Palestine or Israel

Original post by WBZ144

True, I'm certainly no fan of some of the Palestinian leadership but the answer to a group of people being oppressed is not to speculate on how they would behave if they were not living in oppression, it's about how to resolve the situation. It would certainly have been counter-productive to speculate how Black South Africans would behave if they were not living under apartheid as opposed to how to end the apartheid, though I'm sure that some people still did this at the time.

It was a question I was just posing in response to foo's post but this isn't about a competition. This about real people,who are having their relatives murdered on a daily basis,some aren't even allowed to return home to where they grew up or having their homes bulldozed to make way for illegal settlements. You're not the only one who has been asking that question and yet here we are in 2016,with no solution to the crisis

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 282

Original post by queen-bee

Assumptions assumptions

When asked whether he thought a Jewish minority would be treated fairly in a binational state, Said replied that "it worries me a great deal. The question of what is going to be the fate of the Jews is very difficult for me. I really don't know."

Edward Said said that

Along with that the Middle East and North Africa are officially the most antisemitic places on earth.

With the Palestinian Territories the most antisemitic part of the most antisemitic part.

Reply 283

Original post by Hydeman

By 'assumptions', do you mean that I'm speculating? If so, then that's hardly something to complain about, given that you asked a hypothetical question, even if it wasn't directed at me. The answer to a hypothetical question is always going to be speculative to some degree, but, as I've mentioned in my edit (which clearly wasn't quick enough), it's an educated speculation.

It's undeniable (and very far from an 'assumption') that Hamas isn't an organisation that would tolerate Israeli Jews if the balance of power was turned. To admit that is not the equivalent of excusing Israel's crimes.

Nobody said it's the equivalent. Hamas is just as bad as Israel,maybe Israel the lesser of two evils but just as bad.

Reply 284

Original post by garfeeled

When asked whether he thought a Jewish minority would be treated fairly in a binational state, Said replied that "it worries me a great deal. The question of what is going to be the fate of the Jews is very difficult for me. I really don't know."

Edward Said said that

Along with that the Middle East and North Africa are officially the most antisemitic places on earth.

With the Palestinian Territories the most antisemitic part of the most antisemitic part.

Even if Hamas were removed from power? And they had a tolerant leader on both sides?

Reply 285

username471863

Original post by queen-bee

It was a question I was just posing in response to foo's post but this isn't about a competition. This about real people,who are having their relatives murdered on a daily basis,some aren't even allowed to return home to where they grew up or having their homes bulldozed to make way for illegal settlements. You're not the only one who has been asking that question and yet here we are in 2016,with no solution to the crisis

I was agreeing with you. I don't like it when people start to ask about how the Palestinians would behave if the tables were turned because it's almost like a justification and detracts from addressing the root of the problem.

Reply 286

Original post by Foo.mp3

My efforts to educate you, and to encourage you to see the other side in any argument, do not represent bias, dear :rolleyes:

Formerly Arabs-Jews, and laterly, Jews-Arabs, in the territory today known as 'Israel'

Quote the part where I stated/implied those things were justified

God only knows. They democratically elected a terrorist organisation to administer their territory so you wouldn't rule anything out

In certain areas, during certain periods, there was relative peace, with Jews, and other groups, observing subordinate status in relation to Arab Muslims (hence dhimmi). Few would describe that as 'harmony', however, in truth

More like it :hmmm:

I know that and I've actually thanked you in the past for opening my eyes,have I not?

I never said you said those things were justified. That was a general statement I was making about excuses used to justify israel's killings,nothing to do with what you've told me

Perhaps,aye

But there was peace,was there not?

I'm a good Christian Girl and I try my best to follow in the footsteps of Christ but some things I am just so passionate about and yes it conflicts with certain aspects of my religion but it doesn't make me any less Christian as one person on this thread has judged me to be or any less pious

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 287

Original post by WBZ144

I was agreeing with you. I don't like it when people start to ask about how the Palestinians would behave if the tables were turned because it's almost like a justification and detracts from addressing the root of the problem.

I know,Hun. The question is,why can't we just find a solution and finally get to the bottom of this!!! The extent to which some people will go to,just to justify killings of innocent civilians,like the boys on the beach,remember the ones who got shot at last year? Some people were actually justifying this,sickening

Reply 288

troubadour.

Original post by queen-bee

Nobody said it's the equivalent.

You said that my position that Hamas would likely treat the Israelis the same/worse than Israel treats the Palestinians was an assumption, and asked me to refocus on the fact that, currently, Israel is doing the oppression.

I presumed that you said this because you thought that holding the position that Hamas would be equally worse if it had Israel's resources somehow implied that Israel's crimes are justified, hence my clarification. If not, why would you attempt to justify your view that what I said about Hamas is an assumption by using the fact that Israel is guilty of war crimes? It doesn't make sense.

Hamas is just as bad as Israel,maybe Israel the lesser of two evils but just as bad.

Thank you for conceding that, since you were calling that an assumption just moments ago.

Reply 289

Original post by queen-bee

Even if Hamas were removed from power? And they had a tolerant leader on both sides?

See that would be a brilliant situation. The extremes on both sides losing their voice and a middle and accepting leader on both sides. The issue is that would require either the extremes on both sides actually becoming less common or for them to give up trying to influence things. And I don't see that happening anytime soon. The ultra zionists are always going to believe they have some right to the land even (though in my experience it's more especially) if it means trampling on Arabs whilst the Islamists will always believe their system of governance is divine and will always be offended by the mere existance of non Muslim ( especially Jewish) state.

Reply 290

Original post by Hydeman

You said that my position that Hamas would likely treat the Israelis the same/worse than Israel treats the Palestinians was an assumption, and asked me to refocus on the fact that, currently, Israel is doing the oppression.

I presumed that you said this because you thought that holding the position that Hamas would be equally worse if it had Israel's resources somehow implied that Israel's crimes are justified, hence my clarification. If not, why would you attempt to justify your view that what I said about Hamas is an assumption by using the fact that Israel is guilty of war crimes? It doesn't make sense.

Thank you for conceding that, since you were calling that an assumption just moments ago.

I didn't mention any particular party or did I specifically mention Hamas as being the ones in power first? That is why o said assumptions assumptions because I thought you had gone on to just assume all Arabs are antisemites. Hamas may be leading Gaza but what if they were no longer in power? What if there was a new leadership? We already know Israel is doing the oppressing but so is Hamas.

I didn't mention Hamas,again,you choose to jump to the conclusion that I was talking about them. I didn't give you any specifics. I could've been talking about a free thinking and tolerant leader for the Palestinians for all you know and actually I've never denied that Hamas were a terrorist organisation. If you look throughout this thread,before you've even quoted me tonight you'll see

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 291

Original post by garfeeled

See that would be a brilliant situation. The extremes on both sides losing their voice and a middle and accepting leader on both sides. The issue is that would require either the extremes on both sides actually becoming less common or for them to give up trying to influence things. And I don't see that happening anytime soon. The ultra zionists are always going to believe they have some right to the land even (though in my experience it's more especially) if it means trampling on Arabs whilst the Islamists will always believe their system of governance is divine and will always be offended by the mere existance of non Muslim ( especially Jewish) state.

So maybe a two state solution is the only real solution to the problem?

Reply 292

username471863

Original post by queen-bee

I know,Hun. The question is,why can't we just find a solution and finally get to the bottom of this!!! The extent to which some people will go to,just to justify killings of innocent civilians,like the boys on the beach,remember the ones who got shot at last year? Some people were actually justifying this,sickening

I know, it's draining at times :frown:

Reply 293

Original post by queen-bee

So maybe a two state solution is the only real solution to the problem?

In my opinion it's certainly far more preferable than a one state solution (at least in the current state things are in) but I don't see it coming about any time soon. A popular revolution is needed to remove Hamas and isreal won't allow that sort of thing to happen (not stating they want Hamas in power but a popular revolution will be chaos enough to result in greater attacks against isreal which isreal will respond with crushing force that they usually do) and that will either keep Hamas in power or heaven forbidden bring about a more extreme leading party.

A part of me things that the only way forward is through extreme action, as in a three state solution with Egypt and Jordan. Some governments supportive of a palastinian state coming in amd taking power from the extremists and going to active on the ground efforts to eradicate them. But truth be that isn't going to work either.

It's a whole lotta mess that I don't think has a clear solution. There's an uncertainty principle to the whole thing and it gives people valid reason to resist change.

Reply 294

troubadour.

Original post by queen-bee

I didn't mention any particular party or did I specifically mention Hamas as being the ones in power first?

You didn't, but my first reply to you clearly referred to them, and you called that an assumption; I didn't say anything about Palestinians more generally. For reference, here's our conversation (square brackets added retrospectively):

Original post by queen-bee

If the tables were turned,do you believe Palestinians would treat Israel as badly as they are doing to the Palestinians?

Original post by Hydeman

Their leadership [i.e. Hamas] certainly would, yeah.

Original post by queen-bee

Assumptions assumptions

Original post by Hydeman

It's a pretty educated speculation, I'd say. :tongue:

Original post by queen-bee

I never even asked you, habibi. We don't have be answer to that question so in the meantime it's just assumptions because Israel is doing the oppressing

That is why o said assumptions assumptions because I thought you had gone on to just assume all Arabs are antisemites.

I didn't assume that. :tongue:

You probably misread my first reply, because I was clearly referring to the leadership, not Palestinians more generally (see conversation above).

Hamas may be leading Gaza but what if they were no longer in power? What if there was a new leadership? We already know Israel is doing the oppressing but so is Hamas.

That would be a step in the right direction. :smile:

I didn't mention Hamas,again,you choose to jump to the conclusion that I was talking about them.

You weren't in your reply to Foo (and I don't pretend that you were), but then I replied saying that their leadership would, and from then on the reasonable assumption was that you were referring to them when you said 'assumptions assumptions.' :tongue:

I didn't give you any specifics. I could've been talking about a free thinking and tolerant leader for the Palestinians for all you know

You could, but generally speaking 'the leadership' means the party currently in power.

and actually I've never denied that Hamas were a terrorist organisation. If you look throughout this thread,before you've even quoted me tonight you'll see

Never said you did. :mmm:

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 295

Josb

6

Original post by garfeeled

See that would be a brilliant situation. The extremes on both sides losing their voice and a middle and accepting leader on both sides. The issue is that would require either the extremes on both sides actually becoming less common or for them to give up trying to influence things. And I don't see that happening anytime soon. The ultra zionists are always going to believe they have some right to the land even (though in my experience it's more especially) if it means trampling on Arabs whilst the Islamists will always believe their system of governance is divine and will always be offended by the mere existance of non Muslim ( especially Jewish) state.

The current demographics of Israel makes the electoral victory of a moderate party very unlikely. The "ultra Zionists" are now in majority...

Reply 296

Original post by Josb

The current demographics of Israel makes the electoral victory of a moderate party very unlikely. The "ultra Zionists" are now in majority...

They never needed to be in the majority. As long as they were loud and active enough then it would hold enough influence to hold things back. Them being in the majority just makes it harder to reverse.

Reply 297

Josb

6

Original post by queen-bee

So maybe a two state solution is the only real solution to the problem?

As I said earlier in the thread, a two state solution is now impossible as there are 300,000 colonists in East Jerusalem and 300,000 more in West Bank settlements. These colonists are all armed and they built their homes like bunkers. They will not leave.

The only chance for Palestinians to "free" the West Bank from Jewish settlements would be to "exchange" it for East Jerusalem. Israeli have always wanted to have the whole of Jerusalem and most of the biggest colonies are located there. Moreover, Israel has officially annexed it since 1980; they will not reconsider this decision.

Then, the Israeli government could take action to remove the settlements in the West Bank.

Reply 298

troubadour.