'Men's Rights' et al communities becoming more extreme

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Pinkisk
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#61
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#61
(Original post by adam271)
Worthy quote.
:womensoc:
I am already a member of my university's feminist society and much, much, much more than just that...but not for the reasons that most are members of such societies.
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Cryoraptor
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#62
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#62
(Original post by Joe312)
If you were denied the vote and made a second class citizen where you could be raped by your husband legally, how would you feel being called a self-entitled mentally insane terrorist for fighting against that?
They were self-entitled mentally insane terrorists. They were not fighting for the vote, or marriage equality. They were fighting because they were not okay in the head. If they had any sense, they would not do the things they did because that gave credibility to the idea that women were mentally inferior to men. They were essentially the equivalent of a modern-day troll: Hijacking a legitimate cause and making a giant mess of it to get attention.

SuffraGISTs on the other hand were fighting for the vote and marriage equality. That is the group of 1st wave feminists we should hold in high regard. Modern feminism holding suffragettes in high regard is a good indicator of how toxic is its.
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adam271
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#63
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#63
(Original post by Pinkisk)
I am already a member of my university's feminist society and much, much, much more than just that...but not for the reasons that most are members of such societies.
I'm still waiting for your view on male right groups.

I can't see how you can be in support of them as they are in many ways a mirror of feminism. You yourself have pointed out some of the similarities when defending them.
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Cryoraptor
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#64
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#64
(Original post by Joe312)
Fair enough but that's not relevant to the point I was making which was the reason feminists today celebrate the suffragettes was because of their attempt to secure women the vote, not because of their participation in the white feather campaign, as Pinkisk wrongly claimed.
Nice moving of the goalposts there. You said they are held in high regard because they did secure the vote, now you're saying they are held in high regard because they attempted to. You're on the retreat.
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Cryoraptor
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#65
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#65
(Original post by adam271)
I'm still waiting for your view on male right groups.

I can't see how you can be in support of them as they are in many ways a mirror of feminism. You yourself have pointed out some of the similarities when defending them.
I can't speak for them but I will speak for me because I know I will get targeted in this way as well.

Any group that acts in an equally toxic manner as 3rd wave feminism will also see my disapproval. You'll be happy to hear that includes some if not most of MGTOW and serious Incel cancer sites.

However, just like 3rd wave feminism, MGTOW has its levels. There are some that are just adopting the lifestyle and others that are complete AIDS. Incels not so much, they are almost entirely cancerous.
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Pinkisk
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#66
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#66
(Original post by adam271)
I'm still waiting for your view on male right groups.

I can't see how you can be in support of them as they are in many ways a mirror of feminism. You yourself have pointed out some of the similarities when defending them.
Feminism = a marxist communist ideology based on marxist, communist principles.
MRM = a random caucus composed of men and women from all walks of life, holding vastly contradicting personal ideological beliefs that are not linked to the MRM, fighting against homelessness, and fighting for father's rights, men's rights in marriage etc without any ideological affiliation whatsoever....They are opposed to each other. the MRM is entirely anti-marxist/communist.

MRM is unrelated to feminism in any way.

How are these two groups the mirror image of each other?
Last edited by Pinkisk; 1 month ago
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Joe312
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#67
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#67
(Original post by Pinkisk)
Should we perhaps start support Hitler because his scientists made advances in many areas of science? I would not support a group of people responsible for the deaths of thousands in anything that that they do....I would not erect statutes of them and write books about them glorifying their virtues. Again, you are defending feminism in something that you do not know anything about. You stated that feminism celebrates them for their securing women he right to vote....no they don't feminism celebrate the suffragettes all round for EVERYTHING THAT THEY DID....additionally, the suffragettes did not secure women the vote. That is a misconception and a falsehood....but one that is outside the scope of this debate.
This is completely irrelevant, maybe we shouldn't idolise the suffragettes, I don't care whether they were good people or not.

The point is their involvement in the white feather campaign had nothing to do with feminism and you've still failed to explain a link between feminist ideology and the white feather campaign.

Just because a feminist did something bad, that doesn't mean they did it because of feminism.

You say feminism celebrates the suffragettes for everything they did, then find me a link between feminist ideology and the white feather campaign.

If you can't explain that link, then you are going to have to admit that you have failed to show that they engaged in that campaign BECAUSE of feminism.

Just because a feminist did something bad, that doesn't mean they did it because of feminism. You have to actually explain the link between feminist ideology and the white feather campaign if you want to suggest that the suffragettes engaging in that campaign shows how bad feminism is.

Otherwise, you are just claiming that if a feminist did something bad, it must be because of feminism. That's a fallacy.

If you can't explain how feminist ideology links to the white feather campaign then please just give up, i'm not going to let you try and worm your way out of it.
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Joe312
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#68
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#68
(Original post by Cryoraptor)
Nice moving of the goalposts there. You said they are held in high regard because they did secure the vote, now you're saying they are held in high regard because they attempted to. You're on the retreat.
It can't be a retreat if the change made no difference to my argument. It doesn't matter for my argument whether they were held in high regard because they did secure the vote, or because they attempted to secure it. So don't pick up on things that don't matter to my argument as evidence that i'm on the retreat when you're only doing so to avoid my actual argument for which what you've pointed out makes no difference. You're on the retreat.
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Joe312
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#69
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#69
(Original post by Cryoraptor)
They were self-entitled mentally insane terrorists. They were not fighting for the vote, or marriage equality. They were fighting because they were not okay in the head. If they had any sense, they would not do the things they did because that gave credibility to the idea that women were mentally inferior to men. They were essentially the equivalent of a modern-day troll: Hijacking a legitimate cause and making a giant mess of it to get attention.

SuffraGISTs on the other hand were fighting for the vote and marriage equality. That is the group of 1st wave feminists we should hold in high regard. Modern feminism holding suffragettes in high regard is a good indicator of how toxic is its.
You've actually not answered my question, of how you would feel were you denied the vote, legally raped by your husband, and then called a mentally insane terrorist for fighting back against that system.
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Cryoraptor
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#70
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#70
(Original post by Pinkisk)
I am already a member of my university's feminist society and much, much, much more than just that...but not for the reasons that most are members of such societies.
This reminds me of a community I saw on Steam a few years ago.

It was a feminist community and one of the most important criteria for joining was that 'you didn't criticise feminism'. I could point out how ridiculous that is but that's not my point.

I find it funny how on one hand, feminism claims to be supporting strong women, but when someone criticises it, they fall back and claim women are the victims. What stance they take also changes depending on the situation. It's a fake movement that serves the needs of trolls; you can hijack basically any situation to your advantage to get attention. Perfect troll material. And unfortunately, most people on YouTube and the like didn't pick up on the fact that feminist channels are for the most part utter trolls who will move the goalposts and shift from strong to victim and back whenever they need to to keep getting attention.
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adam271
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#71
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#71
(Original post by Pinkisk)
Feminism = a marxist communist ideology based on marxist, communist principles.
MRM = a random caucus composed of men and women from all walks of life, holding vastly contradicting ideological beliefs fighting against homelessness, and fighting for father's rights, men's rights in marriage etc without any ideological affiliation whatsoever....

How are these two groups the mirror image of each other?
You have purposefully misinterpreted modern feminism.
While cherry picking bits of male rights groups you like.


But seeing as how your view of feminism is if your a feminist you have to support all the good with the bad. E.g. if your a modern feminist you are idolising the nutters while supporting female empowerment.


I presume you back many incels who are part of male rights groups that have demanded forced breeding? I.e the idea of government forcing women to sleep with incels?
Or are they just the quacks that don't count.



I mean I could do a 2000 word post on all the other stupid crap that MRM groups have done or floated about doing.

So ye, that's why I think they are the same.

Also feminists are not just women. They are a random caucus composed of men and women from all walks of life, who have helped with maternity leave, equal rights and pay in workplace. And many other things.
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Cryoraptor
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#72
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#72
(Original post by Joe312)
It can't be a retreat if the change made no difference to my argument. It doesn't matter for my argument whether they were held in high regard because they did secure the vote, or because they attempted to secure it. So don't pick up on things that don't matter to my argument as evidence that i'm on the retreat when you're only doing so to avoid my actual argument for which what you've pointed out makes no difference. You're on the retreat.
This is just word games at this point. Feminists are brilliant at confusing people with senseless word games.

Your entire argument was that suffragettes were deified by feminists because they supposedly secured the vote, when in reality they didn't. This was pointed out to you and you shifted the goalposts. And now you're claiming that it wasn't your argument to begin with. Okay then?

denied the vote
Strangely enough, most women did not go bat**** insane because of this fact. Most kept their sanity because they realised if they began acting like they escaped from an asylum, they would prove the stereotype correct. Those that today would be referred to as trolls decided to use it as an excuse to act like lunatics and get attention.

legally raped by your husband
This may be hard to understand from a female feminist perspective if you're a woman but most blokes aren't into raping their significant others and never were. I'm not saying it's right if it happens, but I doubt this was a daily worry for the vast majority of women, even in the early 20th century.

and then called a mentally insane terrorist for fighting back against that system
No, not all or even most opponents of this system were mentally insane terrorists. The suffragettes were mentally insane terrorists. They may have claimed to be representing all women but they most certainly were not. This is something that modern day feminists do even though not even 1 in 10 women identify as feminist (in the UK anyway), again another reminder of feminism's toxic past and a good indicator of modern feminism's utter toxicity.
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adam271
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#73
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#73
(Original post by Cryoraptor)
I can't speak for them but I will speak for me because I know I will get targeted in this way as well.

Any group that acts in an equally toxic manner as 3rd wave feminism will also see my disapproval. You'll be happy to hear that includes some if not most of MGTOW and serious Incel cancer sites.

However, just like 3rd wave feminism, MGTOW has its levels. There are some that are just adopting the lifestyle and others that are complete AIDS. Incels not so much, they are almost entirely cancerous.
It's all infantile. Glad you agree.
Everyone is just trying to cash in on victim hood now and it's getting both silly and toxic.
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Pinkisk
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#74
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#74
(Original post by Joe312)
This is completely irrelevant, maybe we shouldn't idolise the suffragettes, I don't care whether they were good people or not.
It does not matter what you think right? You are a follower of the movement and your concern is only with the ideological links right? Feminist historians and theorists glorify the suffragettes as heroes. They present them as the foremothers of feminism. If the heroes, founders and leaders of your movement are shown to be genocidal maniacs, does this not bring your entire movement into question?

(Original post by Joe312)
The point is their involvement in the white feather campaign had nothing to do with feminism and you've still failed to explain a link between feminist ideology and the white feather campaign.
The fundamental principle of feminism is the idea of the patriarchy which I defined earlier. The idea that we live in a world run by a system created by men to objectify and enslave women for their benefit. This notion is not very much unlike the one on which nationalist socialism is based, the idea that we live in a world run by Jews out to enslave everyone. Both ideas are identical. Both inspire hate in the followers of these ideologies towards the enemy, the Jews in nationalist socialism and men in feminism. This notion plays a huge part in driving feminists to engage in hateful and violent acts towards men, which are pervasive throughout feminist history.

(Original post by Joe312)
Just because a feminist did something bad, that doesn't mean they did it because of feminism.
I agree. Let's judge feminism by its doctrine as it was written by its most widely accepted theorists. You have the definition for the patriarchy given above. Address its inherent nazi like sexism and its link to violence.
Last edited by Pinkisk; 1 month ago
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Cryoraptor
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#75
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#75
You have purposefully misinterpreted modern feminism.
While cherry picking bits of male rights groups you like.


But seeing as how your view of feminism is if your a feminist you have to support all the good with the bad. E.g. if your a modern feminist you are idolising the nutters while supporting female empowerment.
The thing is, even fairly healthy feminists deify the suffragettes. There is not a single feminist who doesn't think the suffragettes were amazing people.
Not to mention, feminism operates as a hive-mind. A 'moderate' feminist will still support the fanatic over someone who doesn't support modern feminism. I've seen this kind of thing myself.

I mean I could do a 2000 word post on all the other stupid crap that MRM groups have done or floated about doing.
Of course. There are MRAs that are complete fanatics and pure trolls. The same goes with feminism.

Also feminists are not just women. They are a random caucus composed of men and women from all walks of life, who have helped with maternity leave, equal rights and pay in workplace. And many other things.
Ah, that's second wave feminism. That was 'good' feminism in the sense of, it did get women rights that they didn't have before. However, modern 3rd wave feminism has nothing good to offer and is a movement made for trolls, maintained by trolls for trolls to use. It's the perfect weapon for a troll to use to get attention as a feminist can portray themselves or a situation as anything they want.

I'm not disagreeing that MRA and such can be as utterly cancerous as rabid feminism at all. I just think moderate MRA is pretty incomparable to 'moderate' 3rd wave feminism. Moderate MRA and MGTOW entails adopting a lifestyle, while all 3rd wave feminism involves perpetrating lies and a trollish movement.
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Cryoraptor
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#76
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#76
(Original post by adam271)
It's all infantile. Glad you agree.
Everyone is just trying to cash in on victim hood now and it's getting both silly and toxic.
Massively. Many groups' appeals these days are victim points. Everyone wants to be more of a victim than everyone else.
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Joe312
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#77
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#77
(Original post by Cryoraptor)
This is just word games at this point. Feminists are brilliant at confusing people with senseless word games.

Your entire argument was that suffragettes were deified by feminists because they supposedly secured the vote, when in reality they didn't. This was pointed out to you and you shifted the goalposts. And now you're claiming that it wasn't your argument to begin with. Okay then?
I'm sorry but that's just not what my argument was.

My argument was that feminist support of the suffragettes had nothing to do with their involvement in the white feather campaign, it was because they secured/attempted-to-secure the vote. I hope you see now that whether they secured it or just attempted to, made no difference to my argument; whichever it was, that is why feminists supported them, not because of the white feather campaign.
(Original post by Cryoraptor)
Strangely enough, most women did not go bat**** insane because of this fact. Most kept their sanity because they realised if they began acting like they escaped from an asylum, they would prove the stereotype correct. Those that today would be referred to as trolls decided to use it as an excuse to act like lunatics and get attention.
It's not strange, humans are good at surviving. However I find it pretty callous to call someone a mentally ill terrorist because they broke under the pressure of rape and tyranny, which is why I asked you how you would feel if you were denied the vote, legally raped, and then called a mentally ill terrorist. It would be good if you could answer!
(Original post by Cryoraptor)
This may be hard to understand from a female feminist perspective if you're a woman but most blokes aren't into raping their significant others and never were. I'm not saying it's right if it happens, but I doubt this was a daily worry for the vast majority of women, even in the early 20th century.
I think it's you who is struggling to understand. Many blokes felt entitled to have sex with their wives when they wanted and there was no law against rape within a marriage. Many women felt like there was nothing they could do about being used in this way, however some didn't accept that and it's those I am referring to. I don't know how you managed to pivot to the question of whether rape was a daily worry. Regardless, it wasn't rape as we now understand it because it was legal and as I said, most women just went along with it because they didn't even realise they should have the right to object.
(Original post by Cryoraptor)
No, not all or even most opponents of this system were mentally insane terrorists. The suffragettes were mentally insane terrorists. They may have claimed to be representing all women but they most certainly were not. This is something that modern day feminists do even though not even 1 in 10 women identify as feminist (in the UK anyway), again another reminder of feminism's toxic past and a good indicator of modern feminism's utter toxicity.
They might have been mentally insane terrorists, but given that they were second class citizens subjected to legalised rape I think it's pretty disgusting to call them that because it deliberately ignores the oppression which caused their mental damage.
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Cryoraptor
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#78
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#78
Address its inherent nazi like sexism and its link to violence in feminism.
As you describe, the idea of patriarchy is very similar to the Nazi Jewish conspiracy. A certain group is in charge and making everyone else their slaves. That group must be stopped at all costs, even if it involves eventually murdering them all. That's where it leads to.
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Pinkisk
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#79
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#79
(Original post by Cryoraptor)
As you describe, the idea of patriarchy is very similar to the Nazi Jewish conspiracy. A certain group is in charge and making everyone else their slaves. That group must be stopped at all costs, even if it involves eventually murdering them all. That's where it leads to.
Nationalist socialism = The world is run by a system created by Jews to enslave and oppress white people for the beneficence of Jews.

Feminism = The world is run by a system created by men out to enslave and oppress women for the beneficence of men.

They core tenets of these ideologies are identical!!!!

You are right...both lead to hate and violence prevalent within both these two movements towards Jews in the former and men in the latter.
Last edited by Pinkisk; 1 month ago
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Cryoraptor
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#80
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#80
(Original post by Joe312)
I'm sorry but that's just not what my argument was.

My argument was that feminist support of the suffragettes had nothing to do with their involvement in the white feather campaign, it was because they secured/attempted-to-secure the vote. I hope you see now that whether they secured it or just attempted to, made no difference to my argument; whichever it was, that is why feminists supported them, not because of the white feather campaign.

It's not strange, humans are good at surviving. However I find it pretty callous to call someone a mentally ill terrorist because they broke under the pressure of rape and tyranny, which is why I asked you how you would feel if you were denied the vote, legally raped, and then called a mentally ill terrorist. It would be good if you could answer!

I think it's you who is struggling to understand. Many blokes felt entitled to have sex with their wives when they wanted and there was no law against rape within a marriage. Many women felt like there was nothing they could do about being used in this way, however some didn't accept that and it's those I am referring to. I don't know how you managed to pivot to the question of whether rape was a daily worry. Regardless, it wasn't rape as we now understand it because it was legal and as I said, most women just went along with it because they didn't even realise they should have the right to object.

They might have been mentally insane terrorists, but given that they were second class citizens subjected to legalised rape I think it's pretty disgusting to call them that because it deliberately ignores the oppression which caused their mental damage.
'Legalised rape' is an extreme emotional term. Suggesting that most men just 100 years ago frequently raped their partners is pretty sexist.

I haven't given you a direct answer to your question because it's a bull**** loaded question. I broke it down. It's a flawed question that doesn't need to be directly answered.

And they were mentally insane terrorists because they were causing grief to people who had nothing to do with it and acting like ****ing idiots. They were trolls. If a minority of people exploited a genuine cause to be ******s and bring attention to themselves in the modern day, we'd call them trolls. That's exactly what they were.

And anyway, bringing up 'legalised rape' is irrelevant because the suffragettes were not fighting against that. It's an emotional erroneous argument that misses the point. You are acting exactly like a feminist; exaggerating the facts to make people have a misplaced emotional response instead of using logic to come up with an appropriate response. Feminism is the art of emotion, not facts.
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