The TSR Palestinian Society Watch

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#81
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#81
I'll join, if the idea is to support the movement for Palestinian statehood. I won't join if the society is to single out Israel for criticism. Perhaps we could encourage nationalist movements generally rather than one specifically?
Nationalism when you have no country or when you are oppressed is quite different to the nationalism found in the G8 countries.

[Homelands for every people could be our motto? Who could disagree with that?]
I disagree with that.
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ArthurOliver
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#82
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#82
Northu, you should treat all peoples equally. Valuing some cultures over others and giving rights to some peoples but not others opens you up to charges of racism and supremacism.
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Phonicsdude
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#83
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#83
The problem comes when definine 'people'.
Do the basques deserve their own country?
Would this encompass just the spanish section? Or just the french? Or both? Or would there be two separate countries?

countries are not separated by #people# and people are not separated by countries?
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ArthurOliver
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#84
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#84
(Original post by Phonicsdude)
The problem comes when definine 'people'.
Do the basques deserve their own country?
Would this encompass just the spanish section? Or just the french? Or both? Or would there be two separate countries?

countries are not separated by #people# and people are not separated by countries?
Yes, the clash of interests between larger inclusive 'nations' and wannabee breakaway 'nations' is a growing problem. I would think the Basques have as strong a claim as any to self-determination and national legal homeland. Language, genes, history, culture. They say they are a people, who has a right to argue?
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#85
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#85
Northu, you should treat all peoples equally. Valuing some cultures over others and giving rights to some peoples but not others opens you up to charges of racism and supremacism.
Why do people who have never had a homeland or maybe had a brief one hundreds of years ago need a country? If they have social justice then what's the problem? Language was used as a measure for self determination the most prized of Woodrwo Wilson's '14 points' of the Treaty of Versailles. Imagine if you applied that to a county like Iran. There are 74 langauge is total spoken. It would be ridiculous.
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aqeel1101
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#86
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#86
Hi, can i join? Ive been watching the coverage of the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and, without starting a debate in this forum, I would just like to say that it is saddening to watch people being thrown out of their homes. However, what did the Palestinians feel like then they were ejected in 1948 and packed off to refugee camps? Why is their suffering different from the suffering of the Israelis? Atleast when the Israelis are being taken out they are given plenty of time and ushered out by soldiers without guns. When Palestians are being chucked out they are just told to get out and in the mean time the peace activists who are trying to safe guard the children are killed!! http://telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jht.../ixportal.html .Nice to see that the immunity is finally being lifted.

In sum, suffering is saddening who ever is on the receiving end, however it is tough to show the full extent of my sympthy on a people [the settlers in gaza] who thrived on, and who's houses were built from the suffering of others.
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ArthurOliver
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#87
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#87
(Original post by Northumbrian)
Why do people who have never had a homeland or maybe had a brief one hundreds of years ago need a country? If they have social justice then what's the problem? Language was used as a measure for self determination the most prized of Woodrwo Wilson's '14 points' of the Treaty of Versailles. Imagine if you applied that to a county like Iran. There are 74 langauge is total spoken. It would be ridiculous.
It's not simply about language, it's about feeling a separate ethnic identity and the natural desire arising to protect that identity. The Basques are somewhat similar to the Tibetans who are systematically being 'blended out' by the Chinese, the separatist Basques want to make sure that cannot happen to them.

If the Iranians can all get along that's terrific, but history suggests that won't always be the case, from wiki:

[The current governmental policy can be characterised by a mixture of celebrating and furthering cultural diversity under a joint Iranian national umbrella, while holding down (occasionally violently) political separatism. Some ethnic minorities have reported racial or religious discrimination.

Many Iranian provinces have radio and television stations in local language or dialect. School education is in Persian, the Iranian official language, but use of regional languages is allowed under the constitution of the Islamic Republic.

Many members of ethnic minorities have made a successful political career. Most provincial governors and many members of the local ruling classes and clergy are members of the relevant ethnic groups. Many, if not most, members of the national cultural and political elite have mixed roots.

Separatist tendencies, led by the Kurdish Democratic Party of Iran or Komalah in Iranian Kurdistan, for example, had led to frequent unrest and occasional military crackdown in the past. Similar tendencies, though on a smaller scale, in other provinces such as Baluchistan, Khuzestan (see Ethnic politics of Khuzestan) and Iranian Azerbaijan required occasional suppression by police and other security measures.]

Conflict is the rule, goodwill and homelands before conflict escalates should be the general approach. The Czech/Slovak model is a better one than Yugoslavia.

Iran won't exist forever in it's present form, and almost certainly it will be inter-ethnic conflict which changes it's shape, reacting quickly to secessionist sentiment before violent subjugation and violent rebellion (the universal and eternal story) become extreme, is the approach I would take.
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#88
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#88
Iran won't exist forever in it's present form
It will only ever grow.

Iranian Kurds never expressed a wish to be seperate. Their main parties supported Iran. It was only when CIA sponsored SAVAK crackdowns on anti government demonstrations began that some seperatist feeling began to grow.

As for the Arabs they can piss off. They migrated to Khuzestan, very few are indigenous. There are also tens of thousands of Arab refugees in that area as well as tens of thousands of Iraqi Kurds in Iranian Kordestan province.
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#89
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#89
Temporary Leader - Bashment
Temporary Deputy Leader - Northumbrian

Members
Crazy 88
JakC
zaaks786
Kritzinae
Wayvelength
Phonicsdude
Rasta
fisfos815
pugnacious
aqeel1101
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ArthurOliver
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#90
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#90
(Original post by Northumbrian)
It [the Iranian state] will only ever grow. [...] As for the Arabs they can piss off. They migrated to Khuzestan, very few are indigenous.
Wow again...
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zaaks786
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#91
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#91
hey ppl

so whats happening?we seem to have migrated to the bottom of the second page..not a good thing!!!wheres the action??
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ArthurOliver
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#92
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#92
Yup, little education going on. And I was denied membership because I also support other nationalist movements. :confused:

Looks more and more like a racist, supremacist organisation--calling for rights and benefits for one people that the Deputy Leader would deny to other peoples.
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#93
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#93
I think we should have a vote on a leader so we are democratic/ Then the leader can decide who is allowed in.
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#94
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#94
Looks more and more like a racist, supremacist organisation--calling for rights and benefits for one people that the Deputy Leader would deny to other peoples.
Which people do I seek to deny human rights from?
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ArthurOliver
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#95
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#95
(Original post by Northumbrian)
Which people do I seek to deny human rights from?
You can call 'em Human rights if you like, but I didn't. Right to ethno-homelands. Palestinians yes, various Iranian separatists and WNs no.
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#96
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#96
The Palestinian issue is quite different. It is a unique case in the world.

When WNs come out with phrases like 'ethno-homelands' they usually mean mono-ethnic-homelands.
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Longshoredrift80
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#97
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#97
You're right, it is quite a 'unique case' in the world. Never before have a whole 'people' appeared out of nowhere and demanded to return to an area they never controlled and be part of a 'nationality' that never existed. The 'palestinians' are a mechanism for continuing the Arab world's fight against Israel by proxy. Countries like Syria know that they would be screwed if they took on Israel in a proper battle (because they've been screwed trying that several times before) so now they sit back, keep the palestinians in 'poverty' and 'desperation' and let them do the fighting for them.
Seeing as you lot are so big on supporting the 'palestinians' I assume you are also big fans of the 'PLO' and would thus believe in these remarks: "Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identify serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel," said Zuheir Muhsin, the head of the terrorist PLO's "military department" in a March 1977 interview with Trouw, a Dutch daily newspaper.
Or maybe you'd prefer this view: "There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not," Dr. Philip Hitti, an Arab historian representing the Muslim world, told the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry in 1946.

Whoopsies! Drop the lies, the 'palestinians' are barely 40 years old as a 'people', they never formed a nation, they never had a homeland. They were offered a country in 1948, they decided war was a better option and now they're dealing with the consequences of their stupid decisions. Supporting the cause of palestinian nationalism is like trying to sympathise with german nationalism after WW2 - you went to war, risked everything, lost badly, take it.

Also, can I join? I'd love to break this pathetic 'society' down from the inside.
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ArthurOliver
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#98
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#98
(Original post by Northumbrian)
The Palestinian issue is quite different. It is a unique case in the world.
Maybe, but why exactly? If it's their displacement, ethnic displacement is your enemy whoever is on the receiving end, http://www.guardian.co.uk/racism/Sto...363777,00.html
When WNs come out with phrases like 'ethno-homelands' they usually mean mono-ethnic-homelands.
Homelands specifically for one people yes - a combined homeland for 2 or twenty ethnies wouldn't be an ethno-homeland. A conscious national identity based on ancestry and kinship, which is the historic norm, is what Zionists, Palestinian state-seekers and 'happen to be White' Nationalists (of many nations and ethnies) aim for.

I resisted White Nationalism because there are racists among them, but in the end it was anti-racism and equality which allowed me to become WN. Ethnic / national groups which happen not to be Jewish, happen not to be Palestinian, happen to be White, should have the same rights to ethno-homelands which many in the world enjoy, and many others are fighting for.
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#99
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#99
You're right, it is quite a 'unique case' in the world. Never before have a whole 'people' appeared out of nowhere and demanded to return to an area they never controlled and be part of a 'nationality' that never existed.
The Palestinians had lived in Palestine for hundreds of years. The Jews of Israel hadn't been living there for 2000 years so talking about a 'people' (black jews arab jews russian jews sephardi jews)appearing all of a sudden is a bit rich.

Whoopsies! Drop the lies, the 'palestinians' are barely 40 years old as a 'people', they never formed a nation, they never had a homeland.
The Mandate of Palestine has existed for longer than 40 years hinny. And the land there is a homeland to those who inhabited it no matter what it is called.

They were offered a country in 1948
So long as half the population moved aside for invaders to live there.

If it's their displacement, ethnic displacement is your enemy whoever is on the receiving end,
Who is being displaced? That suggests that non whites will take over whites numerically. And do you honestly believe that in less than 4 and a half years London will be a majority non white city?
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ArthurOliver
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#100
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#100
Who is being displaced? That suggests that non whites will take over whites numerically. And do you honestly believe that in less than 4 and a half years London will be a majority non white city?
1) The old nations of Europe. Definitions of nation:

A cultural concept for a group of people bound together by a strong sense of shared values and cultural characteristics including language, religion and common history.

A synonym for "ethnic group," designating a single culture sharing a language, religion, history, territory, ancestry, and kinship.

The old nations in which the political states had unspoken understanding of these definitions of nation, are being replaced by new nations with no shared history, kinship, culture or language. Interesting experiment I suppose but if it doesn't work...civil wars, race wars, religious wars. Police states will be necessary I think.

2) Yes--Inner London looks like New Orleans before Katrina.

Am I a member yet?
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