The Student Room Group

Another rape/sexual harassment case collapses

In the wake of several recent rape trials collapsing due to the failure of the Crown Prosecution Service to disclose exculpatory evidence to the defence, we've had another case today with similar characteristics.

Mr Valentin Krzyzyk is a French businessman who was accused of groping a woman in a nightclub and calling her a "thot" (apparently this means "that ho over there"). He was duly charged with this offence and it went to trial. The woman gave evidence claiming she was distraught after this beastly man harassed her thusly.

It turns out there was CCTV evidence, and it was only provided to the defence on the first day of trial. Mr Krzyzyk's barrister, Ms Narita Bahra, stayed up late into the night to watch all five hours of the footage.

It turns out that after the alleged incident, which is not apparent from the CCTV, the woman continued to drink and happily chat away (even though she claimed she was in tears). All the CCTV shows is the woman happily chatting away and then she walks over to the doormen, points out the defendant and then they went up to him and dragged him out of the club.

The defendant said he made no contact with the complainant at all, other than shooing her away when she (no friend of his and not part of his group) came up to his table and took some of his champagne without asking.

I think I now know what happened. This woman, no doubt with a massive sense of entitlement, went up to his table and tried to snatch some champagne. She expected he should just accede to this because... I don't know why. He shooed her away. She felt furious with this "slight" and then went to the doormen and falsely accused him.

She then gave perjured evidence in court.

The police should be seriously looking into whether this woman perverted the course of justice, and whether she should be charged.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/02/judge-criticises-prosecutors-another-blunder-sex-case/
If I was prime minister she would be shot at dawn!
Original post by JavaScriptMaster
If I was prime minister she would be shot at dawn!


Well, I wouldn't quite go that far and I think rhetoric of that sort is unhelpful.

But there absolutely has to be a change in the way the CPS deals with these cases. It's simply not good enough to take a "relaxed" and indifferent approach to evidence that could prove the innocence of defendants. It's not good enough to have an attitude that says all "victims" must be believed without question, and that the risk of convicting innocent men is worth it
I understand that a "not guilty" verdict in such a case does not mean that the accuser was deliberately lying.

But surely the CCTV footage in this case actually could provide support to the assertion that she deliberately falsely accused the individual?
Original post by Chief Wiggum
I understand that a "not guilty" verdict in such a case does not mean that the accuser was deliberately lying.

But surely the CCTV footage in this case actually could provide support to the assertion that she deliberately falsely accused the individual?


Absolutely. There are some extremists who claim that if any man is acquitted of rape, the woman should automatically be charged with perjury and perverting the course of justice.

But as you say, acquittal does not axiomatically mean the complainant was lying. There are many reasons why the defendant might be acquitted; rape is inherently difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt because very often it comes down to one person's word against the other. There is no extrinsic evidence and the only two people present were the complainant and the defendant.

However, in this case I believe the CCTV footage would allow a jury to infer that it was a planned and deliberate false accusation. She's happily chatting away and laughing and flicking her hair around, and then she goes up to the bouncers and has the defendant dragged out and kicked to the curb. I think it demonstrates a degree of malevolence consistent with false accusation.

I would bet that if they got a warrant to pull her text messages and internet browsing data, they could find good evidence to indicate one way or the other.

At the very least, the police will be (or should be) wary in future about any such allegations by this woman.
(edited 6 years ago)
I am not saying it is the case here, but I often find that people assume because the complainant did not act as they would it must mean the complainant was lying. I find this reasoning offensive.

I repeat I am not saying this is what this post is about. But I think we must all be careful of jumping to assumptions or indeed presumptions, when you personally weren't there.
Original post by Notorious_B.I.G.
I am not saying it is the case here, but I often find that people assume because the complainant did not act as they would it must mean the complainant was lying. I find this reasoning offensive.

I repeat I am not saying this is what this post is about. But I think we must all be careful of jumping to assumptions or indeed presumptions, when you personally weren't there.


Of course. The mere fact she was laughing and chatting away is not evidence it did not occur.

But it is completely contrary to the evidence she gave under oath. Now I know people will say, "Memory is completely unreliable. Maybe she convinced herself she was hysterical and crying". Perhaps.

But I believe the evidence we do have is enough to trigger an investigation as to whether perjury has occurred.
Please note unless she is charged and convicted , which going on past cases is unlikely, she will not form part of of the 2% of cases the feminist admit are false allegations.
Most cases even high profile ones in the media like this do not form part of the 2% as they not followed up by prosecution.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by AlexanderHam
Of course. The mere fact she was laughing and chatting away is not evidence it did not occur.

But it is completely contrary to the evidence she gave under oath. Now I know people will say, "Memory is completely unreliable. Maybe she convinced herself she was hysterical and crying". Perhaps.

But I believe the evidence we do have is enough to trigger an investigation as to whether perjury has occurred.


A man would never given given the benefit of the doubt in the way you've outlined there.
Interesting that the jury reached a majority verdict, so at least one member of the jury still believed that he was guilty.
The police must have thought they had enough evidence for a reasonable chance of conviction, then found the CCTV and the CPS tried to suppress it. Yes the accuser was probably making things up, but what is for certain is the CPS tried to convict someone they probably thought was innocent because they'd seen the CCTV, and also tried to suppress it for long enough that the defence couldn't use but but also release it 'just in time' so the defence couldn't say they didn't get to see it.

Put the accuser on trial for perjury as it looks very likely she did so. But also investigate the CPS with a view to disbarring anyone involved in trying to frame the accused.
Original post by CurlyBen
Interesting that the jury reached a majority verdict, so at least one member of the jury still believed that he was guilty.


I'm not sure what we can infer from that, other than that there's a sucker born every minute.
Original post by ThomH97
The police must have thought they had enough evidence for a reasonable chance of conviction, then found the CCTV and the CPS tried to suppress it. Yes the accuser was probably making things up, but what is for certain is the CPS tried to convict someone they probably thought was innocent because they'd seen the CCTV, and also tried to suppress it for long enough that the defence couldn't use but but also release it 'just in time' so the defence couldn't say they didn't get to see it.

Put the accuser on trial for perjury as it looks very likely she did so. But also investigate the CPS with a view to disbarring anyone involved in trying to frame the accused.


I would give them the benefit of the doubt insofar as the alleging they knew he was innocent and deliberately chose to prosecute him. I simply do not believe they would do that.

But I believe they believed he was guilty and had an extremely casual and "relaxed" attitude when it came to ensuring that he was given proper consideration in terms of his possible innocence and exculpatory evidence. They thought that the ends justified the means.

The thing is, the CPS are prosecutors but, unlike every other party in every other type of legal proceedings, they have to take into account the interests of both parties. The CPS are not supposed to have a prosecution mindset, they are supposed to look at things objectively and in the round, and be just as concerned with protecting innocent defendants as they are prosecuting guilty criminals.
Original post by AlexanderHam
I would give them the benefit of the doubt insofar as the alleging they knew he was innocent and deliberately chose to prosecute him. I simply do not believe they would do that.

But I believe they believed he was guilty and had an extremely casual and "relaxed" attitude when it came to ensuring that he was given proper consideration in terms of his possible innocence and exculpatory evidence. They thought that the ends justified the means.

The thing is, the CPS are prosecutors but, unlike every other party in every other type of legal proceedings, they have to take into account the interests of both parties. The CPS are not supposed to have a prosecution mindset, they are supposed to look at things objectively and in the round, and be just as concerned with protecting innocent defendants as they are prosecuting guilty criminals.


You don't think it was a cover up? The first thing they do is ask if there were any witnesses, and then go interview/get CCTV. If there were no witnesses and no evidence of harm except an allegation, they should not prosecute. However, given they did decide to prosecute, they must have had some evidence, and presumably it was in contradiction to the CCTV hence they chose to suppress it

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