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Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? - Mk II watch

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    Welcome to the Scottish Independence Megathread! This discussion is a direct continuation of this thread which has now reached over 10k posts and so has to be continued in here.

    Remember to use this thread to discuss the matter of Scottish independence in a friendly manner. The usual D&CA Guidelines apply in here so place nice!
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    l think Salmond is playing a very clever game remaining silent, he knows that the rest of the UK will eventually make Scotland's mind up for them, this is why the YES vote is slowing increasing.
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    (Original post by babybuntin)
    well l don't know about shinny's eyes but it doesn't make you look very Scottish in my eyes.

    more in the lines of a wannabe Scottish like many others l'm seeing in this thread.

    your whole profile indicates a non Scot to me. ( just saying ) you asked the question lol
    Ah, the "you're not really Scottish if you don't support independence" rebuke... that old chestnut again.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Well, hold on just a second here, debt has nothing to do with currency unions. I also find it rather cute that we've got to the stage of the debate where, when it's made clear in completely irreversible terms that something won't happen, the only retort is to say that everyone's lying and that their arguments are entirely made up.

    It put an independent Scotland in an investment grade category, which meant it could get anything around BBB- or above.



    The problem has never been economic dependence on oil, but rather revenue dependence. They are two very different things, and S&P only considered one.

    The proportion of taxes from the North Sea is comfortably beyond 20% in some years - but they are also more volatile than the oil industry generally. Hence the £4.4bn revenue drop this year.
    That makes for some good reading, unfortunaley being an traditional left wing voter I am economically illiterate which I hope to improve come september. A final thing I would like to remark on, is that in recent years the uk marintine board have slow moved the water boarder between england and scotland passed dundee. Think of this what you will but I just wanted to mention it. I'm sorry for my bad grammar but my nokia is getting old
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    (Original post by Smack)
    Ah, the "you're not really Scottish if you don't support independence" rebuke... that old chestnut again.
    did l say you're not Scottish if you don't vote YES.. where? when?
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    (Original post by Boab)
    What has that got to do with this...


    (Original post by Boab)
    Your continued optimism is funny.

    Latest Sunday Times poll disagrees.

    44% of people born in Scotland say YES
    42% of people born in Scotland say NO

    I trust you will now consider Scots wanting to stay in the Union as the minority

    http://www.panelbase.com/media/polls...imestables.pdf

    :rolleyes:

    The debate is whether Scotland should be independent and self-govern. This line of argument must be viewed in a British and European context. Because joining the EU limits a state's ability to do so. If you oppose Scotland having its interest rates set in London, you need to explain why having it set in Frankfurt is vastly superior. The EU is furthering economic integration. If Scotland should be independent then why should it give its right to economic self-governance to Brussels, EU?

    It is like Northern California declaring ›independence only to then rejoin the USA.
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    (Original post by Boab)
    Your continued optimism is funny.

    Latest Sunday Times poll disagrees.

    44% of people born in Scotland say YES
    42% of people born in Scotland say NO

    I trust you will now consider Scots wanting to stay in the Union as the minority

    http://www.panelbase.com/media/polls...imestables.pdf
    It would appear that you've got your wires crossed. Support for yes appears to still be lagging behind the no side.

    http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/...-low-1-3414582

    http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article...40518?irpc=932


    So, after 18 months of this debate, opinion polls still remain broadly the same.

    When you read the papers, you do actually understand what the words mean ?
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    (Original post by Boab)

    44% of people born in Scotland say YES
    42% of people born in Scotland say NO

    I trust you will now consider Scots wanting to stay in the Union as the minority
    Perhaps you can explain the relevance of a poll of people born in Scotland. The referendum has a wider constituency, including people living in Scotland, no matter where they were born. I really don't see the relevance of the views of some arbitrary subgroup.
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    (Original post by Boab)
    Only as silly as Unionists comparing the SNP to UKIP, and not half as silly as your recent outbursts declaring people racists!
    It's racist to say that someone who isn't born in a country can't be considered one of the people of that country. That's fairly straightforward - that's what I said you were suggesting, and you didn't dispute it.

    You can compare anything you want. In every case, there are differences and similarities. UKIP and the SNP share an ideology.

    (Original post by Boab)
    How do we define Scots? Fairly tricky, but using a poll which gathered the data of people only born in Scotland is a fairly decent (if not conclusive) way of excluding the views of non-Scots in Scotland. Otherwise they wouldn't have asked the question!

    Can you be Scottish without being born in Scotland? Of course.
    Then it's not a 'fairly decent' way of doing anything.

    (Original post by E-wan)
    That makes for some good reading, unfortunaley being an traditional left wing voter I am economically illiterate which I hope to improve come september. A final thing I would like to remark on, is that in recent years the uk marintine board have slow moved the water boarder between england and scotland passed dundee. Think of this what you will but I just wanted to mention it. I'm sorry for my bad grammar but my nokia is getting old
    The maritime border hasn't been gradually moving, but you're right that it does stretch up to Dundee - albeit far away from the coast.

    There are actually two boundaries. One set in the 1960s is a jurisdictional limit for the Scottish courts. It still exists, entirely unchanged. However in 1999, a new boundary line was set, which goes further north, for the exercise of Scottish devolved functions (basically some fisheries regulation).

    This was agreed at the time by the Scottish Parliament. More importantly, it follows the internationally recognised equidistance principle for drawing maritime boundaries. You can dispute slight bits here and there by how you take into account river estuaries and stuff, but ultimately if there was an international dispute on sea boundaries between Scotland and England, that's how they would have been set by an impartial organisation.

    On the other side of the country, if you were to head directly west from Cumbrian towns like Workington, you'd find Scottish "adjacent waters" (as the law calls them).
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Perhaps you can explain the relevance of a poll of people born in Scotland. The referendum has a wider constituency, including people living in Scotland, no matter where they were born. I really don't see the relevance of the views of some arbitrary subgroup.
    It gives Boab something to believe in.

    I'm not even going to mention the intrinsic problems that panelbase have had.

    http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/...olls-1-3080830
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    can you be Scottish without being born in Scotland?

    senseless remark
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    (Original post by babybuntin)
    l think Salmond is playing a very clever game remaining silent, he knows that the rest of the UK will eventually make Scotland's mind up for them, this is why the YES vote is slowing increasing.
    In what poll has it increased?

    Because in the last Ipsos Mori, Yougov, Survation and ICM polls, the no lead has increased - and in the last Panelbase and TNS polls, the no lead has remained unchanged.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    In what poll has it increased?

    Because in the last Ipsos Mori, Yougov, Survation and ICM polls, the no lead has increased - and in the last Panelbase and TNS polls, the no lead has remained unchanged.


    The vote seems to be getting stronger yes,
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    (Original post by babybuntin)
    The vote seems to be getting stronger yes,
    The No vote?
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    (Original post by babybuntin)
    The vote seems to be getting stronger yes,
    Hold on, so you've just seen a list of virtually every major polling company showing that the recent trend has been in exactly the opposite direction, and you make that statement?

    You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you?
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    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk
    http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2...nelbase-polls/

    Some analysis for the newest polls.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    The No vote?
    l'm afraid not Good bloke, it's the YES vote which is starting to increase.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Hold on, so you've just seen a list of virtually every major polling company showing that the recent trend has been in exactly the opposite direction, and you make that statement?

    You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, are you?
    well you're plan is starting to back fire.. The yes is urging ahead. not by much at the moment but it's happening.
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    (Original post by babybuntin)
    well you're plan is starting to back fire.. The yes is urging ahead. not by much at the moment but it's happening.
    Well, no. I've just given you a list of major polling companies where the gap is widening in favour of the no vote, or where it has remained static.

    You don't seem able to name a single polling company which is showing the gap narrowing in favour of a yes vote. If you can, you haven't presented it.

    So, when every shred of evidence shows one conclusion, you seem to have drawn the exact opposite one. Why is that?
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Well, no. I've just given you a list of major polling companies where the gap is widening in favour of the no vote, or where it has remained static.

    You seem unable to name a single polling company which is showing the gap narrowing in favour of a yes vote.

    So, when every shred of evidence shows one conclusion, you seem to have drawn the exact opposite one. Why is that?
    l'm afraid it's not from polls. everyone knows you never rely on poll figures
 
 
 
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