Should the UK have a German/Swiss/Austrian style apprenticeship system?

Should the UK have a German/Swiss/Austrian style apprenticeship system? Apparently Austria has the least youth unemployment rate in Europe. Is the Realschule system from Germany whereby students are tracked into apprenticeships and a more vocational education from the age of 14/15 and the academic students going to a Gymnasium a better system? Or is this a reminder of the tripartite system (that still exists in Kent) whereby the most academically gifted at 11 go to grammar schools, with the other students going to more vocational secondary technical and secondary modern schools? With those who went Secondary Modern schools having a lesser/no chance of going to university pre 1970's and the introduction of the comprehensive school system?

Reply 1

username878045

17

These systems are great if you can implement them well and overcome a few common problems:
a) You need a decent method of determining who goes to which school, not a flawed one like the 11+.
b) You need to make it easy to transfer between streams so that one decision at age 14 doesn't completely determine your life.
c) You need to make sure that the public understands the point behind it. If every middle class parent pushes for their child to go to the academic schools, regardless of whether it's best for them, then the system doesn't work, and might just help to entrench social divides.

Of course, it might be that overcoming these problems is impossible :tongue:

Reply 2

JakeyKakey

5

Yes, however Germany has a much different culture. As I've said it a few times before, Britain is too hung up on class. There's plenty of apprenticeship opportunities as it is and most of them get passed up and overlooked specifically because they're too working class and plebeian. Just look at the current hate and snobbery towards ex-polys.

There should be little reason to go to university unless you're specifically willing to become more educated on a specific subject and carry it on into academics, while everything else should have a much more vocational approach, but it's become a middle class rite of passage where you get sent off for three years to practice and gain experience at being an adult with some training wheels still on and some education to go with it.

Reply 3

nulli tertius

21

Original post by hsv

Should the UK have a German/Swiss/Austrian style apprenticeship system? Apparently Austria has the least youth unemployment rate in Europe. Is the Realschule system from Germany whereby students are tracked into apprenticeships and a more vocational education from the age of 14/15 and the academic students going to a Gymnasium a better system? Or is this a reminder of the tripartite system (that still exists in Kent) whereby the most academically gifted at 11 go to grammar schools, with the other students going to more vocational secondary technical and secondary modern schools? With those who went Secondary Modern schools having a lesser/no chance of going to university pre 1970's and the introduction of the comprehensive school system?

Are there any surviving ones of these in Kent or anywhere else? I have never seen a list of the ones that existed though I think there was a disproportionate number in Wales.

Reply 4

hsv

OP

16

Original post by nulli tertius

Are there any surviving ones of these in Kent or anywhere else? I have never seen a list of the ones that existed though I think there was a disproportionate number in Wales.

yeah alot in kent see map and list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_England

Reply 5

Habsburg

10

Yes, and I also agree with streaming being at the age of 13-15, like the Teutonic system (or our own independent school system) unlike the old Tripartite system. 11 is too young.

The other thing that needs to be addressed is the view we have on vocational careers in this country. It is seen as something almost rightful and essential to study at university, whereas in Germany a lot more take the non-academic vocational route.

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 6

nulli tertius

21

Original post by hsv

yeah alot in kent see map and list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_England

I am sorry. That is a list of grammar schools. There is no mystery about where they are. The question was whether there were any of the old technical secondary schools left in Kent (or elsewhere)?

Reply 7

llys

17

Original post by JakeyKakey

Yes, however Germany has a much different culture. As I've said it a few times before, Britain is too hung up on class.

It would be best, but it will never work in Britain for this reason alone.

In Germany, I think 70% of school leavers do an apprenticeship. Of those, I think about 25% come from grammar schools (possibly more - anecdotally, in my year it was more).

(edited 10 years ago)

Reply 8

hsv

OP

16

Original post by nulli tertius

I am sorry. That is a list of grammar schools. There is no mystery about where they are. The question was whether there were any of the old technical secondary schools left in Kent (or elsewhere)?

It's Ok I think there was a misunderstanding of what you were trying to ask. I know there are secondary modern schools in Kent for sure other areas I am not sure but as the tripartite system is still in existence in some other areas in the UK Secondary Technical and Secondary Modern schools would exist in those areas as well.

Reply 9

MatureStudent36

5

This one comes around every thirty years or so.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/britain-increasingly-regarding-germany-as-an-economic-role-model-a-898399.html

It was tried in the 70s and early 80s and failed dismally.

Germany and the UK have many things in common, but they also have many significant cultural differences. Germany as a nation tends to think longer term, in the UK we don't. For example, German Trade Unions will forgo pay rises in the short term to ensure long term employment. British Trade Union shave historically just been after short term pay rises. Although I'm pleased to say that in some respects our own trade unions are getting a little better at thinking longer term.

As has been pointed out. We seem to have a belief that higher education is a right, not a privilege and to a certain extent have turned out back on vocational training. For me personally, a qualified welder is worth 10 psychology students as the welder can actually make goods that can be sold.

Germany also puts a lot of onus on the individual and their family. Whilst you're doing an apprenticeship, it's up to your family to house you and feed you and make up the short fall. If you as an apprentice fail to complete your apprenticship. Society doesn't go around going 'Poor Hans, it's not really his fault, its societies fault he failed.' If you fail in Germany then the responsibility is yours and yours alone.

In Germnay as well, you need the qualifications to progress. No qualifications, no progression. Guys like Alan Sugar and Richard Branson wouldn't have been able to be successful in Germany as they didn't have the required paperwork.

There's a good documentary here. It starts to get going about Germanys success from about 4 minutes in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=su9_FEPnsL8

Others have already pointed out the cultural differences and how such a system in Britain would likely just be used to segregate the classes, but another problem for such a system in Britain is that it requires long term, strategic thought, something we don't do in Britain; we only think short term. Companies would have to invest heavily in the training and development of apprentices and it would take them years to actually get a return, a thought horrifying to many British businesses who want people now, already skilled and qualified (where the state has preferably picked up the bill for this).

There is no evidence to suggest that industry would actively support such a system. If there was then there'd already be plenty of apprenticeship opportunities, but there isn't.

Reply 11

MatureStudent36

5

Original post by Smack

Others have already pointed out the cultural differences and how such a system in Britain would likely just be used to segregate the classes, but another problem for such a system in Britain is that it requires long term, strategic thought, something we don't do in Britain; we only think short term. Companies would have to invest heavily in the training and development of apprentices and it would take them years to actually get a return, a thought horrifying to many British businesses who want people now, already skilled and qualified (where the state has preferably picked up the bill for this).

There is no evidence to suggest that industry would actively support such a system. If there was then there'd already be plenty of apprenticeship opportunities, but there isn't.

I think companies do do it and do see the benefits of doing it. But at the moment we're ina position where by you can train and invest in an apprentice only for them to get poached by another company. If you were able to say for example, I'll let you do an apprenticeship with me but you're legally bound to either work for me for a period of time before you leave or pay the investment back, they'd be uproar from the liberal left and cries of 'modern day slavery.'

The Germans have got to the stage that it's so widespread that there's no need to poach staff.

But you're right about the short termism.

Original post by MatureStudent36

I think companies do do it and do see the benefits of doing it. But at the moment we're ina position where by you can train and invest in an apprentice only for them to get poached by another company. If you were able to say for example, I'll let you do an apprenticeship with me but you're legally bound to either work for me for a period of time before you leave or pay the investment back, they'd be uproar from the liberal left and cries of 'modern day slavery.'

The Germans have got to the stage that it's so widespread that there's no need to poach staff.

But you're right about the short termism.

You're right, companies do see a benefit because there is a genuine benefit - in the long term. Companies are reluctant to invest in apprenticeships because, as you say, there is the risk that they'll get poached by other companies, who get the benefit of a trained and skilled worker immediately without spending anything on their training. And this is a far more attractive idea to businesses in Britain than training your own!

By the way I don't think there's anything legally stopping companies from ensuring that apprentices must stay with the company for a period of time after completion of the apprenticeship. I know for a fact that companies often do that with people whose MBAs they fund.

Reply 13

peter12345

It would never work in this country, everyone is just too snobbish. Vocational learning is almost taboo in this country.

Reply 14

MatureStudent36

5

Original post by peter12345

It would never work in this country, everyone is just too snobbish. Vocational learning is almost taboo in this country.

So are you planning on living on benefits? Or are you from abroad?

Reply 15

peter12345

Original post by MatureStudent36

So are you planning on living on benefits? Or are you from abroad?

???

Reply 16

MatureStudent36

5

Original post by peter12345

???

Apologies. I misread your post. I thought you said that was why you weren't planning on working in the UK.

There is a degree of snobbery, but there's a degree in snobbery in any country.

Reply 17

wildrover

19

Original post by Smack

You're right, companies do see a benefit because there is a genuine benefit - in the long term. Companies are reluctant to invest in apprenticeships because, as you say, there is the risk that they'll get poached by other companies, who get the benefit of a trained and skilled worker immediately without spending anything on their training. And this is a far more attractive idea to businesses in Britain than training your own!

By the way I don't think there's anything legally stopping companies from ensuring that apprentices must stay with the company for a period of time after completion of the apprenticeship. I know for a fact that companies often do that with people whose MBAs they fund.