to predict with any accuracy what would happen. Which had the side effect of making all the economists who said we'd be screwed if we didn't join (which was the overwhelming majority) look rather daft. And this referendum is rather the same. No one can claim to predict with any great accuracy, how things will unfold if we leave. It's too great a change; and with absolutely no precedent to base it off, you simply can't make accurate predictions.

    I think it's summed up quite neatly by this quote from Evan Esar

    "An economist is an expert who will know tomorrow why the things he predicted yesterday, didn't happen today".
    Again, conveniently you've built up a story which allows you to ignore every expert's opinion. How come an economist's view is suddenly valid and acceptable when they support your agenda?
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Again, conveniently you've built up a story which allows you to ignore every expert's opinion. How come an economist's view is suddenly valid and acceptable when they support your agenda?
    An economist's view isn't valid when they support Brexit. I'm not voting on the basis of any given economists' predictions. Cause just as the Remain camp wheels out predictions based on laughably daft assertions, Economists for Brexit make unduly optimistic assertions as the basis for their model. It's not nearly as whacky as what some of the Remain economists are touting, but nonetheless strikes me as not exactly realistic. If you're voting on the basis of what any economists are guessing will happen after a Brexit, which itself is based on economists guessing what the conditions of a Brexit would be, you may as well look to your horoscope for the answer. All we can say with any certainty is that in the immediate aftermath of Brexit, the value of the pound would drop somewhat and it's likely we'd see less positive growth for the first couple of quarters after the referendum. Any more than that and you're into the realm of wild speculation.

    I'm voting to leave the EU for a few reasons. Firstly, no one has presented anything like a suggestion to solving the various calamities (I gave some examples previously) which the EU is walking towards. As ever, the EU is crippled by inactivity - it took a year and a half before they even started talking to Turkey about stopping migrant flow, and the Germans have already cocked that up. Too many different people, with different cultures and different ideologies and different ideas of how they should be run, makes it virtually impossible for any meaningful solutions to be found, as evidenced by pretty much the entirety of the EU's existence.

    Secondly, the people who run the EU are unilaterally pushing closer integration, in spite of the overwhelming popular opinion being against it. It's a perversion of democracy. No one really wants this closer union except a bunch of bureaucrats in Brussels/Strasbourg - and if you want an example of EU ludicrousness, how about the ridiculous waste of resources that is the transfer of EU headquarters from Brussels to Strasbourg and back every month?

    Thirdly, our economy is fundamentally different to those on the continent. Our income is built primarily on our services sector and especially our financial services, whereas continental european economies are dominated by manufacturing. The economic policy that would best suit ourselves will never be the same as that which will best serve the continental countries, and given as they outnumber us we'll lose out. We're already seeing the start of this with the push for closer financial regulations, which will eventually cripple our services sector.

    Fourthly, our contribution to the EU is going to go up sharply. Continental Europe is stuck in a stagflationary cycle, whilst our economy is doing rather well by comparison. As this trend continues - and it is definitely set to continue - it is inevitable that our contributions will go up sooner of later. Coupled with the similarly inevitable erosion of our rebate, and soon we'll be a second Germany; bankrolling the EU, or more accurately covering the costs of the poorer East European countries.

    Fifthly, immigration. I don't have an especial problem with people coming into our country, but an abundance of cheap unskilled labour is punching through the wage floor and dragging everyone else's pay down with it. I welcome the introduction of a National Living Wage, but this will inevitably draw even more unskilled workers into the UK labour market, which will end up counteracting any positives that low-paid workers would have gleaned. Perhaps more worryingly, is that over the next 3-10 years (depending on which EU country they live in) the migrants who have entered over the past couple years will be entitled to EU passports, giving them unfettered access to Britain. Now whilst they obviously aren't all terrorists and criminals, they do pretty unanimously have incredibly backwards views on women, homosexuals and democracy, amongst other things. It would be frankly dangerous to allow these kind of people, with these kind of ideologies, a place in Britain.

    I'll finish on a point which I think gets less credit than it's due; national identity. I don't feel European, and neither do most people. Certainly not in the way they do on the continent. We identify more with Americans, Australians or even some asian cultures than we do with the French or the Germans, we share more culture with them. We really don't have a shared identity with those who live on the continent. Which makes the whole desire to tether ourselves to them, especially when they're faltering so obviously, rather obvious.

    That's just an overview of why I want to leave. And it's why I object to the slightly (incredibly) patronising view that most Remainers take on those who want to leave. I'm not absent-mindedly disregarding the arguments for staying, and I'm well aware that leaving will result in an economic hit in the short term. It's entirely possible to weight up the pros and cons intelligently and come to the conclusion that we would be better off leaving. Whilst I disagree with those who come to the conclusion we should stay, I respect their opinion and don't presume they must be idiots or communists. I just wish Remainers would return the favour, instead of taking a tone which suggests anyone who wants to leave is an idiot, or a quasi-fascist.
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    (Original post by MedArsey)
    Typical British people too scared to stand up for themselves and let their voices be heard, its time to change, its time to leave.
    This is not based on a rational premise, but rather emotional sentiment
 
 
 
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