ID required to vote? Watch

z-hog
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Plans to make all UK voters prove their identity will "disproportionately" discriminate against ethnic minorities, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has said.

The government outlined plans in the Queen's speech on Monday to require people to bring photo ID to polling stations in order to vote.

Mr Corbyn claimed the move was an attempt to "suppress voters" and "rig" the next general election result.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...psQLPSyrIBV-qc

Never mind the racist and sexist agitating by Corbyn and his bunch of deplorables, that's all they're good for. Totally in favour of the idea, there isn't anything to make it a bad one. Just do it and tighten the scope for fraud with postal-voting too, even the Electoral Commission has described our electoral system as safe as that of the nearest Banana Republic. Of course Corbyn wants it that way, all lefties do.
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Drewski
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(Original post by z-hog)
Totally in favour of the idea, there isn't anything to make it a bad one. Just do it and tighten the scope for fraud with postal-voting too, even the Electoral Commission has described our electoral system as safe as that of the nearest Banana Republic. Of course Corbyn wants it that way, all lefties do.
Why spend money fixing a problem that doesn't exist?

Where there have been cases of fraud in UK elections (nobody will suggest there hasn't been), about 99.9% of cases are in postal voting, something this measure will have no effect on.

All it will do is drive down turnout at a time when voter engagement is at its lowest.

We've got better things to spend money on.
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fallen_acorns
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If they can demonstrate that voter fraud is a problem..sure go ahead.

But obviosuly it shouldn't be done, unless there is justification to do so. Just apealing to 'modernising' and 'creating a system for the 21st century' doesn't really work.

Obviously its party-political though. The torries know this will help them massivly, just as the left know that their idea to give voting rights to non-citizens or under 18s will help them. All of them have moral reasons underneath, but are just being pushed for power.
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Blue_Cow
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Why Corbyn had to mention ethnic minorities as a reason I have no idea. Just undermines his objections against voter ID (as demonstrated by the OP).
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DSilva
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(Original post by z-hog)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...psQLPSyrIBV-qc

Never mind the racist and sexist agitating by Corbyn and his bunch of deplorables, that's all they're good for. Totally in favour of the idea, there isn't anything to make it a bad one. Just do it and tighten the scope for fraud with postal-voting too, even the Electoral Commission has described our electoral system as safe as that of the nearest Banana Republic. Of course Corbyn wants it that way, all lefties do.
You come across as rather angry much of the time. Chill.

It's perfectly possible to amicably debate a topic.

As for voter ID, there is no evidence that there is a problem so why spend money on fixing something that isn't broken?
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z-hog
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(Original post by DSilva)
As for voter ID, there is no evidence that there is a problem so why spend money on fixing something that isn't broken?
You and the rest saying 'there is no problem' don't actually know whether there is one or not, so I'm tempted to take it beyond that simplistic plateau. What non-lefties see is the loophole allowing the abuse of the system and with the vastly increased scope for it added by the expansion of Postal Voting we simply don't want the system becoming even more open to fraud. Whether there is a problem is not the full ticket, it is that non-lefties don't want it open to abuse by unscrupulous merchants, particularly in marginal seats where the one vote can make all the difference. Many Uni students voted twice at the last, that has to be dealt with too even if to the annoyance of lefties like Corbyn.

Photo ID is required to vote in NI, presumably because they had a problem there and we can understand how the atmosphere can be conducive to that. The higher the stakes, the more strongly people will feel about them and prepared to do something. So us on the right would like to see this potential means of fraud closed down so we will never have a problem, if that makes any sense. It's no big deal, most people in the world have to prove who they are when voting through some for of identification, we used to have Polling Cards for that effect.

Of course, the idea was even more to expose Corbyn and his leftist rabble for what they are when they come out shouting Racist and Sexist at everyone wanting to close down the filthy alleys through which they run. He doesn't worry about fraud in the system for obvious reasons, we get that. Nor do you, come to think of it.
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DSilva
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(Original post by z-hog)
You and the rest saying 'there is no problem' don't actually know whether there is one or not, so I'm tempted to take it beyond that simplistic plateau. What non-lefties see is the loophole allowing the abuse of the system and with the vastly increased scope for it added by the expansion of Postal Voting we simply don't want the system becoming even more open to fraud. Whether there is a problem is not the full ticket, it is that non-lefties don't want it open to abuse by unscrupulous merchants, particularly in marginal seats where the one vote can make all the difference. Many Uni students voted twice at the last, that has to be dealt with too even if to the annoyance of lefties like Corbyn.

Photo ID is required to vote in NI, presumably because they had a problem there and we can understand how the atmosphere can be conducive to that. The higher the stakes, the more strongly people will feel about them and prepared to do something. So us on the right would like to see this potential means of fraud closed down so we will never have a problem, if that makes any sense. It's no big deal, most people in the world have to prove who they are when voting through some for of identification, we used to have Polling Cards for that effect.

Of course, the idea was even more to expose Corbyn and his leftist rabble for what they are when they come out shouting Racist and Sexist at everyone wanting to close down the filthy alleys through which they run. He doesn't worry about fraud in the system for obvious reasons, we get that. Nor do you, come to think of it.
Again, chill. We can debate a topic in good faith without reserting to anger.

I'm open minded on this if you are able to present clear evidence that voter fraud is a problem. Do you have any actual evidence of this?

Where is your evidence that many university students voted twice?
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Drewski
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(Original post by z-hog)
Many Uni students voted twice at the last
[Citation needed]
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z-hog
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(Original post by DSilva)
I'm open minded on this if you are able to present clear evidence that voter fraud is a problem. Do you have any actual evidence of this?

Where is your evidence that many university students voted twice?
One day when you buy a place to live, are you going to wait for it to burn down before insuring it? You have no evidence that it will ever burn, after all. i don't know how many cases of misrepresentation there are at the moment, what I and the Electoral Commission look at is the potential for fraud to take place in the system and what can be done to preserve its integrity. It's hardly controversial to us, only those indifferent have a problem.

We heard cases of Uni students taking advantage of the double voting opportunity in here, plus reports in the media. As a representative sample, we can conclude there were enough cases to merit intervention by the EC. Nobody knows how many such cases take place, we don't hear about the unreported ones. The ones we know of are the evidence for it to be happening on a wider scale, that's all we need to know.

Your line is that there's no need to worry about anything because there are 'few' cases of voting fraud, mine is that such few cases mustn't be allowed to flourish and to wait for it to happen in order to do something about it is not the best way to preserve the integrity of the system. What I see is a growing number of people who will think nothing of subverting it if only they can get away with it, the ER and Momentum types to begin with. Democracy is not their bag, never was and never will be.
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z-hog
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(Original post by Drewski)
[Citation needed]
We heard cases of Uni students taking advantage of the double voting opportunity in here, plus reports in the media. As a representative sample, we can conclude there were enough cases to merit intervention by the EC. Nobody knows how many such cases take place, we don't hear about the unreported ones. The ones we know of are the evidence for it to be happening on a wider scale, that's all we need to know.
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Drewski
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(Original post by z-hog)
We heard cases of Uni students taking advantage of the double voting opportunity in here, plus reports in the media. As a representative sample, we can conclude there were enough cases to merit intervention by the EC. Nobody knows how many such cases take place, we don't hear about the unreported ones. The ones we know of are the evidence for it to be happening on a wider scale, that's all we need to know.
And how is requiring ID going to stop that? A uni student will have it.

Let's say I want to vote twice, once in my home constituency, once in my uni constituency.
I'm not required to take my voting card with me, I just have to turn up at the polling place, with ID, and tick a box on a piece of paper. There are no centralised records of who's done what. And I have the whole day to do it. There are pretty much no two places in the country that I couldn't get between in a day.

And let's not pretend that this will do anything to stop postal voter fraud that we know happens and isn't being looked at.

Maintaining voter security is important, sure. And I'm all for guaranteeing that ballots take place fairly and securely. But this bill won't stop that and will just cost money for no output.

I'm a Yorkshireman. I only spend money when I actually get something at the end of it.
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DSilva
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(Original post by z-hog)
One day when you buy a place to live, are you going to wait for it to burn down before insuring it? You have no evidence that it will ever burn, after all. i don't know how many cases of misrepresentation there are at the moment, what I and the Electoral Commission look at is the potential for fraud to take place in the system and what can be done to preserve its integrity. It's hardly controversial to us, only those indifferent have a problem.

We heard cases of Uni students taking advantage of the double voting opportunity in here, plus reports in the media. As a representative sample, we can conclude there were enough cases to merit intervention by the EC. Nobody knows how many such cases take place, we don't hear about the unreported ones. The ones we know of are the evidence for it to be happening on a wider scale, that's all we need to know.

Your line is that there's no need to worry about anything because there are 'few' cases of voting fraud, mine is that such few cases mustn't be allowed to flourish and to wait for it to happen in order to do something about it is not the best way to preserve the integrity of the system. What I see is a growing number of people who will think nothing of subverting it if only they can get away with it, the ER and Momentum types to begin with. Democracy is not their bag, never was and never will be.
But you haven't presented any clear evidence that there are instances of voter fraud. And since you're making an argument to introduce this, the onus is on you to provide evidence.

You're allowing your own party political views to cloud your judgment. Show me evidence of voter fraud happening and I'll agree with you. But if there's no problem, there's nothing to fix.

Conversely there are examples of people who were entitled to vote being denied a vote due to voter ID laws. There also exists the obvious issue of people who cannot afford ID.
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z-hog
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(Original post by Drewski)
Let's say I want to vote twice, once in my home constituency, once in my uni constituency.
I'm not required to take my voting card with me, I just have to turn up at the polling place, with ID, and tick a box on a piece of paper. There are no centralised records of who's done what. And I have the whole day to do it. There are pretty much no two places in the country that I couldn't get between in a day.

And let's not pretend that this will do anything to stop postal voter fraud that we know happens and isn't being looked at.
It's not the situation where ID will make a difference, it's just another example of loopholes in the system that can be abused as much as misrepresentation. The Electoral Commission are often themselves the first to call for measures to tighten the system, it's politicians that pick and choose the recommendations that suit them. The photo ID was not a Government idea, it was a suggestion by the Commission.
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z-hog
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(Original post by DSilva)
But you haven't presented any clear evidence that there are instances of voter fraud. And since you're making an argument to introduce this, the onus is on you to provide evidence.

You're allowing your own party political views to cloud your judgment. Show me evidence of voter fraud happening and I'll agree with you. But if there's no problem, there's nothing to fix.
You're like a stuck record on it now, think of it more like preventative action and perhaps it will make more sense. What 'party political views', you mean I'm only in favour because it's something by the Tories? You know very well there is evidence of voter fraud happening, it's the 'it's only a few cases' line again. Are you sure you're not letting your own party political views take over, that you're not resisting the idea only because it comes from the Tories?

[QUOTE[Conversely there are examples of people who were entitled to vote being denied a vote due to voter ID laws.[/QUOTE]

Evidence, please.

There also exists the obvious issue of people who cannot afford ID.
A bogus and diversionary issue, they're supposed to be dispensed at no cost to the voter. Don't drag women and black people into it like Corbyn, please.
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Miss Maddie
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I do believe widespread fraud takes place. It's easy to do. ID is a sensible move ensuring the people voting are who they say they are.
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DSilva
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(Original post by z-hog)
You're like a stuck record on it now, think of it more like preventative action and perhaps it will make more sense. What 'party political views', you mean I'm only in favour because it's something by the Tories? You know very well there is evidence of voter fraud happening, it's the 'it's only a few cases' line again. Are you sure you're not letting your own party political views take over, that you're not resisting the idea only because it comes from the Tories?

[QUOTE[Conversely there are examples of people who were entitled to vote being denied a vote due to voter ID laws.
Evidence, please.



A bogus and diversionary issue, they're supposed to be dispensed at no cost to the voter. Don't drag women and black people into it like Corbyn, please.
https://fullfact.org/crime/voter-id-2019/

I haven't 'dragged women of black people' into anything. I haven't mentioned Corbyn or the Tories. You have.

You can debate an issue amiably and in good faith without hurling abuse or suggesting improper motives at those who challenge your view.

You've stated there's a problem but again, you have provided no evidence to back that up. It's debating 101. If you're making a claim that this problem exists you simply have to provide the evidence.
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z-hog
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“Convictions for voter impersonation at last election: 1

People turned away in just 8 council areas in trials: 819”
So is that a problem or not? The fact that there was the single conviction shows that misrepresentation is possible and that it occurs, extrapolating from the micro-sample we can only assume that. We don't know or hear of any possible cases when it isn't detected, it's not possible to tell how much of it occurs but it can and does occur. If there's a hotly contested ward where every single vote counts, there may be more people inclined to exploit that possibility.

What is this 'evidence' you need to be convinced that it is a window to electoral fraud and that as such everything reasonable should be done to close it, at what point exactly does that need kick in? How many cases of voter impersonation would it take for the Electoral Commission to get off their backsides? All we are talking about is people having to somehow prove who they are when voting, with so many things in daily life where that is a requirement already it seems a bit unreasonable that it should be possible to vote without doing just that.
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z-hog
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(Original post by Blue_Cow)
Why Corbyn had to mention ethnic minorities as a reason I have no idea. Just undermines his objections against voter ID (as demonstrated by the OP).
Oh, that's an easy one. He wants to frighten ethnic minorities into believing the Tories are doing this to deprive them of their votes and that they do so because they are racist. I know, it's deplorable and intellectually contemptible but that's the way some politicians earn a living.
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DSilva
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(Original post by z-hog)
So is that a problem or not? The fact that there was the single conviction shows that misrepresentation is possible and that it occurs, extrapolating from the micro-sample we can only assume that. We don't know or hear of any possible cases when it isn't detected, it's not possible to tell how much of it occurs but it can and does occur. If there's a hotly contested ward where every single vote counts, there may be more people inclined to exploit that possibility.

What is this 'evidence' you need to be convinced that it is a window to electoral fraud and that as such everything reasonable should be done to close it, at what point exactly does that need kick in? How many cases of voter impersonation would it take for the Electoral Commission to get off their backsides? All we are talking about is people having to somehow prove who they are when voting, with so many things in daily life where that is a requirement already it seems a bit unreasonable that it should be possible to vote without doing just that.
1 conviction, compared to 819 people turned away.

You keep saying there are unknown cases, but that's just speculation unless your are able to provide objective evidence that people are voting twice. Where is your evidence that students are voting twice?

If there was a genuine problem I'd be all for the proposal. But there is no evidence there is an issue and it seems that the proposed solution is more likely to stop people who are allowed to vote from doing so.

It's trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
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londonmyst
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(Original post by Miss Maddie)
I do believe widespread fraud takes place. It's easy to do. ID is a sensible move ensuring the people voting are who they say they are.
Widespread fraudulent impersonation of legitimate voters at the polling stations does not take place in the uk.
The majority of electoral fraud involves either postal voting or students dishonestly choosing to double vote on election day.
Neither of which introducing mandatory photo id would resolve.

More police officers being allocated to electoral fraud investigations and harsher imprisonment sentences for those convicted of electoral fraud- these two measures would be a significant deterrent to the brazen criminals who do it.
Plus greatly increase the risk of being exposed for the more secretive criminal elements that often conspire with others to perpetuate electoral fraud by means of abusing postal voting usually connected with "the graveyard vote".
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