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God, I hate Chem and it hates me!
Dear all,
I have four questions which i would like to ask and i'd be grateful if you could answer them.
First one involves Halogens - Hate them! lol. I just don't understand what the whole thing is? What are we trying to work out? Why do we add silver nitrate? What are the colours of the halogens before added? I don't understand them at all.
Secondly, does anyone know all the names for the different structures such as giant ionic lattice etc. and where does giant molecular come in - just diamond and graphite?
Thirdly, may someone explain what it means by something is the oxidising agen. I understand oxidation and reduction in terms of electrons "OILRIG" but i don't understand that a certain element is the oxidising or reducing agent.
Finally, i always thought group 1 and 2 formed ionic bonds so do they form metallic ones to?
Many thanks - sorry its long!
TheBiologyStudent
I have four questions which i would like to ask and i'd be grateful if you could answer them.
First one involves Halogens - Hate them! lol. I just don't understand what the whole thing is? What are we trying to work out? Why do we add silver nitrate? What are the colours of the halogens before added? I don't understand them at all.
Secondly, does anyone know all the names for the different structures such as giant ionic lattice etc. and where does giant molecular come in - just diamond and graphite?
Thirdly, may someone explain what it means by something is the oxidising agen. I understand oxidation and reduction in terms of electrons "OILRIG" but i don't understand that a certain element is the oxidising or reducing agent.
Finally, i always thought group 1 and 2 formed ionic bonds so do they form metallic ones to?
Many thanks - sorry its long!
TheBiologyStudent
Scroll to see replies
you add silver nitrate cos the silver compounds which are produced have easier to distinguish colours i think, oxidising agents oxidise other things so they reduce themselves (it always happens in pairs redox one thing gains electrons the other lsoes them) so in other words they're chronic electron stealers. group I and II form ionic bonds with other compounds and metallic with themselves i think.
1. Adding silver nitrate causes the formation of a precipitate
Chlorine - yellow, add silver nitrate makes silver chloride which is a white precipitate
Bromine - orange, add silver nitrate makes silver bromide which is a cream precipitate
Iodine - dark brown, add silver nitrate makes silver iodide which is a yellow precipitate
The whole point of adding silver nitrate is to confirm the presence of either chlorine, bromine or iodine
2. Simple molecular - small covalent compounds like water
Giant molecular - diamond, silicon dioxide (sand)
Giant ionic - sodium chloride (table salt)
3. Oxidation is loss of electrons, reduction is gain of electrons
When something is oxidised, it loses electrons, and these electrons are passed to the oxidising agent
When something is reduced, it gains electrons, and these electrons come from the reducing agent
In short, a reducing agent is something which is oxidised, and an oxidising agent is something which is reduced.
Reduction and oxidation always occur simultaneously
4. Group 1 and 2 form ionic bonds with other molecules e.g. Na and Cl
Metallic bonding occurs between the ions of an individual group 1 or 2 metal
e.g. Sodium metal consists of Na+ ions and electrons. They are bonded by the forces of attraction existing between Na+ and e-
Chlorine - yellow, add silver nitrate makes silver chloride which is a white precipitate
Bromine - orange, add silver nitrate makes silver bromide which is a cream precipitate
Iodine - dark brown, add silver nitrate makes silver iodide which is a yellow precipitate
The whole point of adding silver nitrate is to confirm the presence of either chlorine, bromine or iodine
2. Simple molecular - small covalent compounds like water
Giant molecular - diamond, silicon dioxide (sand)
Giant ionic - sodium chloride (table salt)
3. Oxidation is loss of electrons, reduction is gain of electrons
When something is oxidised, it loses electrons, and these electrons are passed to the oxidising agent
When something is reduced, it gains electrons, and these electrons come from the reducing agent
In short, a reducing agent is something which is oxidised, and an oxidising agent is something which is reduced.
Reduction and oxidation always occur simultaneously
4. Group 1 and 2 form ionic bonds with other molecules e.g. Na and Cl
Metallic bonding occurs between the ions of an individual group 1 or 2 metal
e.g. Sodium metal consists of Na+ ions and electrons. They are bonded by the forces of attraction existing between Na+ and e-
Group one and two can form metallic or ionic bonds (ionic with non-metals).
Adding aqueous silver nitrate to an ethanolic solution of a haloalkane (not a fluoro-alkane though as the strength of the C-F is greater than that of the C-H or C-C bonds so it will not react under these conditions) will cause a silver halide to precipitate out.
First of all, the haloalkane reacts with and OH- group formed from the dissociation of H+ and OH- in water:
H20 ----> OH- + H+
The OH- group is a nucleophile, and attacks the C of the polar C-X bond (C is delta +ve and X delta -ve. Iodoalknaes are an exception, but still react by this mechanism).
The halide (X-) becomes the leaving group (leaves the haloalkane), having been replaced by OH-. This is nucleophilic substitution.
The displaced halide the reacts with Ag+ (from the dissociation of AgNO3 into its constituent ions) to form a silver halide; this precipitates out, as it is an insoluble ionic solid.
The hydrolysis is the rate-determining step here....but tbh I cbb to go into any detail lol.
As for OILRIG, there are plenty of decent websites that could explain that much better than I could (the same is true for the other two problems really).
Chem is much much easier at A" btw, once you've learned all these mechanisms etc!
Adding aqueous silver nitrate to an ethanolic solution of a haloalkane (not a fluoro-alkane though as the strength of the C-F is greater than that of the C-H or C-C bonds so it will not react under these conditions) will cause a silver halide to precipitate out.
First of all, the haloalkane reacts with and OH- group formed from the dissociation of H+ and OH- in water:
H20 ----> OH- + H+
The OH- group is a nucleophile, and attacks the C of the polar C-X bond (C is delta +ve and X delta -ve. Iodoalknaes are an exception, but still react by this mechanism).
The halide (X-) becomes the leaving group (leaves the haloalkane), having been replaced by OH-. This is nucleophilic substitution.
The displaced halide the reacts with Ag+ (from the dissociation of AgNO3 into its constituent ions) to form a silver halide; this precipitates out, as it is an insoluble ionic solid.
The hydrolysis is the rate-determining step here....but tbh I cbb to go into any detail lol.
As for OILRIG, there are plenty of decent websites that could explain that much better than I could (the same is true for the other two problems really).
Chem is much much easier at A" btw, once you've learned all these mechanisms etc!
Thanks for the replies. I'm sorry Matilla but i have no idea what your on about. No offence.
TBS
TBS
![Avatar for [mellifluous]](https://static.thestudentroom.co.uk/forum/customavatars/avatar61130_2.gif){kind=avatar}
Don't worry about what Matilla is saying, north_bank_gooner has the right level of complexity for AS.
Matilla is talking about the use of silver nitrate in identifying the halogens in organic compounds (i.e. halogenoalkanes), which I think comes up at AS in the organic unit, but you don't need to know all the mechanisms that Matilla is explaining (very well though!) until A2 at least.
I think you're just worried about the inorganic use of silver nitrate (?), so basically all you need to know is that it's used to identify whether there are halide ions** (Cl-, I-, Br-) in a solution. You just add silver nitrate and bingo, you get either a white, cream or yellow precipitate or nothing at all (white = chloride is present in the solution, cream = bromide, yellow = iodide, nothing = there were no halide ions in the original solution). The precipitate is silver halide (i.i silver chloride, bromide or iodide depending on the colour and what ions you ahd in the orginal solution).
So, if you are given an unknown solution, one test you could carry out would be adding silver nitrate to a sample of it to see if there are halide ions present in it. It's as simple as this!
I hope this is of some use
xxx
** NOT chlorine, iodine or bromine atoms as north_bank_gonner says
Matilla is talking about the use of silver nitrate in identifying the halogens in organic compounds (i.e. halogenoalkanes), which I think comes up at AS in the organic unit, but you don't need to know all the mechanisms that Matilla is explaining (very well though!) until A2 at least.
I think you're just worried about the inorganic use of silver nitrate (?), so basically all you need to know is that it's used to identify whether there are halide ions** (Cl-, I-, Br-) in a solution. You just add silver nitrate and bingo, you get either a white, cream or yellow precipitate or nothing at all (white = chloride is present in the solution, cream = bromide, yellow = iodide, nothing = there were no halide ions in the original solution). The precipitate is silver halide (i.i silver chloride, bromide or iodide depending on the colour and what ions you ahd in the orginal solution).
So, if you are given an unknown solution, one test you could carry out would be adding silver nitrate to a sample of it to see if there are halide ions present in it. It's as simple as this!
I hope this is of some use
xxx
** NOT chlorine, iodine or bromine atoms as north_bank_gonner says
Don't worry - Chemistry hates me too! Biggest mistake of my life!
I have four questions which i would like to ask and i'd be grateful if you could answer them.
First one involves Halogens - Hate them! lol. I just don't understand what the whole thing is? What are we trying to work out? Why do we add silver nitrate? What are the colours of the halogens before added? I don't understand them at all.
What are you on about? halogens just means elements in group 7, I never add silver nitrate to those, but maybe thats just me
Secondly, does anyone know all the names for the different structures such as giant ionic lattice etc. and where does giant molecular come in - just diamond and graphite?
Well,, you basically have:
-metallic (giant) which is metals bonding together, by just shoving off electrons, but keeping to them because of their charges, but then the electrons can therefore move freely. Its basically oen big mess, which is why it is easily mallable and conducts electricity.
-Ionic, think it can be both, as you get huge lattices of NaCl (salt), but you can have gasious compounds which keep in molecules containing just 2 atoms.
-Covalent can be giant (diamonds, but also sand (sillicon dioxide)) and molecular. They do not (almost always) conduct electricity, and many of these are gasses at room temprature
Thirdly, may someone explain what it means by something is the oxidising agen. I understand oxidation and reduction in terms of electrons "OILRIG" but i don't understand that a certain element is the oxidising or reducing agent.
oxidizing is when one atom gains electrons and one loses electrons. the one losing electrons (gaining charge) is being oxidized, and the one losing charge (gaining electrons) is the oxidizing agent. Reduction is the exact opposite.
Finally, i always thought group 1 and 2 formed ionic bonds so do they form metallic ones to?
All metals form metallic bonds
PM me with any questions left
First one involves Halogens - Hate them! lol. I just don't understand what the whole thing is? What are we trying to work out? Why do we add silver nitrate? What are the colours of the halogens before added? I don't understand them at all.
What are you on about? halogens just means elements in group 7, I never add silver nitrate to those, but maybe thats just me
Secondly, does anyone know all the names for the different structures such as giant ionic lattice etc. and where does giant molecular come in - just diamond and graphite?
Well,, you basically have:
-metallic (giant) which is metals bonding together, by just shoving off electrons, but keeping to them because of their charges, but then the electrons can therefore move freely. Its basically oen big mess, which is why it is easily mallable and conducts electricity.
-Ionic, think it can be both, as you get huge lattices of NaCl (salt), but you can have gasious compounds which keep in molecules containing just 2 atoms.
-Covalent can be giant (diamonds, but also sand (sillicon dioxide)) and molecular. They do not (almost always) conduct electricity, and many of these are gasses at room temprature
Thirdly, may someone explain what it means by something is the oxidising agen. I understand oxidation and reduction in terms of electrons "OILRIG" but i don't understand that a certain element is the oxidising or reducing agent.
oxidizing is when one atom gains electrons and one loses electrons. the one losing electrons (gaining charge) is being oxidized, and the one losing charge (gaining electrons) is the oxidizing agent. Reduction is the exact opposite.
Finally, i always thought group 1 and 2 formed ionic bonds so do they form metallic ones to?
All metals form metallic bonds
PM me with any questions left
monagro
oxidizing is when one atom gains electrons and one loses electrons.* the one losing electrons (gaining charge) is being oxidized, and the one losing charge (gaining electrons) is the oxidizing agent. Reduction is the exact opposite.**
oxidizing is when one atom gains electrons and one loses electrons.* the one losing electrons (gaining charge) is being oxidized, and the one losing charge (gaining electrons) is the oxidizing agent. Reduction is the exact opposite.**
*This is not strictly true!
REDOX is when one thing gains electrons and another loses them in a reaction, but these things don't have to be atoms Using accurate terminology is essential!
**This is mostly right but please don't write 'gaining charge' in the exam to explain oxidisation! The charge changes in both reduction and oxidation as they are the loss and gain respectively of neagtively charged electrons.
The oxidising agent is the substance in the reaction which causes something else to be oxidised i.e. it forces the electrons from that other thing onto itself. Hence the thing being oxidised loses electrons and the oxidising agent is itself reduced.
The reducing agent does the opposite: it loses electrons and so forces something else to take them up, and so this thing is reduced, and the reducing agent is itself oxidised.
monagro
All metals form metallic bonds
All metals form metallic bonds
This is true, but they can also form ionic bonds!
Metals have metallic bonding with themselves. i.e. if you have a lump of sodium, each Na+ ion in it is metallically bonded to the others. The metallic bond is the electrostatic attraction between the ions in the metal and the sea of electrons which surrounds them (these are called delocalised electrons).
BUT they have ionic bonding with non-metals.
E.g. sodium chloride is a metal (sodium) and non metal (chlorine). The structure is a giant lattice held together by strong ionic bonds, which are the eloectrostatic attractions between the metal ions and non-metal ions. As you can see, this is distinctly separate from metallic bonding, although they are both electrostatic attractions.
In fact, you will learn later that the view of 'ionic bonds' and 'covalent bonds' etc as being separate entities is very idealised, all bonds in fact show different degrees of covalency and ionic character. e.g. NaCl is mostly ionic, as explained above, but is also to some extent covalent.
But don't worry about this just yet, get the first bit clear in your head!
Hope this helps
xxx
Thanks ever so much for taking the time out and effort to reply - means alot. So let me try and get this into perspective.
Halogens - we are given 3 main halogens (Chlorine, Bromine and Iodine). So in this equation: 2NaBr + Cl2 --> 2NaCl + Br2
Without the spectator ions (Na) we get the ionic equation =
Ionic equation = 2Br- + Cl2 --> 2Cl- + Br2
Then does this mean - Chlorine will displace the bromide ion in 2NaBr as it is lower in the group forming a brown solution??? Then do you add silver nitrate to the 2Cl- and you will get a white precipitate?
God this is hard! Please tell me if i am wrong.
Thanks, take care- TBS
Halogens - we are given 3 main halogens (Chlorine, Bromine and Iodine). So in this equation: 2NaBr + Cl2 --> 2NaCl + Br2
Without the spectator ions (Na) we get the ionic equation =
Ionic equation = 2Br- + Cl2 --> 2Cl- + Br2
Then does this mean - Chlorine will displace the bromide ion in 2NaBr as it is lower in the group forming a brown solution??? Then do you add silver nitrate to the 2Cl- and you will get a white precipitate?
God this is hard! Please tell me if i am wrong.
Thanks, take care- TBS
Now you are confusing me!
You are mixing up two things here, dispacement reactions of halogens and the reaction of halide ions with silver nitrate.
So yes, if you add chlorine to sodium bromide you would get bromine and sodium chloride as in the equation you have. The solution would go more brown. This is a displacement reaction as you said.
You don't then have to add silver nitrate, as you imply, though you could. And yes, you would get a white precipitate becasue the solution of the products from the first reaction contains chloride ions, and silver nitrate is a test for halide ions.
So yes you're all right, but just a bit confused about what the point of each thing is I think. When you learn stuff, try to get it clear in your head as a topic on its own and what it actually means, and this might help
xxx
You are mixing up two things here, dispacement reactions of halogens and the reaction of halide ions with silver nitrate.
So yes, if you add chlorine to sodium bromide you would get bromine and sodium chloride as in the equation you have. The solution would go more brown. This is a displacement reaction as you said.
You don't then have to add silver nitrate, as you imply, though you could. And yes, you would get a white precipitate becasue the solution of the products from the first reaction contains chloride ions, and silver nitrate is a test for halide ions.
So yes you're all right, but just a bit confused about what the point of each thing is I think. When you learn stuff, try to get it clear in your head as a topic on its own and what it actually means, and this might help
xxx
So sorry for confusing you. I've been taught for my exam to learn the displacement reactions. Then to add the silver ions (silver nitrate) to the solution to test for the halides so silver chloride (white), silver bromide (cream) and silver iodide (pale yellow). Then take it a step further to add ammonia to distinguish between silver bromide and iodide in colour where 1 dissolves and the other doesn't. Is this correct?
For the displacement reactions do i need to know the redox reactions?
Many thanks, take care,
TBS
For the displacement reactions do i need to know the redox reactions?
Many thanks, take care,
TBS
Yep that's right, its good to be sure in a practical exam, but they tell you what to do, step by step, don't worry!
Silver Chloride is soluble in dilute ammonia (and therefore conc. as well)
silver bromide is soluble in dilute ammonia only (not in conc)
silver iodide is not soluble in either conc or dilute ammonia.
I don't know what you need to know about the redox reactions, but they're pretty easy really, you got it pretty well on the post before.
xxx
Silver Chloride is soluble in dilute ammonia (and therefore conc. as well)
silver bromide is soluble in dilute ammonia only (not in conc)
silver iodide is not soluble in either conc or dilute ammonia.
I don't know what you need to know about the redox reactions, but they're pretty easy really, you got it pretty well on the post before.
xxx
Inside
I did my chem a-level a couple of years ago and, I'm sorry to say, I can't explain any of that to you. Good luck!
so then why post
[QUOTE='[mellifluous]']
*This is not strictly true!
REDOX is when one thing gains electrons and another loses them in a reaction, but these things don't have to be atoms Using accurate terminology is essential!
**This is mostly right but please don't write 'gaining charge' in the exam to explain oxidisation! The charge changes in both reduction and oxidation as they are the loss and gain respectively of neagtively charged electrons.
The oxidising agent is the substance in the reaction which causes something else to be oxidised i.e. it forces the electrons from that other thing onto itself. Hence the thing being oxidised loses electrons and the oxidising agent is itself reduced.
The reducing agent does the opposite: it loses electrons and so forces something else to take them up, and so this thing is reduced, and the reducing agent is itself oxidised.
This is true, but they can also form ionic bonds!
Metals have metallic bonding with themselves. i.e. if you have a lump of sodium, each Na+ ion in it is metallically bonded to the others. The metallic bond is the electrostatic attraction between the ions in the metal and the sea of electrons which surrounds them (these are called delocalised electrons).
BUT they have ionic bonding with non-metals.
E.g. sodium chloride is a metal (sodium) and non metal (chlorine). The structure is a giant lattice held together by strong ionic bonds, which are the eloectrostatic attractions between the metal ions and non-metal ions. As you can see, this is distinctly separate from metallic bonding, although they are both electrostatic attractions.
In fact, you will learn later that the view of 'ionic bonds' and 'covalent bonds' etc as being separate entities is very idealised, all bonds in fact show different degrees of covalency and ionic character. e.g. NaCl is mostly ionic, as explained above, but is also to some extent covalent.
But don't worry about this just yet, get the first bit clear in your head!
Hope this helps
xxx
You mean an oxidizing agent doesn't have to be atoms? That's true, but in the end, the thing causing oxidization and reduction is the change of charge of the individual atoms. I don't understand what's wrong with "gaining charge" though, at that is exactly what the loss of electrons is. Losing charge reduces the charge, which is even what the word reduction comes from.
Btw, Im doing IB chem SL, so I don't know about things being partly covalent and partly ionic, but I'd guess that F2 is purely covalent. Metals bond metallically when they bond to metals of course, they bond ionically when they bond with elements further down the table, usually non-metals, but also some metals very far away. Covalent is between non-metals.
*This is not strictly true!
REDOX is when one thing gains electrons and another loses them in a reaction, but these things don't have to be atoms Using accurate terminology is essential!
**This is mostly right but please don't write 'gaining charge' in the exam to explain oxidisation! The charge changes in both reduction and oxidation as they are the loss and gain respectively of neagtively charged electrons.
The oxidising agent is the substance in the reaction which causes something else to be oxidised i.e. it forces the electrons from that other thing onto itself. Hence the thing being oxidised loses electrons and the oxidising agent is itself reduced.
The reducing agent does the opposite: it loses electrons and so forces something else to take them up, and so this thing is reduced, and the reducing agent is itself oxidised.
This is true, but they can also form ionic bonds!
Metals have metallic bonding with themselves. i.e. if you have a lump of sodium, each Na+ ion in it is metallically bonded to the others. The metallic bond is the electrostatic attraction between the ions in the metal and the sea of electrons which surrounds them (these are called delocalised electrons).
BUT they have ionic bonding with non-metals.
E.g. sodium chloride is a metal (sodium) and non metal (chlorine). The structure is a giant lattice held together by strong ionic bonds, which are the eloectrostatic attractions between the metal ions and non-metal ions. As you can see, this is distinctly separate from metallic bonding, although they are both electrostatic attractions.
In fact, you will learn later that the view of 'ionic bonds' and 'covalent bonds' etc as being separate entities is very idealised, all bonds in fact show different degrees of covalency and ionic character. e.g. NaCl is mostly ionic, as explained above, but is also to some extent covalent.
But don't worry about this just yet, get the first bit clear in your head!
Hope this helps
xxx
You mean an oxidizing agent doesn't have to be atoms? That's true, but in the end, the thing causing oxidization and reduction is the change of charge of the individual atoms. I don't understand what's wrong with "gaining charge" though, at that is exactly what the loss of electrons is. Losing charge reduces the charge, which is even what the word reduction comes from.
Btw, Im doing IB chem SL, so I don't know about things being partly covalent and partly ionic, but I'd guess that F2 is purely covalent. Metals bond metallically when they bond to metals of course, they bond ionically when they bond with elements further down the table, usually non-metals, but also some metals very far away. Covalent is between non-metals.
monagro
I don't understand what's wrong with "gaining charge" though, at that is exactly what the loss of electrons is. Losing charge reduces the charge, which is even what the word reduction comes from.
Well I wasn't meaning to be really critical, which I realise my post sounded! Sorry!
Basically, I thought 'gaining charge' wasn't the best terminology because you don't specify whether the gain in charge is positive or negative. If I was an examiner and you had written 'reduction is a gain in charge', it is doubtful whether you really understand unless you go on to say 'by losing negative electrons' or something similar. After all it would be possible for something neutral to 'gain charge' by losing an electron - it would become positive - and this is most certainly not reduction.
I hope this clears up my thinking!
xxx
Sorry to keep posting but i have 4 more questions i'd like to ask.
1) Why does the molecule HOCL have the same bond shape and angles as Water? So it is V-Shaped and has 104.5 degree angle but how do we know this?
2) In terms of halogens i don't understand this equation:
Cl2 + 2Br- -->2Cl- +Br2 Why is it on the left the ion is Br-? and the same for chlorine Cl-? Are these the ions? I don't get it lol.
3)Why in this: Cl2 + 2OH- --> OCl- + Cl- +H20 = why is OCl- oxidised to form +1? and why is Cl- reduced to form -1?
4) Why in Ca(OH)2 is the electronic configuration - 1s2, 2s2, 2p6, 3s2, 3p6 - i thought u added Ca+(O+H) x2 electrons together to give electronic config?
My God! I'm getting real stressed now - i really don't know anything to do with chemistry!! I know that i will get a U! is organic chemistry many times harder than this?
I've just done 3 past papers for foundation chemistry and got 1 E and 2 U's!!!
Thanks - TBS
1) Why does the molecule HOCL have the same bond shape and angles as Water? So it is V-Shaped and has 104.5 degree angle but how do we know this?
2) In terms of halogens i don't understand this equation:
Cl2 + 2Br- -->2Cl- +Br2 Why is it on the left the ion is Br-? and the same for chlorine Cl-? Are these the ions? I don't get it lol.
3)Why in this: Cl2 + 2OH- --> OCl- + Cl- +H20 = why is OCl- oxidised to form +1? and why is Cl- reduced to form -1?
4) Why in Ca(OH)2 is the electronic configuration - 1s2, 2s2, 2p6, 3s2, 3p6 - i thought u added Ca+(O+H) x2 electrons together to give electronic config?
My God! I'm getting real stressed now - i really don't know anything to do with chemistry!! I know that i will get a U! is organic chemistry many times harder than this?
I've just done 3 past papers for foundation chemistry and got 1 E and 2 U's!!! Thanks - TBS
no, organic chemistry i found MUCH easier becasue you just have to learn it and thats that. Yes, tehre's loads of reactions to learn but its very do-able. The inorganic stuff I found much more theoretical.
I'll try to answer the other quesions later when i have more time, but after a quick glance, for number 1 try drawing out a dot and cross diagram for the molecule, i'm guessing there will be two lone pairs and two bonds like water, giving the 104.5 angle.
xxx
I'll try to answer the other quesions later when i have more time, but after a quick glance, for number 1 try drawing out a dot and cross diagram for the molecule, i'm guessing there will be two lone pairs and two bonds like water, giving the 104.5 angle.
xxx
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