Is The MBA Useless Or More Than Useless?
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I said BIG fashion houses...Prada, Gucci, LVMH etc. Surely you know something about the industry you work in?! You're the one who started ranting on about IB, just like you are ranting on about MBAs. That sure is some huge chip you're carrying on your shoulder. Like TBD said, it's pointless even trying to debate with you. Whatever degree you claim to have done certainly didn't teach you anything about critical thinking or how to argue properly. Maybe that's not necessary when your life revolves around trying to make people look pretty.
Original post by arra
Buddy, go to top MBA school websites and check out their alum. Until you can look at me in the eye and tell me that those guys are idiots, shut the **** up.
In addition to the earlier response to this (see above), read this.
"Working professionals can spend 40 hours or more a week at their job, come home and do homework, then go to school seven hours straight each Saturday so they can earn a Masters in Business Administration (M.B.A.) from SF State. But if they're trying to get the degree to become a wealthy tycoon, looking at the Forbes 400 list might discourage them.
In the magazine's list of the 400 richest people in the world, the 21 richest don't have an M.B.A., and only four out of the top 50 even have the degree. Michael Dell (founder of Dell), Steve Jobs (co-founder of Apple), Larry Ellison (founder of Oracle, the second largest independent software company in the country), and Bill Gates (Microsoft founder and the richest man in America) were all college dropouts."
Original post by Ory
Different era, didn't pay for it. Most people enrolling today have zero experience in the workplace, zero undergrad applied knowledge with their business degrees (exception being the accountants), and pay for the privilege of earning an MBA, sometimes even from horrendous schools (eg to many employers, the LSE doesnt cut it in the US or Asia/Pacific who want locally focused degrees).
That said, for your dad it may have been perfect. He is an employee. nuff said. He goes from being a junior slave to a senior slave. Most people who have their own businesses would laugh at most MBAs and their degree. Gates, Zuckerberg, Jobs, Iaccoca, etc never wasted their time getting one, even when it was last considered valuable - more than 20 or 30 years ago.
Even the mainstream media recognized the futility of the MBA.
That said, for your dad it may have been perfect. He is an employee. nuff said. He goes from being a junior slave to a senior slave. Most people who have their own businesses would laugh at most MBAs and their degree. Gates, Zuckerberg, Jobs, Iaccoca, etc never wasted their time getting one, even when it was last considered valuable - more than 20 or 30 years ago.
Even the mainstream media recognized the futility of the MBA.
You're a muppet, go to bed ''Zuckerberg''.
(edited 12 years ago)
No one disputes that an MBA from a highly prestigious school such as Harvard, Wharton, Chicago, or Stanford can lead to high pay, partly because of the great contacts students make there. Still, Pfeffer cites study after study strongly suggesting that this is because those schools are so hard to get into (and so costly once you get there), only the best and brightest fast-trackers have a shot. In other words, they are people who most likely would have succeeded whether they went to B-school or not. Overall, the evidence suggests that for most managers a couple of years of extra work experience, not more time spent in classrooms, will pay off better than a graduate business degree.
And what, you may wonder, did Pfeffer's colleagues at Stanford think of his paper? "My dean was not too happy," Pfeffer says, "but he got over it." Ah, the beauty of tenure.
And what, you may wonder, did Pfeffer's colleagues at Stanford think of his paper? "My dean was not too happy," Pfeffer says, "but he got over it." Ah, the beauty of tenure.
And that was in 2004. Today, almost anyone can literally get an MBA.
But keep your convincing tirades coming, it shows just how much this degree has fallen. from 1961 when it may have been marginally useful in teaching students the golden rule (a one line management course).
Dude, that outlines the point we've been trying to make this whole bloody time, it's a signal. You clearly don't seem to understand what that is. I'll explain. If I show you a diploma from Harvard, you will automatically know that I'm worth my **** because I got in, in the first place.
Alright bro, because getting into Harvard, Wharton, Chicago, Stanford, etc. is such an easy task.
Today, almost anyone can literally get an MBA.
Haha nice one dude. A signal to whom? A signal to the B school customers. Come here - you will be successful. The point of the article from 2004 is that they are successful in spite of the MBA they get - at any school. And that they would be even more successful were they to spend the time (and money) in business rather than at B school - at any B school.
It is not a signal to employers - employers know the reality - and would be more likely to hire a graduate on prep school and experience than on B school - why? Because they want people with 1. A certain standard of manners and 2. A certain level of competence and 3. The rest is learned on the job - so that their clients get what they need.
It is not a signal to clients - clients know the reality - and would be more likely to hire a firm on actual competence and past relationships than on what B school their employees went to. Because they want a firm that can actually do what it promised to do.
It is a signal - for the B school customer. A customer who is then thinking of using it to become a slave. It is not a signal for a student or grad who wants to 1. work immediately without more study 2. develop their own business 3. compete with the firms hiring these B school hopefuls. It's a different mentality a la Gates, Jobs, Zuckerberg, Iacocca, Drexler etc who concentrated on coampetence and product - not pedigree - and would laugh at most MBAs as a bad joke.
Read what Drexler said recently.
What does this signal mean? A false choice for grads. I need an MBA they say, but what flavor? Well, if they are competent and able, they dont need one. The whole debate about which B school is better is a complete false choice.
Let me ask you this: You have a nephew who can do something today now and make serious money. You have 150K to give him. Do you tell him A. to spend it on an MBA or B. set up and operate his business (mobile phones, dentistry, mechanic. selling apples, being an escort, coffee shop - whatever).
B schools all want you to choose A over B, and the nephew to choose A over B.
Why is that? For the good of humanity?
We all know who's selling what to whom, so quit the nonsense.
It is not a signal to employers - employers know the reality - and would be more likely to hire a graduate on prep school and experience than on B school - why? Because they want people with 1. A certain standard of manners and 2. A certain level of competence and 3. The rest is learned on the job - so that their clients get what they need.
It is not a signal to clients - clients know the reality - and would be more likely to hire a firm on actual competence and past relationships than on what B school their employees went to. Because they want a firm that can actually do what it promised to do.
It is a signal - for the B school customer. A customer who is then thinking of using it to become a slave. It is not a signal for a student or grad who wants to 1. work immediately without more study 2. develop their own business 3. compete with the firms hiring these B school hopefuls. It's a different mentality a la Gates, Jobs, Zuckerberg, Iacocca, Drexler etc who concentrated on coampetence and product - not pedigree - and would laugh at most MBAs as a bad joke.
Read what Drexler said recently.
What does this signal mean? A false choice for grads. I need an MBA they say, but what flavor? Well, if they are competent and able, they dont need one. The whole debate about which B school is better is a complete false choice.
Let me ask you this: You have a nephew who can do something today now and make serious money. You have 150K to give him. Do you tell him A. to spend it on an MBA or B. set up and operate his business (mobile phones, dentistry, mechanic. selling apples, being an escort, coffee shop - whatever).
B schools all want you to choose A over B, and the nephew to choose A over B.
Why is that? For the good of humanity?
We all know who's selling what to whom, so quit the nonsense.
This argument is hopeless. If an MBA was so useless a signal I am very curious as to why top MBA alums have a median salary of approximately 200k, and that's not even scratching the surface of how much some top consultants make.
Not everyone has the innovative brilliance of Jobs, Gates, or Zuckerburg. And for your "run-of-the-mill" smart guy, an MBA isn't a bad choice. It might not be the best choice, but it does have its benefits. Also, just because you don't think MBAs are useful, don't project your view onto top firms. McKinsey and Goldman Sachs both require most of their analysts to go get an MBA for a top school or quit after several years of working. The only exceptions to this rule, generally, are the top analysts who don't need to "emit" that "signal" to clients to look successful.
Not everyone has the innovative brilliance of Jobs, Gates, or Zuckerburg. And for your "run-of-the-mill" smart guy, an MBA isn't a bad choice. It might not be the best choice, but it does have its benefits. Also, just because you don't think MBAs are useful, don't project your view onto top firms. McKinsey and Goldman Sachs both require most of their analysts to go get an MBA for a top school or quit after several years of working. The only exceptions to this rule, generally, are the top analysts who don't need to "emit" that "signal" to clients to look successful.
Original post by arra
f I show you a diploma from Harvard, you will automatically know that I'm worth my **** because I got in, in the first place.
No, Ill probably laugh my ass off. So would any competent person in business.
No one cares about pedigree. When people get sued for breaking promises, failing to deliver the products or services they promised to, or otherwise ****ing up, do you really think their defense is "Well I did go to HBS!". They pay the same for insurance as someone who graduated from LSE, University of XYZ or another bum**** institution.
If you spent money getting an MBA from Harvard, I would probably run a mile for another reason. It's not even the institution - its the fact that you would be so stupid to buy a diploma from one of these places (not difficult to get an MBA - getting any professional degree is much tougher - law, medicine, engineering, dentistry, even science and economics, math too) - and then stupid enough to pay the highest possible price for it, and then stupid enough to rely upon it as some kind of crutch.
As I said, when things go bad, clients dont care about the school, their attorneys don't, the judges sure don't, your insurers don't - what they care about is why you didn't deliver the products or services you promised to. When things don't go bad, and clients are judging whether to buy your services or products over another - they care about the quality of what is being offered - irrespective of the school. Jobs didn't go to no B school - and people like his products.
Original post by arra
This argument is hopeless. If an MBA was so useless a signal I am very curious as to why top MBA alums have a median salary of approximately 200k, and that's not even scratching the surface of how much some top consultants make.
Show us all the source of this wonderful statistic.
Or shut the hell up.
And then tell us what the non-top MBA alums get.
And then tell us what they paid for it.
And then tell us how many of them are employees (slaves) vs business owners.
And then tell us how many MBAs, top or non-top, would have earned exactly the same or more had they not gotten their MBAs.
And then peddle your IF YOU GET AN MBA FROM A TOP SCHOOL YOU WILL BE AN INSTANT SUCCESS BECAUSE OF THAT MBA AND NO OTHER FACTOR nonsense elsewhere.
Thank you.
Original post by Ory
Haha nice one dude. A signal to whom? A signal to the B school customers. Come here - you will be successful. The point of the article from 2004 is that they are successful in spite of the MBA they get - at any school. And that they would be even more successful were they to spend the time (and money) in business rather than at B school - at any B school.
It is not a signal to employers - employers know the reality - and would be more likely to hire a graduate on prep school and experience than on B school - why? Because they want people with 1. A certain standard of manners and 2. A certain level of competence and 3. The rest is learned on the job - so that their clients get what they need.
It is not a signal to clients - clients know the reality - and would be more likely to hire a firm on actual competence and past relationships than on what B school their employees went to. Because they want a firm that can actually do what it promised to do.
It is a signal - for the B school customer. A customer who is then thinking of using it to become a slave. It is not a signal for a student or grad who wants to 1. work immediately without more study 2. develop their own business 3. compete with the firms hiring these B school hopefuls. It's a different mentality a la Gates, Jobs, Zuckerberg, Iacocca, Drexler etc who concentrated on coampetence and product - not pedigree - and would laugh at most MBAs as a bad joke.
Read what Drexler said recently.
What does this signal mean? A false choice for grads. I need an MBA they say, but what flavor? Well, if they are competent and able, they dont need one. The whole debate about which B school is better is a complete false choice.
Let me ask you this: You have a nephew who can do something today now and make serious money. You have 150K to give him. Do you tell him A. to spend it on an MBA or B. set up and operate his business (mobile phones, dentistry, mechanic. selling apples, being an escort, coffee shop - whatever).
B schools all want you to choose A over B, and the nephew to choose A over B.
Why is that? For the good of humanity?
We all know who's selling what to whom, so quit the nonsense.
It is not a signal to employers - employers know the reality - and would be more likely to hire a graduate on prep school and experience than on B school - why? Because they want people with 1. A certain standard of manners and 2. A certain level of competence and 3. The rest is learned on the job - so that their clients get what they need.
It is not a signal to clients - clients know the reality - and would be more likely to hire a firm on actual competence and past relationships than on what B school their employees went to. Because they want a firm that can actually do what it promised to do.
It is a signal - for the B school customer. A customer who is then thinking of using it to become a slave. It is not a signal for a student or grad who wants to 1. work immediately without more study 2. develop their own business 3. compete with the firms hiring these B school hopefuls. It's a different mentality a la Gates, Jobs, Zuckerberg, Iacocca, Drexler etc who concentrated on coampetence and product - not pedigree - and would laugh at most MBAs as a bad joke.
Read what Drexler said recently.
What does this signal mean? A false choice for grads. I need an MBA they say, but what flavor? Well, if they are competent and able, they dont need one. The whole debate about which B school is better is a complete false choice.
Let me ask you this: You have a nephew who can do something today now and make serious money. You have 150K to give him. Do you tell him A. to spend it on an MBA or B. set up and operate his business (mobile phones, dentistry, mechanic. selling apples, being an escort, coffee shop - whatever).
B schools all want you to choose A over B, and the nephew to choose A over B.
Why is that? For the good of humanity?
We all know who's selling what to whom, so quit the nonsense.
And then kindly address this, piece by piece. Not with a "THIS IS NONSENSE LOLZ I AM RIGHT BECAUSE MBA IS THE BEST!"
Original post by arra
McKinsey and Goldman Sachs both require most of their analysts to go get an MBA for a top school or quit after several years of working. The only exceptions to this rule, generally, are the top analysts who don't need to "emit" that "signal" to clients to look successful.
Wow, such luminaries. Like Bear Stearns and Lehman Bros had the same policy.
It means nothing, learn some basic logic.
And pray tell us, what do these firms require their owners to do? Get an MBA too?
Maybe they require them to quit working - wait a second - they dont have to work. MBA is for slaves who know no better. Plenty of doctors, dentists, lawyers, vets, pilots, astronauts, traders, analysts, bankers make money without MBAs, and wouldnt even consider getting one. It wouldnt add anything to their level of competence - but would probably detract from it (wasting time. money on MBA) and add to their level of embarrassment with their clients or peers (OOH LOOK EVERYONE, I HAVE AN MBA SEE HERE ON MY WALL!!!)
MBA is a product - you are the customer - and the advertisement to keep the "MBA = PRESTIGE" cycle going.
Nice try though.
If you knew how to read you would realize that I said MBA is not the best for a lot of people. At this point it has become quite clear to me that you're not interested in any evidence but that which supports your at best misguided claim. All I can ask you to do is go to Wikipedia and check the alum list of top programs and then check the annual reported salary on Financial Times for the top five programs (median).
I'm done with this thread because it seems I'm going nowhere despite giving you plenty of evidence counter to your claim that MBA is in no way beneficial.
I'm done with this thread because it seems I'm going nowhere despite giving you plenty of evidence counter to your claim that MBA is in no way beneficial.
Original post by arra
If you knew how to read you would realize that I said MBA is not the best for a lot of people. At this point it has become quite clear to me that you're not interested in any evidence but that which supports your at best misguided claim. All I can ask you to do is go to Wikipedia and check the alum list of top programs and then check the annual reported salary on Financial Times for the top five programs (median).
I'm done with this thread because it seems I'm going nowhere despite giving you plenty of evidence counter to your claim that MBA is in no way beneficial.
I'm done with this thread because it seems I'm going nowhere despite giving you plenty of evidence counter to your claim that MBA is in no way beneficial.
You failed to provide the stats, you failed to answer the question in the nephew example I gave, and you failed to convince anyone that an MBA is anything but a product with limited value, which it is. I am sure the MBA has a lot of value in making grandmothers'' proud, and making people feel like they have a better chance at a job than they otherwise would have, rather than imparting any kind of sincere core competency required in the modern world.
Good bye.
Original post by arra
All I can ask you to do is go to Wikipedia and check the alum list of top programs and then check the annual reported salary on Financial Times for the top five programs (median).
Yeah. And the average college grad earns a million dollars more over their lifetime, and I never had sex with that woman, and it cleans away all the stains.
Nice one. You've reduced B School marketing to the level of a stain remover commercial.
Which ironically is where it probably belongs, being the cerebral and practical equivalent of a degree in wine tasting.
I'm now pursuing an MBA program, it is the 3rd one I'm pursuing.
1st one had to give it up as it was too taxing as I had to travel a lot for my work. Was it useful? I still keep in touch with the professors and classmates from that era....every now and then they will pass me some new business leads that could lead to something. Quite an expensive program though
I paid most of it on my own but nevertheless the friends made from there have been worth every penny spent.
2nd one, this was at Nottingham University. Left the program as I didn't like the program's CSR focus on almost everything and a bad type of CSR at that.... mostly bunch of socialist crap. Did I gain anything from it? Plenty!! Did I do it for career advancement? No. Mostly did it because I wanted a Masters level qualification of some kind. Weirdly while there a HR manager of a competitor company offered me a job that I never even asked for, she even offered a very good package at that. While on the program I found 2 people to work for me...a plus there because I knew exactly what I was getting. I was also offered a job from the careers office with one of the largest employers in that city and weirdly I even had a job offer from a government department I despise a lot because someone who worked there saw the potential in me and thought I would make a good candidate.... granted I wasn't in the market to do a job change. Did it teach me anything new academically? Hmmmmm if I didn't have my 1st degree which is in Finance and Marketing then it would be something rather new to me, very few things in the MBA was ever covered in the sylabus of my 2nd degree which is in Law. But I did learn quite a few new stuff nevertheless and it was a refresher. Oh by the way it cost me nothing to attend all the modules, completely paid for by company.
Now I'm on my 3rd MBA program, HQ of the company offered me a position to be based in Zurich and I found it to be an offer I couldn't refuse. The HR manager asked me to apply for a place at this MBA program. 3 day a month. Difficulty? It is a lot harder than the Nottingham program, participants in the program are a lot more senior, at 33 I'm the 2nd youngest in the program. I started this in August, together with 2 others from the same company. Why am I doing this? Lots of reasons first off I work for a Swiss company now in their Swiss office and as a non-Swiss it is difficult to progress or climb up the corporate ladder unless you have Swiss qualifications. The HR manager of the company I'm with now said even though my work is top notch my prospect of doing anything beyond my current scope would be limited, so best to get one if I wanted to remain in Switzerland.... am planning to remain here for as long as Britain has the tax regime it does.
Benefits? I've had 4 different job offers by recommendation of participants to the program. 3 of them paying more than what I would make now with 1 of it with another rival company.
Being a new resident in Zurich can be rather lonesome as it's only me here, wife and kids remain in Britain..... the program has brought about new friends, networks and contacts... in fact every other day I meet up with 1 of the participants as we have breakfast together and then play tennis. Another participant thought I must be going through some spell of loneliness she introduced her single and available sister to me LOL... whoops. Another one gave me a St. Bernard puppy thinking that my new house needed a pet LOL.
Business opportunities, 3 of the participants have invited me to speak to their company in regard to being a potential business lead..... 2 of them secured now and neither of these 2 I would have been even able to pitch to them our services had it not been for these program participants. Thanks to these 2 I've already achieved my target for the year in regard to new businesses...... granted it doesn't mean I could stop working LOL.
Is the MBA academically useful? It's far more useful than the one from Nottingham.... learned quite a lot so far and most of it is thanks in part to the excellent faculty.
Is it worth the money? Well I have 2/3 of it paid for by the company I work for, the other 1/3 of it I can do a pre-tax deduction for it.... so it's worth every franc
1st one had to give it up as it was too taxing as I had to travel a lot for my work. Was it useful? I still keep in touch with the professors and classmates from that era....every now and then they will pass me some new business leads that could lead to something. Quite an expensive program though
I paid most of it on my own but nevertheless the friends made from there have been worth every penny spent. 2nd one, this was at Nottingham University. Left the program as I didn't like the program's CSR focus on almost everything and a bad type of CSR at that.... mostly bunch of socialist crap. Did I gain anything from it? Plenty!! Did I do it for career advancement? No. Mostly did it because I wanted a Masters level qualification of some kind. Weirdly while there a HR manager of a competitor company offered me a job that I never even asked for, she even offered a very good package at that. While on the program I found 2 people to work for me...a plus there because I knew exactly what I was getting. I was also offered a job from the careers office with one of the largest employers in that city and weirdly I even had a job offer from a government department I despise a lot because someone who worked there saw the potential in me and thought I would make a good candidate.... granted I wasn't in the market to do a job change. Did it teach me anything new academically? Hmmmmm if I didn't have my 1st degree which is in Finance and Marketing then it would be something rather new to me, very few things in the MBA was ever covered in the sylabus of my 2nd degree which is in Law. But I did learn quite a few new stuff nevertheless and it was a refresher. Oh by the way it cost me nothing to attend all the modules, completely paid for by company.
Now I'm on my 3rd MBA program, HQ of the company offered me a position to be based in Zurich and I found it to be an offer I couldn't refuse. The HR manager asked me to apply for a place at this MBA program. 3 day a month. Difficulty? It is a lot harder than the Nottingham program, participants in the program are a lot more senior, at 33 I'm the 2nd youngest in the program. I started this in August, together with 2 others from the same company. Why am I doing this? Lots of reasons first off I work for a Swiss company now in their Swiss office and as a non-Swiss it is difficult to progress or climb up the corporate ladder unless you have Swiss qualifications. The HR manager of the company I'm with now said even though my work is top notch my prospect of doing anything beyond my current scope would be limited, so best to get one if I wanted to remain in Switzerland.... am planning to remain here for as long as Britain has the tax regime it does.
Benefits? I've had 4 different job offers by recommendation of participants to the program. 3 of them paying more than what I would make now with 1 of it with another rival company.
Being a new resident in Zurich can be rather lonesome as it's only me here, wife and kids remain in Britain..... the program has brought about new friends, networks and contacts... in fact every other day I meet up with 1 of the participants as we have breakfast together and then play tennis. Another participant thought I must be going through some spell of loneliness she introduced her single and available sister to me LOL... whoops. Another one gave me a St. Bernard puppy thinking that my new house needed a pet LOL.
Business opportunities, 3 of the participants have invited me to speak to their company in regard to being a potential business lead..... 2 of them secured now and neither of these 2 I would have been even able to pitch to them our services had it not been for these program participants. Thanks to these 2 I've already achieved my target for the year in regard to new businesses...... granted it doesn't mean I could stop working LOL.
Is the MBA academically useful? It's far more useful than the one from Nottingham.... learned quite a lot so far and most of it is thanks in part to the excellent faculty.
Is it worth the money? Well I have 2/3 of it paid for by the company I work for, the other 1/3 of it I can do a pre-tax deduction for it.... so it's worth every franc
Original post by Erich Hartmann
I'm now pursuing an MBA program, it is the 3rd one I'm pursuing.
Great story. Thanks for the contribution. Keep pursuing!!!
Mostly did it because I wanted a Masters level qualification of some kind.
Then you have picked the wrong degree. An MBA is the masters degree you get when you are not getting a masters degree. But it still has it's place in your life, I get your point. Just like that Ikea furniture I bought - it has it's place too - and looks mighty dandy in my office. I even show it off to my clients.
Original post by Ory
Then you have picked the wrong degree. An MBA is the masters degree you get when you are not getting a masters degree. But it still has it's place in your life, I get your point. Just like that Ikea furniture I bought - it has it's place too - and looks mighty dandy in my office. I even show it off to my clients.
Unfortunately you're in no position to tell me I'm wrong.
First off I can't afford to take a year or two off work to pursue any fulltime MSc programs.
Secondly.... my company pays for it as it is one of their approved programs, the other Masters level courses that are approved are also MBAs only difference is it is either in French or 100% in German vs now where it is a mix of German and English. I reckon my HR manager and director who signs off the payment slip is in a far better position to judge whether it is useful or not.
Thirdly...... I don't really care if it brings me anywhere
Fact is essentially it is a tax write-down for me so even if it is worth nothing in the end it still has some good tax benefits. But thanks for the concerns though
Original post by arra
If you knew how to read you would realize that I said MBA is not the best for a lot of people. At this point it has become quite clear to me that you're not interested in any evidence but that which supports your at best misguided claim. All I can ask you to do is go to Wikipedia and check the alum list of top programs and then check the annual reported salary on Financial Times for the top five programs (median).
I'm done with this thread because it seems I'm going nowhere despite giving you plenty of evidence counter to your claim that MBA is in no way beneficial.
I'm done with this thread because it seems I'm going nowhere despite giving you plenty of evidence counter to your claim that MBA is in no way beneficial.
LOL... can't believe you even bothered considering the sources of some of his frivolous evidence he presented.
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Investment banking university
