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Catalonia is outside of the law watch

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    So what?

    The whole point is that they don't want to be a part of Spain, i.e. Spanish law can go **** itself.

    And with regards to international law, well I find it silly if someone thinks "international" law says area x of country y cannot leave y. Sure, countries can refuse to accept the existence of Catalonia as a country, but that won't stop them being independent of Spain, as well as being silly. The "West" loves democracy doesn't it, so if the region wants to do something and does it democratically, suddenly that has no meaning?
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    So what you're trying to say is that regions should just be able to walk out of the nations they are currently a part of, even if it infringes the constitution? Under this logic, should "freemen-on-the-land"/"sovereign citizens" be deemed to be independent nation-states if a majority votes for it? Your logic leaves much to be desired.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    So what?

    The whole point is that they don't want to be a part of Spain, i.e. Spanish law can go **** itself.

    And with regards to international law, well I find it silly if someone thinks "international" law says area x of country y cannot leave y. Sure, countries can refuse to accept the existence of Catalonia as a country, but that won't stop them being independent of Spain, as well as being silly. The "West" loves democracy doesn't it, so if the region wants to do something and does it democratically, suddenly that has no meaning?
    The referendum may not have been legal but that simply means the government don’t have to respect it.
    They didn’t need to attack voters and the people manning the polling stations.
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    (Original post by paul514)
    The referendum may not have been legal but that simply means the government don’t have to respect it.
    They didn’t need to attack voters and the people manning the polling stations.
    But what does that mean? If the entire region sets up say borders, stops paying federal tax, what will Spain do? Arrest everyone?
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    But what does that mean? If the entire region sets up say borders, stops paying federal tax, what will Spain do? Arrest everyone?
    It’s a separate matter all we have seen is a vote and then violence by the state
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    But what does that mean? If the entire region sets up say borders, stops paying federal tax, what will Spain do? Arrest everyone?
    Most likely send in armed forces
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    (Original post by spidle)
    Most likely send in armed forces
    Amazing set of laws...
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    Referendum was illegal, Catalonia isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
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    All revolutions are illegal. That's the whole point of a revolution in fact, people are dissatisfied with the law, constitution and how its treating them so they rebel. You think the Brits wanted America to become independent? Americans opposed the institution regardless
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    The "West" loves democracy doesn't it, so if the region wants to do something and does it democratically, suddenly that has no meaning?
    The only issue with that is the vote hasn't been all that clear. There have been no official results yet, but while its estimated to have returned a 90% out verdict, the turnout is reportedly low, at around 42%. It doesn't help their credibility.
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    Problem is they have no military so they are screwed.


    Spain could come in with their army and take over everything, the EU would do nothing but call for peace. Lol
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    The only issue with that is the vote hasn't been all that clear. There have been no official results yet, but while its estimated to have returned a 90% out verdict, the turnout is reportedly low, at around 42%. It doesn't help their credibility.
    Of course, but that is also largely due to trying to shut it down.
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    (Original post by God Almighty)
    Oh the delicious irony of implying that because most Catalans want out their decision should be respected (i.e. democracy) and that they should thus go about achieving this undemocratically.

    Your post stinks of triggered, infantile logic. First off, in terms of actually wanting independence from Spain, it's around a 50/50 split in Catalonia. And then most of those who do want it are just in love with the fantasy, surreal idea of being their own country without giving consideration to the actual, practical reality of splitting away from Spain. Anyone with two brain cells can see that the latter decision would be disastrous for Catalonia.

    The bottom line is that the referendum was illegal. No ifs, no buts and consequently the Spanish State had every right to intervene and prohibit it, in whatever way possible. Do I wish not as much violence had been used? Of course, but in such a heated situation some violence was necessary, just as British police had to use more violence than normal to deal with the London riots. There are those who say the state only intervened in this referendum because they know/think Catalonia would vote out and that had an illegal referendum taken place in another Spanish autonomous community that would decidedly vote to stay the state wouldn't have bothered. This claim is infantile and totally ignorant of the law. The state would have intervened and stopped ANY and EVERY illegal referendum in ANY autonomous community of Spain, regardless of which way it's perceived to swing.

    So no, you and the Catalans who uphold the illegal referendum can go **** yourselves. The law is the law and the constitution is the constitution, which will be respected and your suggestion that Catalonia should break away on its own and create a pseudo state is beyond ridiculous and quite frankly, a fairytale course of action that you probably don't even believe yourself.

    Sincerely,

    a Catalan who sees how stupid this whole independence thing is. Long live Catalonia! Long live Spain, of which Catalonia is and always will be a part!
    Ironic, that is exactly what you sound like, upset that your government will proclaim independence.

    Anyway, go be triggered somewhere else, this is for debate not petty kids ranting.
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    (Original post by 27FT)
    All revolutions are illegal. That's the whole point of a revolution in fact, people are dissatisfied with the law, constitution and how its treating them so they rebel. You think the Brits wanted America to become independent? Americans opposed the institution regardless
    Excellently put. Legal regimes are often if not usually based on acts of lawbreaking.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    The only issue with that is the vote hasn't been all that clear. There have been no official results yet, but while its estimated to have returned a 90% out verdict, the turnout is reportedly low, at around 42%. It doesn't help their credibility.
    Likewise it can't be said the vote was carried out under fair democratic conditions when you have militarised police beating people up and blocking people from voting. Considering this factor the turnout is more impressive.
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    This could all have been avoided if Rajoy and Co. had been willing to accept some form of independence referendum - and it's worth pointing out that Catalan public opinion is pretty even split, it would be far from a certainty that the separatists would win a fair referendum.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    This could all have been avoided if Rajoy and Co. had been willing to accept some form of independence referendum - and it's worth pointing out that Catalan public opinion is pretty even split, it would be far from a certainty that the separatists would win a fair referendum.
    They probably would win now though.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    They probably would win now though.
    Oh, I agree. Madrid has crossed the Rubicon now, unless the Rajoy government suddenly collapses in the next fortnight or so.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Oh, I agree. Madrid has crossed the Rubicon now, unless the Rajoy government suddenly collapses in the next fortnight or so.
    I spotted some CNT flags in the crowds in the news today. If only anarcho-syndicalism were a strong social force again as apposed to just being a fringe of flag wavers. *sigh*
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    (Original post by 27FT)
    All revolutions are illegal. That's the whole point of a revolution in fact, people are dissatisfied with the law, constitution and how its treating them so they rebel. You think the Brits wanted America to become independent? Americans opposed the institution regardless
    The US War for Independence is a bad example, somewhat. According to John Adams, only around a third of Colonialists positively supported American independence. It was an undemocratic exercise. The problem with the Catalan referendum, its being outside the law, is that it lacks legitimacy. Not everyone participated and we don't know that the ballots were securely managed. It is important to keep everything legal and in line with the Spanish constitution because that is the only way the Catalans will secure a democratic legitimate independence, without tumult.
 
 
 
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