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    (Original post by Ki_Kudos)
    I'd say giving the European Parliament more power to scrutinise the Comission and Council is actually quite a significant step in making the EU more democratic. I agree with you though, it does need more of an overhaul rather than only amendments.

    Aspects of collective security already operate in NATO for example so I don't think its too great a leap to imagine it happening for the EU. There is already things like the Common Security and Defence Policy which commit battlegroups and peacekeepers overseas from different militaries.

    Tbh, my last paragraph was nothing but a pipe-dream. I know nothing like that would be currently possible. The competitive economic system wouldn't allow for something like that. Almost every nation just now, if not all, would oppose such an idea - all countries are out to protect their own interests rather than promoting the common good.
    Yeah it is a good idea, but it didn't put them at the forefront of decision making like it should have; it just put them on a more equal footing with the Commission. To me, it just seems like the intentions for overhauling the system aren't there - they seem content with knocking out a few treaties every so often to tidy things up a bit instead and it is frustrating. Especially with the huge push for integration.

    Aha, I see. Yeah the world is way too selfish to agree, but I can see your argument.
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    Yes as countries like Norway, Switzerland aren't in the EU yet benefits from the Free Trade Agreement between European partners.

    We get back less money in FDI then we do investing in the EU.

    So it's not worth staying in the EU anylonger, not to mention we have to bail out Portugal/Greece/Ireland to stabalise the Euro. Although it might be a good idea to stabalise the Euro (for export purposes as EU is the UK's largest trading partner).
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    (Original post by LMAC)
    Definitely. There is absolutely no benefit of the UK being in the EU. The Euro has evidently failed, Britain is forced to comply with 75% of laws that the EU makes, there's unlimited immigration despite the fact there's no jobs. This country fought 2 wars in order to preserve it's independence and it's being removed by the EU.
    Pardon??

    First of all there are PLENTY of benefits to EU membership which include -

    1. freedom to move
    2. the minimum wage
    3. legal protection from low pay and unfair treatment at work
    4. the single market - allowing trade without endless bureacratic measures
    5. mutual recognition - a product made and sold legally here can be sold anywhere else in the EU.
    6. the citizens initiative - allows citizens to initiate legislation
    7. direct effect - a citizen can bring an employer to court, if they suffer because the state has not implemented an EU directive which protects them

    Saying there "is absolutely no benefit" is ludicrous.

    And concerning your immigration argument, a majority of our immigrants actually come from outside the EU, not from within it.

    Your war argument is also flawed. We fought in the war partially to prevent invasion, sure. But we joined the EU because that very war robbed us of money and resources to a very large extent. The country (along with virtually every other European country) suffered great financial loss. The EU (or the then EEC) offered economic and financial stability and free trade, by effectively forcing its members to be somewhat dependent on each other. Consequently, that minimalises any chance of further European conflict.

    And lastly, by the end of WWII, Britain was losing its Empire. It was no longer a figure on the world stage. The EU gave Britain that opportunity back.
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    (Original post by crazycake93)
    Yes as countries like Norway, Switzerland aren't in the EU yet benefits from the Free Trade Agreement between European partners.

    We get back less money in FDI then we do investing in the EU.

    So it's not worth staying in the EU anylonger, not to mention we have to bail out Portugal/Greece/Ireland to stabalise the Euro. Although it might be a good idea to stabalise the Euro (for export purposes as EU is the UK's largest trading partner).
    Switzerland was not left bankrupt, nor did it suffer terrible problems concerning its infrastructure after WWII (as it did not join). The UK did. The war was the main reason for the creation of the EU in the first place. Switzerland never had the need.

    And Norway is already a very wealthy country with a tiny population (4 million) and it does not require the economic benefits of the EU as it is already a master in oil production and has hold of the Northern Sea oil reserves.
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    (Original post by ultimate mashup)
    There really isn't much point to Britain being in the EU. We don't even use the euro or remove the border controls! We dont even have any major European buildings like Germany as the central bank and belgium has the parliament and france also has many EU department headquarters. It makes sense for the rest of europe to be in the EU because they benefit from the euro and open borders so it all just seems like one big country. Britain is an island and therefore seperate from Europe!
    The UK hosts three EU agencies: the European Medicines Agency, the European Police College and the European Banking Authority. Also what you're saying doesn't really make sense. I fail to see how being an island stops Britain from being a part of Europe, you can get to Paris or Brussels in around two hours by train and the Strait of Dover is the busiest international seaway in the world. Oh, how insular :rolleyes: .
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    (Original post by Antonia87)
    Switzerland was not left bankrupt, nor did it suffer terrible problems concerning its infrastructure after WWII (as it did not join). The UK did. The war was the main reason for the creation of the EU in the first place. Switzerland never had the need.

    And Norway is already a very wealthy country with a tiny population (4 million) and it does not require the economic benefits of the EU as it is already a master in oil production and has hold of the Northern Sea oil reserves.
    Yeah, it's 4.9 million (5 million next year). But yes... It's just not the economy, it's in the culture as well. As Norway only became independent from Sweden in 1905 etc.
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    I have to point out that Norway and Switzerland are practically part of the EU in most fundamental senses. Norway is a member of the EEA, so it has had to adopt much EU legislation, while Swiss bilateral accords have meant that it is now basically part of the EU without any influence over what decisions are taken in Brussels which directly affect these nations.

    Indeed, the EU debate is being reopened in Switzerland because joining it would at least mean some influence over EU legislation (commission, parliament, committees etc). Moreover, the EU has said that it would no longer negotiate a third round of bilateral agreements with Switzerland.

    Both Norway and Switzerland are miniscule in comparison to the EU (world's biggest economy and their main trading partner) and in some way or another they HAVE to adapt their own laws every time the EU/EU leaders pass legislation affecting their economies.

    Although Britain is larger than either of these two, it will also have to adapt its own laws/adopt EU ones if it desires to trade with the bloc. The argument "we can save £X if we leave the EU" is false because Britain will no longer be part of the free trade zone, its benefits, and will no longer be able to influence EU legislation or laws which will affect it directly. Every deal will have to be negotiated, tarrifs have to be contended with, native laws adapted etc.
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    (Original post by Antonia87)
    Pardon??

    First of all there are PLENTY of benefits to EU membership which include -

    1. freedom to move
    You've essentially reworded 'no border control'. Eastern Europeans are coming in and taking the jobs that plenty people in this country would do. It's hardly 'freedom' when the people don't want it.
    2. the minimum wage
    What makes you think that this country is unable to make these decisions?
    3. legal protection from low pay and unfair treatment at work
    See above
    4. the single market - allowing trade without endless bureacratic measures
    The single market restricts us as we can't trade with other certain nations. It would be no different if we were to leave and establish a trade agreement in the same way that Norway and Switzerland have.
    5. mutual recognition - a product made and sold legally here can be sold anywhere else in the EU.
    This could be easily done without membership in the EU. You don't need an undemocratic, unwanted body to be paid billions in order for mutual recognition.
    6. the citizens initiative - allows citizens to initiate legislation
    Hardly relevant when the majority don't even want to be part of the EU anyway..
    7. direct effect - a citizen can bring an employer to court, if they suffer because the state has not implemented an EU directive which protects them
    The State is forced to implement EU Directives, it's very worrying that you do not see that as an issue. No-one wants these directives, if they are necessary, the Government that we elect can make these laws.

    Saying there "is absolutely no benefit" is ludicrous.

    And concerning your immigration argument, a majority of our immigrants actually come from outside the EU, not from within it.

    Your war argument is also flawed. We fought in the war partially to prevent invasion, sure. But we joined the EU because that very war robbed us of money and resources to a very large extent. The country (along with virtually every other European country) suffered great financial loss. The EU (or the then EEC) offered economic and financial stability and free trade, by effectively forcing its members to be somewhat dependent on each other. Consequently, that minimalises any chance of further European conflict.

    And lastly, by the end of WWII, Britain was losing its Empire. It was no longer a figure on the world stage. The EU gave Britain that opportunity back.
    We don't need the EU, we need to get out of it and establish a free trade agreement with other countries in the same way that Switzerland and Norway do (they're hardly struggling economically, are they?) What is ludicrous is that you've criticised the 'endless bureaucratic measures' that democracy brings. Are you not aware of the 800,000 dead fish that are dumped back into the sea each year because of the EU Common Fisheries Policy? If people want to be governed by the bureaucrats, that's fine, but they're not being given the choice.
    I've put my answers in bold. Democracy is not ludicrous.
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    (Original post by LMAC)
    We don't need the EU, we need to get out of it and establish a free trade agreement with other countries in the same way that Switzerland and Norway do (they're hardly struggling economically, are they?) What is ludicrous is that you've criticised the 'endless bureaucratic measures' that democracy brings. Are you not aware of the 800,000 dead fish that are dumped back into the sea each year because of the EU Common Fisheries Policy? If people want to be governed by the bureaucrats, that's fine, but they're not being given the choice.
    I've put my answers in bold. Democracy is not ludicrous.
    In response to your quotes in bold -

    1. We do have border control. We are not part of the Schengen area, unlike other member states, so we are not completely borderless. And as I said before, a minority of those who come into this country are from Eastern Europe/Europe. The bulk of our immigration comes from outside the EU.

    2. You say that our country could have come up with the minimum wage by itself. Well, it didnt. And when it first came into force, the Thatcher government refused to sign it. William Hague said famously that he would rather resign than adopt the minimum wage/social chapter. So our country was not interested in it at all, at the time.

    3. The single market does not restrict us. It allows us to trade with 26 other European countries :rolleyes:

    4. You say, again, that our country could have instilled mutual recognition. Again, it didnt. So that isnt an argument.

    5. The majority dont want to be part of the EU? Totally wrong. Its narrow, but less than half want to leave the EU.

    6. People dont want these directives? Says who?

    And by the way, the reason Norway isnt suffering economically is because it plays a massive role in oil production and has hold of the Northern Sea oil reserves and has less than 5 million people to look after.
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    (Original post by Kara09)
    Why do Brits complain about the EU so much? I'm from Luxembourg and we've never had any issues with being part of the bloc, I mean the borders are open I can go and live in France, Germany, Spain without restrictions or having to go through border control. Why on earth would we want to separate or exclude ourselves from Europe. Switzerland and Norway implement almost the same regulations but they are unique countries. The UK is not Switzerland and it will never be, you'll only lose if you leave the EU which I think will never happen anyway.
    Opting out of the EU does not xclude us from Europe. I am sick of the EU, I am sick of my tax being used to prop up the economices of Eastern Europe, i am sick of the insane laws passed ffrom the European Court of Human Rights. And I am sick of the frankly unwanted immigration and eastern European organised crime thanks to the EU.

    Luxmebourg is an insignificant country the has contributed ef all to the world, so I don't expect you to understand
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    (Original post by Atheist Britain)
    Opting out of the EU does not xclude us from Europe. I am sick of the EU, I am sick of my tax being used to prop up the economices of Eastern Europe, i am sick of the insane laws passed ffrom the European Court of Human Rights. And I am sick of the frankly unwanted immigration and eastern European organised crime thanks to the EU.

    Luxmebourg is an insignificant country the has contributed ef all to the world, so I don't expect you to understand
    The European Court of Rights has absolutely nothing to do with the EU, its an entirely separate organisation.

    And the majority of our immigrants actually come from Asia, not Europe.
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    (Original post by Antonia87)
    The European Court of Rights has absolutely nothing to do with the EU, its an entirely separate organisation.

    And the majority of our immigrants actually come from Asia, not Europe.
    Oh really well more than one million poles came to Britain alone after polish accession, and over half have stayed
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    (Original post by Antonia87)
    Switzerland was not left bankrupt, nor did it suffer terrible problems concerning its infrastructure after WWII (as it did not join). The UK did. The war was the main reason for the creation of the EU in the first place. Switzerland never had the need.

    And Norway is already a very wealthy country with a tiny population (4 million) and it does not require the economic benefits of the EU as it is already a master in oil production and has hold of the Northern Sea oil reserves.
    What about Bosnia, Croatia, Albania. Surely these poor countries would want to have joined the EU after being crippled by WW2.

    Also didn't the UK join the EU in 1973? I'm fairly sure that was 28 years after the end of world war 2......
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    (Original post by Retrodiction)
    E.U. =/= Europe
    Funny enough I was having the same chat with Vince Cable last week. That is after a few other more pressing issues!
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    (Original post by crazycake93)
    What about Bosnia, Croatia, Albania. Surely these poor countries would want to have joined the EU after being crippled by WW2.

    Also didn't the UK join the EU in 1973? I'm fairly sure that was 28 years after the end of world war 2......
    The reason why those countries (or Yugoslavia) didnt join was because after the war they fell under communist regimes. To be part of the EU, you had to have a democratic system. Yugoslavia did not and communists greatly opposed capitalist measures taken by the EU and so had no interest in joining. Now, however, they are not under communist rule and are part of the EU.

    And yes, we joined in 1973, but we had previously applied 3 times, only to be rejected. And the EU was first introduced in 1951 by the Treaty of Paris.
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    (Original post by domino0806)
    The UK hosts three EU agencies: the European Medicines Agency, the European Police College and the European Banking Authority. Also what you're saying doesn't really make sense. I fail to see how being an island stops Britain from being a part of Europe, you can get to Paris or Brussels in around two hours by train and the Strait of Dover is the busiest international seaway in the world. Oh, how insular :rolleyes: .
    The reason I pointed this out was because I remember a BBC report stating that William Hague (foreign secratary) was attempting to lobby Europe to bring more European departments to the UK because he didn't think the UK had its fair share of European departments compared to Europe's other two main powers, France and Germany. I wasn't aware of the departments that you mention but I suppose this means we do at least get a limited share in European beauracracy!

    On my other point, I think on the whole British people do tend to feel seperate and insular from Europe in contrast to our european neighbours. Most surveys tend to suggest that British people do not want to be part Europe (and certainly not the euro) any longer and do not see themselves as European in the same way as the French, Germans, Spanish etc. Remember when UKIP came second in the European elections a few years ago?

    Furthermore, I think the idea of the EU sounded good in theory, but in practice it is a failure. Recent events show how Eurozone members with small economies have almost gone bust and had to rely on Germany et al to bail them out. Even Britain which is not part of the euro has had to play its part. To conclude, Britain puts more into the EU than it get out of it. This reason alone should be sufficent to justify leaving the EU.
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    (Original post by Atheist Britain)
    Oh really well more than one million poles came to Britain alone after polish accession, and over half have stayed
    Yes, these people are hard working and contribute to your economy, simply because Britain is riddled with lazy a** spongers that can't be bothered to lift their fingers. Why do you care if it's Poles or Brits taking jobs? Most of them don't work in offices anyway but take jobs that the Brits won't do themselves. You're obviously a xenophobic and closed minded retard. Also, think twice before you call my country insignificant you'll be surprised how undeveloped the UK is compared to Luxembourg. Good day.
 
 
 
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