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Reply 20
Oswy
I hope you're not making the mistake of thinking that I've been advocating communism in my OP - by all means read it again, I haven't done that at all.

What you have to remember is that modern industrial capitalism is one of a number of socio-economic systems which have been around in human civilisation. Systems like hunter-gatherer, communal-agrarian and war-tribute have all existed and sometimes existed with high levels of internal stability. No economic system of humanity is 'natural' as such, human culture is much more complicated than a naive sociobiology might have you believing.


How's that relevant to you making statements about an economic system despite not knowing any economics or prior economic debates?
Reply 21
Bismarck
How's that relevant to you making statements about an economic system despite not knowing any economics or prior economic debates?


By all means address specific statements I've made in the OP. Thus far, however, you've just made general comments about Marxists. I'll clarify that my OP does not promote Communism (or indeed any alternative system) but only seeks to explain and critique capitalism. My OP does not advocate or depend on any use of Marxian economic theory beyond what is contained in the OP itself. Quote something I've said in the OP and criticise it, by all means. Otherwise you're just wearing out your keyboard for nothing.
Reply 22
Oswy
My dictionary offers 'exploit' thus:

"Make use of and derive benefit from (a resource)."

Which I think is a good enough starting point.

According to your definition, exploitation is not undesirable. On the contrary, the definition appears to give a positive meaning to exploitation (as "benefit" is derived). With this in mind, why is it wrong for the the 'capitalist' to 'exploit' the 'worker'?

I re-submit an improved version. What I think is interesting is that some of my points, rather than being refuted, are greeted with "so what?"; powerful evidence that I've hit the nail on the head in ways that the pro-capitalist struggled to deny!

Not really. When 'we' say "so what?" we're pointing out that you've not explained or justified why something is undesirable. We're neither agreeing or disagreeing with what you've said, merely asking how it's linked to the alleged shortfalls of capitalism. We can't really agree or disagree with you until you've made the link as there's nothing to disagree with.
How about a capitalist critique of Marxism.

All we are pointing out is that you fail to understand that the cornerstone of capitalism is free people making voluntary exchnges.

It is perfectly possible witihn a capitalism economy to go back to growing all of your own food and living a subsistance lifestyle, or indeed, to work for yourself and employ others who also freely contractually oblige themselves to you.

Your critique also fails to give a viable alternative.
Reply 24
gideon2000uk
All we are pointing out is that you fail to understand that the cornerstone of capitalism is free people making voluntary exchnges.

The Vietnamese sweatshop worker makes a "voluntary exchange"? Well, if you're going to dress it up like that, then I guess it does sound rather nice and fluffy. Unfortunately (for the Vietnamese person) it ain't nice and fluffy.
Bismarck

How's that relevant to you making statements about an economic system despite not knowing any economics or prior economic debates?

Where did you do your economics degree, Bismarck?
phawkins1988
The Vietnamese sweatshop worker makes a "voluntary exchange"? Well, if you're going to dress it up like that, then I guess it does sound rather nice and fluffy. Unfortunately (for the Vietnamese person) it ain't nice and fluffy.


It happens to be nicer and fluffier than the alternative - Why do you think people are willing to work there? Why do you think there are huge waiting lists to work there?
Reply 26
ForeverIsMyName
It happens to be nicer and fluffier than the alternative - Why do you think people are willing to work there? Why do you think there are huge waiting lists to work there?

Because having a ****, soul destroying job is better than starving. I'm not denying that.

I'm reminded of a quote from one of the Sam & Max videogames (paraphrased):

"Why are you working gutting fish? I thought you were allergic to fish"
"Yeah, but I'm more allergic to poverty".

The Vietnamese worker makes a "voluntary exchange" in the same sense that I make a voluntary exchange when I hand over my wallet to the man with the knife. After all, I weigh up the alternatives, and the "give my wallet" option lies on a higher indifference curve than the "get stabbed" option.
phawkins1988
The Vietnamese sweatshop worker makes a "voluntary exchange"? Well, if you're going to dress it up like that, then I guess it does sound rather nice and fluffy. Unfortunately (for the Vietnamese person) it ain't nice and fluffy.


Yes he absolutely does make a voluntary exchange. Who is coercing him into staying?

Where did you do your economics degree, Bismarck?


Why the hell does this matter?
phawkins1988


The Vietnamese worker makes a "voluntary exchange" in the same sense that I make a voluntary exchange when I hand over my wallet to the man with the knife.


This is just utterly BS, I'm sorry. The man with the knife is coercing you into handing over your wallet at the threat of violence. Who the hell is coercing the Vietnamese worker?
Reply 29
DrunkHamster
Yes he absolutely does make a voluntary exchange. Who is coercing him into staying?

I don't think a choice between starving and having a crap job is a real choice at all. See my wallet analogy in the above post.
DrunkHamster
Why the hell does this matter?

Because I find it ironic that Bismarck is criticising Oswy for not knowing about economics (this has yet to be backed up with evidence - all we've had so far are a few vague statements about "not knowing economic debates") when the person doing the criticising hasn't offered an economic argument in the thread, and I, suspect, has no more formal education in economics than Oswy does (not that it is necessary to have a formal education in economics to make good economic arguments).
Reply 30
DrunkHamster
This is just utterly BS, I'm sorry. The man with the knife is coercing you into handing over your wallet at the threat of violence. Who the hell is coercing the Vietnamese worker?

What difference does the manner of threat make? In both scenarios, it's do X or die. A man does not freely do X when his only alternative is death.
phawkins1988
What difference does the manner of threat make? In both scenarios, it's do X or die. A man does not freely do X when his only alternative is death.


Because in one scenario we have someone who will physically kill you if you refuse to hand over your wallet, and in the other scenario we have someone who will refuse to make a transaction with you. Can you honestly not see the difference between threatening to kill someone and threatening to withdraw your cooperation?

Edited to say: your definition of freedom is not coherent in the first place. Is Robinson Crusoe shipwrecked on an island free to do anything he wants? Of course he is. But even he has to eat...
Reply 32
DrunkHamster
Because in one scenario we have someone who will physically kill you if you refuse to hand over your wallet, and in the other scenario we have someone who will refuse to make a transaction with you. Can you honestly not see the difference between threatening to kill someone and threatening to withdraw your cooperation?

I don't buy this dichotomy between immoral acts and (morally neutral?) omissions. If I know that my omission will cause a death, and still fail to act, I am as morally culpable as if I'd pulled the trigger (ceteris paribus - clearly in some situations there will be some morally significant thing which will alter this. If I fail to jump in front of a bullet which is going to hit someone else, I'm not as morally culpable as the murderer).
Reply 33
DrunkHamster
Edited to say: your definition of freedom is not coherent in the first place. Is Robinson Crusoe shipwrecked on an island free to do anything he wants? Of course he is. But even he has to eat...

Property relations don't exist on this island, though. Suppose the island is divided up into two, and Man Friday owns half, and Crusoe owns half. In a private property system, Crusoe is not free to eat on Friday's half on the island.

It is a truism that free acts have to be done somewhere. Private property relations necessarily limit freedom (this is not to say that private property is a bad thing).
phawkins1988
I don't buy this dichotomy between immoral acts and (morally neutral?) omissions. If I know that my omission will cause a death, and still fail to act, I am as morally culpable as if I'd pulled the trigger (ceteris paribus - clearly in some situations there will be some morally significant thing which will alter this. If I fail to jump in front of a bullet which is going to hit someone else, I'm not as morally culpable as the murderer).


First of all you're confusing a moral act with an enforcible moral act. Would it be immoral to refuse food to a starving person if you had plenty? Probably. But should it be enforcible? Should the starving person be able to seek redress for this immoral action? That's a whole other question. But this is a different situation from, say when a mugger robs someone's wallet at knifepoint. Is the mugger acting immorally? Probably. Should the victim be able to seek redress for this immoral action? Absolutely, because his rights have been violated. I don't see how you can say the rights of the Vietnamese worker have been violated by someone refusing to engage in a co-operative transaction with them...

Secondly, I honestly don't see your point about jumping in front of bullets. Surely under your twisted conception of morality, if it was in my power to jump in front of the bullet I would morally have to do so, else I'm as guilty as the person who pulled the trigger. Can you explain why this absurd conclusion doesn't follow?
phawkins1988
If I know that my omission will cause a death, and still fail to act, I am as morally culpable as if I'd pulled the trigger


I don't really want to take this debate off into the realm of philosophy, but I disagree that there is no act-omission distinction.

To give a simple example (not my own):

A man in America is threatening to commit suicide unless you travel across the atlantic and talk to him.

Clearly, there is no absolute moral obligation to do this - and the man who refuses is not guilty of the act of murder.

The problem is that if we legislated that people who were guilty of omission are culpable to the same extent as those who commit an act we are placing too great a burden on individual liberty.

In the case of an act you are prohibited from carrying out the one act that will result in death, whereas in the case of an ommission you are compelled to do a single act and so you are prevented from doing one of many other acts which would have resulted in death.
phawkins1988
Property relations don't exist on this island, though. Suppose the island is divided up into two, and Man Friday owns half, and Crusoe owns half. In a private property system, Crusoe is not free to eat on Friday's half on the island.

It is a truism that free acts have to be done somewhere. Private property relations necessarily limit freedom (this is not to say that private property is a bad thing).


Exactly, that is precisely the point of property rights - to own x is to be the one person with the right to freely use x according to taste. But I know of no conception of property rights which would allow someone to say "this half of the island is mine and this half is yours." There has to be some Lockean mixing of labour in the process.
Reply 37
Wez
According to your definition, exploitation is not undesirable. On the contrary, the definition appears to give a positive meaning to exploitation (as "benefit" is derived). With this in mind, why is it wrong for the the 'capitalist' to 'exploit' the 'worker'?


"Make use of and derive benefit from (a resource)."


The capitalist, having taken contrrol of the means of production of the wage-labourer, gets to make use of the latter's labour and benefit from it. I'm not at this point discussing the 'right' or 'wrong' of this approrpriation of means of production, but only identifying it as a fact. Beyond that I'd suggest that the capitalist probably does see this process 'positively' because they control the form of and obtain the benefit from what was otherwise another's means of production.
phawkins1988
The Vietnamese worker makes a "voluntary exchange" in the same sense that I make a voluntary exchange when I hand over my wallet to the man with the knife. After all, I weigh up the alternatives, and the "give my wallet" option lies on a higher indifference curve than the "get stabbed" option.


What a silly analogy.

Everyone must work in society, I don't see anyone claiming otherwise. The job we choose is dependent on valuation of benefit. Unless you're advocating a system where we choose our own wage and conditions, I fail to see your argument.

And I believe Bis studied economics at LSE.
Oswy
Here’s my offering on how capitalism works (i.e. ‘reproduces’ itself).

Before I get started it’s worth noting that what ‘capitalism’ is can be understood in different terms. Sometime people think of market economy, some emphasise wage-labour and elsewhere capitalism is understood as a system dominated by ‘big’ capital in the form of corporatism. These ways of seeing capitalism are all valuable, but from a Marxist perspective they tend to represent only a partial view. Marx had a more exacting way of looking at capitalism. For him, capitalism is a relationship in which working people are separate from the control over the means of production. Instead, this means of production is owned by another group (capitalists) whose activities organise the economy to their own ends.
The problems with your line of reasoning start at the beginning and continue from there. Here you decide to define capitalism not as a consistent philosophical concept, but just whatever policies the "ruling classes" enact. This means that things like mercantilism and feudalism and the aspects of those systems that have survived into the modern era (the 19th century if you're taking a purely Marxist perspective). In fact capitalism (or 'free market liberalism', as I could more correctly term it) had a very clear and specific definition at the time Marx was writing, and that was founded essentially on the principle of self-ownership, from which everything else is derived. Now society in 19th century Europe was not consistently a 'free market liberal' place, but free market liberalism was largely responsible for the progress society had made starting in the 18th century and continuing to this day.

Especially important in this is the way the capitalist economy, having removed the means of production from workers, requires that in order to survive workers must sell their work to the owners.As well as this relationship taking control of production out of the hands of the workers, capitalism also directs work to one specific end; profit. The goal of capitalists is to make profit for themselves. You might come across someone telling you that the purpose of capitalists is productivity, but this is only a means to an end. Indeed it’s possible for capitalists to pursue their profits on the basis of scarcity; it is profit and the accumulation of capital that is the actual goal of capitalist behaviour.

Within the capitalist system the capitalist purchases the right to exploit the work potential of those who have been alienated from the means of production and who must labour for capitalists in order to receive wages. The capitalist, generally, pays wages which meet customary needs though sometimes competition with other forces in capitalism require him to offer higher wages. Nevertheless, the incentive of the capitalist is always to pay as little as is possible taking all other factors into account – profit is for the capitalist remember, not the wage-labourer. In some circumstances the capitalist is able to keep (or even push) wages down, or require harder work and longer hours; if profit would benefit from these things, as can be the case, and there are no legal obstacles, this is what the capitalist is driven to do. Pay and conditions for wage-labourers are only the capitalist’s concern if they affect profit and the capitalist will use carrot or stick to suit this end. In other words, the capitalist’s interest in the wage-labourer is as a tool for profit, all other considerations are motivated by this end. Ideally, from the capitalist’s perspective, the wage-labourer works and produces as much capital as possible for that capitalist. This accumulated capital can then contribute to the investment in further means of production, through the purchase of more machinery, property, wage-labourers and so on.

Defining capitalism as you did, and not as a system founded on self-ownership, along with an ignorance of history, is what leads you to misunderstand what is going on here. The means of production had not been removed from the workers. Not only had the workers never historically owned their farms in even in the agrian economy, but the new means of production of the 19th century (ie. factories) were just that - new. They had only ever belonged to their present owners, built on debt at the owners' risk. As such, the working classes did not lose anything at all - they had never owned the factories and, if they had wanted, they could have continued with their agrian lifestyles.

The question we must ask ourselves is: why didn't they? If you adopt a Marxist outlook this is hard to rationalise - why would someone willingly subject themself to "alienation" and "exploitation" by someone who would only ever pay them a subsistence wage? Marx decides to rationalise this by claiming that the workers had somehow been made into kinds of serfs, but this is not true. Due to the principle of self-ownership that pervaded at that time, factory owners did not have the power to coerce people into working in their factories. The working classes were desperate for factory jobs because they provided a better wage than any other occupation open to them.

This is why we witness the European population explosion beginning in the 18th and 19th century, and why London becomes the largest city on the face of the earth. Living standards, whilst low compared to modern standards, were better than they had ever been. Marx lived at a time of great increase in living standards, but while if he had a scientific mind he could have examined the evidence and seen this, he instead chose to blindly deny it was happening.

You diverge from Marx's thought by claiming the contrary, probably because you realise how stupid you would look today if you followed the Marxist line to the letter, but your rationalisation is also based on your misunderstanding of the capitalist system - in a society where everyone has self-ownership, competition for labour is not just an incidental, temporary process that will eventually give way to the reduction of all wages to subsistence level as predicted by Marx all along, but a natural and unavoidable process. Both the owner and the worker are free agents, and neither can compel the other to work for him - it is in the interests of both for the workers to work in the owner's factory. It is true that it is in the owner's interests for the workers to work for nothing, but equally it is in the workers' interests for the owner to pay them all the profits - what actually happens is something in between, dependent on how many other factories and how many other potential workers there are.

When we look at what capital is today we are seeing what a long history of wage-labour exploitation has accumulated. None of the wealth (or poverty) you see around you has come out of thin air, it has come from a widespread (and admittedly complex) action in which workers, alienated from their means of production, have been forced to work for wages so that the greater benefit of that relationship can enrich the capitalist.

This, as I understand it, leads to the central critique of capitalism by Marx; Capital is the result of exploitation in which the workers’ own productive potentials are alienated from them for someone else’s benefit, the capitalist. The workers’ own energies and skills are turned into a tool for others in a relationship they have no choice but to participate in.

If workers were indeed the only component of a successful economy then they could simply build and operate the factory themselves. The reason that they don't - and instead work for someone else who built a factory on his own - is that workers are not the only components of a successful economy. How, then, can it be claimed that factory owners do not provide anything of economic value?

What techniques might benefit the capitalist in the accumulation of capital? I’ve already mentioned how capitalists seek to keep wages as low as is beneficial for profit, or make their wage-labourers work harder or do more hours. Capitalism’s longstanding hostility to attempted collective bargaining by workers (no matter how weak) is evidence of its priorities. More subtlety there is capital's extension into political and social life so as to benefit profit-making and normativise the relationship of exploitation. The almost complete commercialisation of leisure and modern ‘fashion’ culture are good examples of how capitalism promotes and reproduces internalised values conducive to profit making - in the process making capitalist values our values. But we shouldn’t lose sight of what the underlying purpose of Formula One Racing or Big Brother is, it is (in the last instance) to encourage us to help make profits for capitalists and, more insidiously, see society and culture as naturalistically capitalist.

Formula 1, Big Brother and other leisure activities cost money to produce. Would you rather that the funding for them be extorted from people at gunpoint by the government than funding be provided by freely as part of a mutually acceptable exchange? Or would you rather they just be banned? I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

The logic of capitalism is not to make the world a better place (even if you believe that it is doing this). The logic of capitalism is about exploitation for profit, as already identified. The processes of capitalism involve paying as little as can be got away with (especially in the third-world where regulations are lax) and the general avoidance of any costs which interfere with profit.

Further errors as a result of your skewed definition. Capitalism is a system that gives everyone self-ownership, not one that gives special power to some sort of "overclass". Of course employers want to pay workers as little as possible, but workers want to be paid as much as possible. Since neither of them can force the other to do what they want, they have to enter a mutually acceptable exchange, which is why we have actually observed rapidly rising living standards throughout the time capitalism has been the dominant economic system in the world, rather than the plateauing of living standard that your theory predicts.

Widespread pollution of, and damage to, the environment has taken place through capitalist processes simply because capitalism is not motivated by anything other than profit making. Where, for example, capitalism has shown interest in environmentalism we should note that this is only because it is deemed strategically useful for image and profits.

The environment is damaged as a result of all industrial activity, not just capitalist industrial activity, and people (even communists, believe it or not) place more importance on the enhanced living standards industrial activity brings than the prosperity of often beautiful but ultimately useless wildlife. Environmental damage has been even worse in the Soviet Union and other planned economies of the kind Marx advocated, although admittedly as a result of the inefficient and backward nature of the industry these economies have created, rather than any intentional attack on the environment. Capitalism, meanwhile, disallows the damage of others' property without their consent.

<ranting about how people are duped into accepting capitalism>

Another element in obscuring the exploitative nature of capitalism is the way wage-labourers are encouraged to see their benefits (wages) as representing the &#8216;real&#8217; value of their time and skill even though they have no choice but to wage-labour.

In the sense that if you sit in the middle of the road people won't bring you food and clothes and a house, yes you have to work. You don't have to work for someone else, nor do you have to work for just one potential employer. People often prefer working for others because it is easier than entrepreneurship, but that is not the same, nor is it true to say that just because of someone's inclination to work for an employer (if you accept that lack of inclination to work for themselves is equivalent to coersion on the part of the system) they are in any sense forced to work for any individual employer. The market does represent the value of your labour to others - what measure of value would you use?

For most of us our choices as to what wage-labour we can do are very limited (I&#8217;m speaking globally here &#8211; capitalism is a global system remember). It depends on where we live,

Yes, you quite clearly realise that the only way you can possibly defend your "people don't have a choice what work to do" claim is to widen your scope from just the capitalist west to include poorly developed and socialist countries as well. I don't see how that demonstrates the failings of capitalism, which is not implemented consistently across the globe.

what class we are part of,

In so far as class even exists, it is perfectly possible in the capitalist world to become very rich starting from any level. It is certainly possible for the vast majority to achieve a comfortable standard of living.

what our gender or ethnicity is,

Capitalism did not cause racism or sexism - both are far older concepts that have been gradually eroding throughout the time capitalism has existed.

There&#8217;s also the sense in which the origins of things like technology, skyscrapers, production systems, medicine and science generally are not often understood as a product of wage-labour exploitation, but as the fruits of capitalism.

So why aren't they the fruits of capitalism? Is it just a coincidence that all of these things are concentrated almost exclusively in the capitalist west?

Finally, and possible most pernicious of all, is that the system of capitalism is so pervasive that the wage-labourer really does need the capitalist in order to meet their needs. The system has made those alienated from the means of production utterly dependent upon those who have capital. As it is only the capitalist hand that feeds the wage-labourer it is often difficult to see that hand as exploitative let alone see that there might be another way to live.

Employers don't feed workers like pets, as you magnanimously proclaim, but as a result of a mutually acceptable exchange. In Marx's day, when the residue of the feudal system meant that most of the factories were owned by aristocrats, this was a more defensible proposition, but nowadays when many employers were originally "working class" it just sounds ridiculous.

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