Is this tiredness or a sign I’m not for engineering?
I’m a year 12 student studying maths, further maths, physics and engineering; along with many engineering supercurriculares and complex engineering equipment at school for my engineering clubs. Every time I think of engineering, or pictures of engineers, or the description of their roles, I just sigh. I’m like “damn, that will be my reality one day, that sucks”. I can already feel myself as a tired engineer longing to go home- I’m not even an engineer yet! I don’t like technical engineering webinars either, that’s a bad sign. I was at a webinar for chemical engineering and I just completely zoned out, I was that bored
I wasn’t like this. I was motivated, eager to compete to become the best future student engineer that I can be, I could physically feel my dopamine increasing when I thought of my future as an engineer. Now it’s just a bleak future I dread. I don’t know if it’s because the A level stress is getting to me, and the mundaneness of every day sixth form life taking my spark away. Or, I genuinely have found out through talking to my past-engineer teachers, and watching them excited about some lame pistons or whatever in the engineering room, or when I have to do some god-awful CAD Solidworks assignment (lol) and the system doesn’t work for the 100th time- that I feel nothing for engineering anymore
I told my further maths teacher that I’m scared I no longer want to do engineering. I thought my passion genuinely had faded. But then, a super smart guy in my class reassured me, saying that it’s ok and normal, how we’re all feeling that way too, it’s not because I necessarily lost passion. This caused me to reflect on how passionate I was at engineering, and is thus influencing this post; I thought I lost all passion, but maybe he’s right, maybe I’m just tired
By the way, I should probably say that I’m going to get checked out for depression; I feel that I won’t give you the full picture if I don’t mention this. Anyways, this post is a quick ramble outlining my mind: do I seem tired or am I genuinely not fit for engineering anymore?
I wasn’t like this. I was motivated, eager to compete to become the best future student engineer that I can be, I could physically feel my dopamine increasing when I thought of my future as an engineer. Now it’s just a bleak future I dread. I don’t know if it’s because the A level stress is getting to me, and the mundaneness of every day sixth form life taking my spark away. Or, I genuinely have found out through talking to my past-engineer teachers, and watching them excited about some lame pistons or whatever in the engineering room, or when I have to do some god-awful CAD Solidworks assignment (lol) and the system doesn’t work for the 100th time- that I feel nothing for engineering anymore
I told my further maths teacher that I’m scared I no longer want to do engineering. I thought my passion genuinely had faded. But then, a super smart guy in my class reassured me, saying that it’s ok and normal, how we’re all feeling that way too, it’s not because I necessarily lost passion. This caused me to reflect on how passionate I was at engineering, and is thus influencing this post; I thought I lost all passion, but maybe he’s right, maybe I’m just tired
By the way, I should probably say that I’m going to get checked out for depression; I feel that I won’t give you the full picture if I don’t mention this. Anyways, this post is a quick ramble outlining my mind: do I seem tired or am I genuinely not fit for engineering anymore?
why do u love engineering? make a whole list.
also engineeeing is a flexible degree compared to others most employers will see u r smart and be willing to teach u into other sectors.
also engineeeing is a flexible degree compared to others most employers will see u r smart and be willing to teach u into other sectors.
Original post by Sha.xo527
I’m a year 12 student studying maths, further maths, physics and engineering; along with many engineering supercurriculares and complex engineering equipment at school for my engineering clubs. Every time I think of engineering, or pictures of engineers, or the description of their roles, I just sigh. I’m like “damn, that will be my reality one day, that sucks”. I can already feel myself as a tired engineer longing to go home- I’m not even an engineer yet! I don’t like technical engineering webinars either, that’s a bad sign. I was at a webinar for chemical engineering and I just completely zoned out, I was that bored
I wasn’t like this. I was motivated, eager to compete to become the best future student engineer that I can be, I could physically feel my dopamine increasing when I thought of my future as an engineer. Now it’s just a bleak future I dread. I don’t know if it’s because the A level stress is getting to me, and the mundaneness of every day sixth form life taking my spark away. Or, I genuinely have found out through talking to my past-engineer teachers, and watching them excited about some lame pistons or whatever in the engineering room, or when I have to do some god-awful CAD Solidworks assignment (lol) and the system doesn’t work for the 100th time- that I feel nothing for engineering anymore
I told my further maths teacher that I’m scared I no longer want to do engineering. I thought my passion genuinely had faded. But then, a super smart guy in my class reassured me, saying that it’s ok and normal, how we’re all feeling that way too, it’s not because I necessarily lost passion. This caused me to reflect on how passionate I was at engineering, and is thus influencing this post; I thought I lost all passion, but maybe he’s right, maybe I’m just tired
By the way, I should probably say that I’m going to get checked out for depression; I feel that I won’t give you the full picture if I don’t mention this. Anyways, this post is a quick ramble outlining my mind: do I seem tired or am I genuinely not fit for engineering anymore?
I wasn’t like this. I was motivated, eager to compete to become the best future student engineer that I can be, I could physically feel my dopamine increasing when I thought of my future as an engineer. Now it’s just a bleak future I dread. I don’t know if it’s because the A level stress is getting to me, and the mundaneness of every day sixth form life taking my spark away. Or, I genuinely have found out through talking to my past-engineer teachers, and watching them excited about some lame pistons or whatever in the engineering room, or when I have to do some god-awful CAD Solidworks assignment (lol) and the system doesn’t work for the 100th time- that I feel nothing for engineering anymore
I told my further maths teacher that I’m scared I no longer want to do engineering. I thought my passion genuinely had faded. But then, a super smart guy in my class reassured me, saying that it’s ok and normal, how we’re all feeling that way too, it’s not because I necessarily lost passion. This caused me to reflect on how passionate I was at engineering, and is thus influencing this post; I thought I lost all passion, but maybe he’s right, maybe I’m just tired
By the way, I should probably say that I’m going to get checked out for depression; I feel that I won’t give you the full picture if I don’t mention this. Anyways, this post is a quick ramble outlining my mind: do I seem tired or am I genuinely not fit for engineering anymore?
I’m also in year 12 studying maths, engineering and computer science.
Maybe you are burning yourself out, as you do so many engineering extra curricula’s you are starting to find it boring. Take a break, and find another hobby that you can do in between which will distract you for a small time. Remember that engineering is such a broad subject, and with those A levels you can go into a lot of careers / degrees - which don’t necessarily have to be engineering related.
Original post by Sha.xo527
I’m a year 12 student studying maths, further maths, physics and engineering; along with many engineering supercurriculares and complex engineering equipment at school for my engineering clubs. Every time I think of engineering, or pictures of engineers, or the description of their roles, I just sigh. I’m like “damn, that will be my reality one day, that sucks”. I can already feel myself as a tired engineer longing to go home- I’m not even an engineer yet! I don’t like technical engineering webinars either, that’s a bad sign. I was at a webinar for chemical engineering and I just completely zoned out, I was that bored
I wasn’t like this. I was motivated, eager to compete to become the best future student engineer that I can be, I could physically feel my dopamine increasing when I thought of my future as an engineer. Now it’s just a bleak future I dread. I don’t know if it’s because the A level stress is getting to me, and the mundaneness of every day sixth form life taking my spark away. Or, I genuinely have found out through talking to my past-engineer teachers, and watching them excited about some lame pistons or whatever in the engineering room, or when I have to do some god-awful CAD Solidworks assignment (lol) and the system doesn’t work for the 100th time- that I feel nothing for engineering anymore
I told my further maths teacher that I’m scared I no longer want to do engineering. I thought my passion genuinely had faded. But then, a super smart guy in my class reassured me, saying that it’s ok and normal, how we’re all feeling that way too, it’s not because I necessarily lost passion. This caused me to reflect on how passionate I was at engineering, and is thus influencing this post; I thought I lost all passion, but maybe he’s right, maybe I’m just tired
By the way, I should probably say that I’m going to get checked out for depression; I feel that I won’t give you the full picture if I don’t mention this. Anyways, this post is a quick ramble outlining my mind: do I seem tired or am I genuinely not fit for engineering anymore?
I wasn’t like this. I was motivated, eager to compete to become the best future student engineer that I can be, I could physically feel my dopamine increasing when I thought of my future as an engineer. Now it’s just a bleak future I dread. I don’t know if it’s because the A level stress is getting to me, and the mundaneness of every day sixth form life taking my spark away. Or, I genuinely have found out through talking to my past-engineer teachers, and watching them excited about some lame pistons or whatever in the engineering room, or when I have to do some god-awful CAD Solidworks assignment (lol) and the system doesn’t work for the 100th time- that I feel nothing for engineering anymore
I told my further maths teacher that I’m scared I no longer want to do engineering. I thought my passion genuinely had faded. But then, a super smart guy in my class reassured me, saying that it’s ok and normal, how we’re all feeling that way too, it’s not because I necessarily lost passion. This caused me to reflect on how passionate I was at engineering, and is thus influencing this post; I thought I lost all passion, but maybe he’s right, maybe I’m just tired
By the way, I should probably say that I’m going to get checked out for depression; I feel that I won’t give you the full picture if I don’t mention this. Anyways, this post is a quick ramble outlining my mind: do I seem tired or am I genuinely not fit for engineering anymore?
Original post by Sha.xo527
I’m a year 12 student studying maths, further maths, physics and engineering; along with many engineering supercurriculares and complex engineering equipment at school for my engineering clubs. Every time I think of engineering, or pictures of engineers, or the description of their roles, I just sigh. I’m like “damn, that will be my reality one day, that sucks”. I can already feel myself as a tired engineer longing to go home- I’m not even an engineer yet! I don’t like technical engineering webinars either, that’s a bad sign. I was at a webinar for chemical engineering and I just completely zoned out, I was that bored
I wasn’t like this. I was motivated, eager to compete to become the best future student engineer that I can be, I could physically feel my dopamine increasing when I thought of my future as an engineer. Now it’s just a bleak future I dread. I don’t know if it’s because the A level stress is getting to me, and the mundaneness of every day sixth form life taking my spark away. Or, I genuinely have found out through talking to my past-engineer teachers, and watching them excited about some lame pistons or whatever in the engineering room, or when I have to do some god-awful CAD Solidworks assignment (lol) and the system doesn’t work for the 100th time- that I feel nothing for engineering anymore
I told my further maths teacher that I’m scared I no longer want to do engineering. I thought my passion genuinely had faded. But then, a super smart guy in my class reassured me, saying that it’s ok and normal, how we’re all feeling that way too, it’s not because I necessarily lost passion. This caused me to reflect on how passionate I was at engineering, and is thus influencing this post; I thought I lost all passion, but maybe he’s right, maybe I’m just tired
By the way, I should probably say that I’m going to get checked out for depression; I feel that I won’t give you the full picture if I don’t mention this. Anyways, this post is a quick ramble outlining my mind: do I seem tired or am I genuinely not fit for engineering anymore?
I wasn’t like this. I was motivated, eager to compete to become the best future student engineer that I can be, I could physically feel my dopamine increasing when I thought of my future as an engineer. Now it’s just a bleak future I dread. I don’t know if it’s because the A level stress is getting to me, and the mundaneness of every day sixth form life taking my spark away. Or, I genuinely have found out through talking to my past-engineer teachers, and watching them excited about some lame pistons or whatever in the engineering room, or when I have to do some god-awful CAD Solidworks assignment (lol) and the system doesn’t work for the 100th time- that I feel nothing for engineering anymore
I told my further maths teacher that I’m scared I no longer want to do engineering. I thought my passion genuinely had faded. But then, a super smart guy in my class reassured me, saying that it’s ok and normal, how we’re all feeling that way too, it’s not because I necessarily lost passion. This caused me to reflect on how passionate I was at engineering, and is thus influencing this post; I thought I lost all passion, but maybe he’s right, maybe I’m just tired
By the way, I should probably say that I’m going to get checked out for depression; I feel that I won’t give you the full picture if I don’t mention this. Anyways, this post is a quick ramble outlining my mind: do I seem tired or am I genuinely not fit for engineering anymore?
You still could be fit for engineering but due to school, you feel burnt out. Don't worry about it yet. You have the rest of yr12, mocks and summer to think about if you want to apply for it.
Original post by Sha.xo527
I’m a year 12 student studying maths, further maths, physics and engineering; along with many engineering supercurriculares and complex engineering equipment at school for my engineering clubs. Every time I think of engineering, or pictures of engineers, or the description of their roles, I just sigh. I’m like “damn, that will be my reality one day, that sucks”. I can already feel myself as a tired engineer longing to go home- I’m not even an engineer yet! I don’t like technical engineering webinars either, that’s a bad sign. I was at a webinar for chemical engineering and I just completely zoned out, I was that bored
I wasn’t like this. I was motivated, eager to compete to become the best future student engineer that I can be, I could physically feel my dopamine increasing when I thought of my future as an engineer. Now it’s just a bleak future I dread. I don’t know if it’s because the A level stress is getting to me, and the mundaneness of every day sixth form life taking my spark away. Or, I genuinely have found out through talking to my past-engineer teachers, and watching them excited about some lame pistons or whatever in the engineering room, or when I have to do some god-awful CAD Solidworks assignment (lol) and the system doesn’t work for the 100th time- that I feel nothing for engineering anymore
I told my further maths teacher that I’m scared I no longer want to do engineering. I thought my passion genuinely had faded. But then, a super smart guy in my class reassured me, saying that it’s ok and normal, how we’re all feeling that way too, it’s not because I necessarily lost passion. This caused me to reflect on how passionate I was at engineering, and is thus influencing this post; I thought I lost all passion, but maybe he’s right, maybe I’m just tired
By the way, I should probably say that I’m going to get checked out for depression; I feel that I won’t give you the full picture if I don’t mention this. Anyways, this post is a quick ramble outlining my mind: do I seem tired or am I genuinely not fit for engineering anymore?
I wasn’t like this. I was motivated, eager to compete to become the best future student engineer that I can be, I could physically feel my dopamine increasing when I thought of my future as an engineer. Now it’s just a bleak future I dread. I don’t know if it’s because the A level stress is getting to me, and the mundaneness of every day sixth form life taking my spark away. Or, I genuinely have found out through talking to my past-engineer teachers, and watching them excited about some lame pistons or whatever in the engineering room, or when I have to do some god-awful CAD Solidworks assignment (lol) and the system doesn’t work for the 100th time- that I feel nothing for engineering anymore
I told my further maths teacher that I’m scared I no longer want to do engineering. I thought my passion genuinely had faded. But then, a super smart guy in my class reassured me, saying that it’s ok and normal, how we’re all feeling that way too, it’s not because I necessarily lost passion. This caused me to reflect on how passionate I was at engineering, and is thus influencing this post; I thought I lost all passion, but maybe he’s right, maybe I’m just tired
By the way, I should probably say that I’m going to get checked out for depression; I feel that I won’t give you the full picture if I don’t mention this. Anyways, this post is a quick ramble outlining my mind: do I seem tired or am I genuinely not fit for engineering anymore?
Original post by Sha.xo527
I’m a year 12 student studying maths, further maths, physics and engineering; along with many engineering supercurriculares and complex engineering equipment at school for my engineering clubs. Every time I think of engineering, or pictures of engineers, or the description of their roles, I just sigh. I’m like “damn, that will be my reality one day, that sucks”. I can already feel myself as a tired engineer longing to go home- I’m not even an engineer yet! I don’t like technical engineering webinars either, that’s a bad sign. I was at a webinar for chemical engineering and I just completely zoned out, I was that bored
I wasn’t like this. I was motivated, eager to compete to become the best future student engineer that I can be, I could physically feel my dopamine increasing when I thought of my future as an engineer. Now it’s just a bleak future I dread. I don’t know if it’s because the A level stress is getting to me, and the mundaneness of every day sixth form life taking my spark away. Or, I genuinely have found out through talking to my past-engineer teachers, and watching them excited about some lame pistons or whatever in the engineering room, or when I have to do some god-awful CAD Solidworks assignment (lol) and the system doesn’t work for the 100th time- that I feel nothing for engineering anymore
I told my further maths teacher that I’m scared I no longer want to do engineering. I thought my passion genuinely had faded. But then, a super smart guy in my class reassured me, saying that it’s ok and normal, how we’re all feeling that way too, it’s not because I necessarily lost passion. This caused me to reflect on how passionate I was at engineering, and is thus influencing this post; I thought I lost all passion, but maybe he’s right, maybe I’m just tired
By the way, I should probably say that I’m going to get checked out for depression; I feel that I won’t give you the full picture if I don’t mention this. Anyways, this post is a quick ramble outlining my mind: do I seem tired or am I genuinely not fit for engineering anymore?
I wasn’t like this. I was motivated, eager to compete to become the best future student engineer that I can be, I could physically feel my dopamine increasing when I thought of my future as an engineer. Now it’s just a bleak future I dread. I don’t know if it’s because the A level stress is getting to me, and the mundaneness of every day sixth form life taking my spark away. Or, I genuinely have found out through talking to my past-engineer teachers, and watching them excited about some lame pistons or whatever in the engineering room, or when I have to do some god-awful CAD Solidworks assignment (lol) and the system doesn’t work for the 100th time- that I feel nothing for engineering anymore
I told my further maths teacher that I’m scared I no longer want to do engineering. I thought my passion genuinely had faded. But then, a super smart guy in my class reassured me, saying that it’s ok and normal, how we’re all feeling that way too, it’s not because I necessarily lost passion. This caused me to reflect on how passionate I was at engineering, and is thus influencing this post; I thought I lost all passion, but maybe he’s right, maybe I’m just tired
By the way, I should probably say that I’m going to get checked out for depression; I feel that I won’t give you the full picture if I don’t mention this. Anyways, this post is a quick ramble outlining my mind: do I seem tired or am I genuinely not fit for engineering anymore?
Broadly speaking, engineering can be split into two streams: design (like CAD and drawing work) and test (this could be a subsystem to the full product).
If I was in your shoes, I'd ask myself the following questions,
[*]What do I want from a job?
[*]Do I want to work in an office?
[*]Do I want to travel/work abroad?
[*]What engineering discipline am I interested in?
[*]If I worked in engineering, would I prefer to be on the design or test side
Without knowing this, it's difficult for any of us to steer you towards an engineering field that might be of interest.
But to give you an idea of some more 'unusual' careers that require an engineering background within aerospace, take a look at the following:
[*]Flight test engineering: https://research.fit.edu/flight-test-engineering/
Testing experimental aircraft
Work alongside test pilots
Extensively trained (including at test pilot schools once a certain amount of experience is gained)
[*]Air crash investigator: https://nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/job-profiles/air-accident-investigator
Self-explanatory - the job is to answer 'Why did this aircraft crash/malfunction and what can be done to mitigate/eliminate the risk of this happening again in the future?'
[*]Verification engineers
Usually work for an aviation authority (such as the CAA) and review/approve evidence to certify an aircraft
This is a very complex and technical job that would require (I imagine) a minimum of 10 years in aerospace
It is important to note that careers like this are normally quite competitive and will require a lot of hard work to get into - but if you put the effort in and know where you're going, you will get there.
Hopefully this gives you some idea of what's out there and how engineering can be far more than just CAD - I don't think how you feel about it is at all unusual, I would probably have similar thoughts if what you describe was the kind of engineering I was being exposed to. Unfortunately, to allow you to see a more complete picture would likely require a) too much money for your school/college or b) teachers with industry connections. Perhaps the way forward is to look for work experience? Or see if you could shadow someone in a job you think interests you?
(edited 1 year ago)
Original post by ismaelishere
why do u love engineering? make a whole list.
also engineeeing is a flexible degree compared to others most employers will see u r smart and be willing to teach u into other sectors.
also engineeeing is a flexible degree compared to others most employers will see u r smart and be willing to teach u into other sectors.
•
I like rearranging and arranging my theoretical knowledge in the given context to solve problems. I recognise it’s not about the problem, it’s not even about your theoretical knowledge, it’s how you rearrange in for your specific situation to get a certain outcome (solution). This is casually called “application”, but that doesn’t describe the intricacies of my feelings as much the description above does
•
In raw terms, it’s fascinating, you learn everyday in both the big and small. I like that I’ll get to be part of both cutting edge research, and be a useful cogwheel in a system learning every day a new format of arranging and rearranging my theoretical knowledge. You can learn new things anywhere, if you’re open minded that you can learn new things anywhere. When doing something manual and not cutting edge, for example, you might apply some coding theory to it or “and” or “or” to maximise your productivity- others will just get on with it, but if you’re humble enough to think that you can learn anywhere, then you can learn that you can apply coding principles to manual jobs! With my FESTO pneumonics, whose components are abstract symbols to represent real-life, every-day manufacturing engineering technical problems, I learned about the concept of “and gates” or “or gates”. I’m still thinking about how to incorporate coding logic into my FESTO circuit board; while others will just “get on with it [the manual task]”, I’m trying to learn something new
•
If I get a chance to work at the cutting edge research, I feel like going to work would energise me. I will think about the sustainable project my company is doing while going home, what I did that day, what I learned, and be happy that I’m working on something revolutionary, which many engineering companies often have. Waking up in the morning for Monday would be a little less of a life-chore
•
Engineering simply has so many connections between the theories. Hell even in the electronics segment of my engineering course, I was able to spot 10 different connections within its 2.5 pages, and was motivated to research further upon them, even though it wasn’t in the curriculum. Because figuring out all these tiny mini connections is so enriching to me. It’s a dopamine loop of the best kind. Specially knowing that this 3D knowledge that comes from spotting and learning about connections, will actually help on problem solving on a job I think. It will make you more quick on your feet at subtilities (idk how to spell that) on the problem that you have
•
R&D is fascinating, overall. The idea of being independent to research for something never seen before, or at least never seen before in your company
Original post by reported-birch
Maybe you should research the different types of engineering there are, aerospace will probably be very different to submarine engineering and stuff like that. Also, slightly off topic, but what supercurriculars have you done? So far I'm struggling to find anything I haven't missed a deadline for
I could private message you, I think that revealing them here might uncover my identity
I think starting from the point of "damn this career sucks I'm gonna have to do that one day" isn't a great indicator no. Have you considered other options? There are plenty of different courses you can do with your A-levels.
Obviously within the STEM regime there's physics, various earth sciences courses (geology, oceanography, climate science, etc), materials science (which does overlap with engineering to a great extent but some courses include more "science" type content too and so some of it is less "mundane" than other engineering content), or via foundation year chemistry. You could also do pretty much any bioscience course via foundation year as well. Also maths (albeit it is very different at degree level to A-level, so that's something to explore possibly!) or computer science.
Outside of that area there's some more mathematical courses e.g. economics, some finance related courses that may be of interest specifically, and then the vast majority of humanities and social science degrees which are also options. So things like law, sociology, archaeology, Egyptology, philosophy, psychology, politics, religious studies, classical studies (and some classics courses), anthropology etc, etc.
Pretty much anything you could consider, with the only possible exceptions being languages (which usually, although not even always - especially for non-European languages- require a language A-level), English literature (normally requires a literature A-level) visual and performing arts subjects (which usually require a corresponding A-level and/or creative portfolio or audition - but this can vary and there are routes into that potentially), some history courses (many require A-level History but increasingly quite a few don't), many geography courses (only about half seem to require A-level Geography) and potentially some healthcare courses which may require biology or chemistry and don't offer foundation years for those who did different subjects (e.g. medicine and dentistry).
I can definitely sympathise with initially leaning towards engineering but feeling less enthused when you get more to grips with the bulk of what you study (much less what you'd do as an engineer), so I'd definitely recommend going with your gut instinct and avoiding committing to a course you aren't fully invested in
Obviously within the STEM regime there's physics, various earth sciences courses (geology, oceanography, climate science, etc), materials science (which does overlap with engineering to a great extent but some courses include more "science" type content too and so some of it is less "mundane" than other engineering content), or via foundation year chemistry. You could also do pretty much any bioscience course via foundation year as well. Also maths (albeit it is very different at degree level to A-level, so that's something to explore possibly!) or computer science.
Outside of that area there's some more mathematical courses e.g. economics, some finance related courses that may be of interest specifically, and then the vast majority of humanities and social science degrees which are also options. So things like law, sociology, archaeology, Egyptology, philosophy, psychology, politics, religious studies, classical studies (and some classics courses), anthropology etc, etc.
Pretty much anything you could consider, with the only possible exceptions being languages (which usually, although not even always - especially for non-European languages- require a language A-level), English literature (normally requires a literature A-level) visual and performing arts subjects (which usually require a corresponding A-level and/or creative portfolio or audition - but this can vary and there are routes into that potentially), some history courses (many require A-level History but increasingly quite a few don't), many geography courses (only about half seem to require A-level Geography) and potentially some healthcare courses which may require biology or chemistry and don't offer foundation years for those who did different subjects (e.g. medicine and dentistry).
I can definitely sympathise with initially leaning towards engineering but feeling less enthused when you get more to grips with the bulk of what you study (much less what you'd do as an engineer), so I'd definitely recommend going with your gut instinct and avoiding committing to a course you aren't fully invested in
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