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Steve.Wren
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Reading this weeks TES I noticed an article discussing that QCA are considering restricting AS maths
entry to those who gain a B (or above) at GCSE Maths.

This is to reflect the difficulty of AS Maths compared to other subjects where the QCA criteria is a
C (or above) at GCSE.

The effect of this change would reduce the maximum number of entries from 350,000 to 65,000 per year
(if I recall correctly).

Surely when the purpose of Curriculum 2000 and the new AS levels was to increase the breadth of
study by students this is a backward step ...

or are students being directed to the new "AS level in Use of Maths" as a breadth course with AS
Maths being only for the most able?

Steve
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Stuart Williams
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In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
[q1]> Reading this weeks TES I noticed an article discussing that QCA are considering restricting AS[/q1]
[q1]> maths entry to those who gain a B (or above) at GCSE Maths.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> This is to reflect the difficulty of AS Maths compared to other subjects where the QCA criteria is[/q1]
[q1]> a C (or above) at GCSE.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> The effect of this change would reduce the maximum number of entries from 350,000 to 65,000 per[/q1]
[q1]> year (if I recall correctly).[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Surely when the purpose of Curriculum 2000 and the new AS levels was to increase the breadth of[/q1]
[q1]> study by students this is a backward step ...[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> or are students being directed to the new "AS level in Use of Maths" as a breadth course with AS[/q1]
[q1]> Maths being only for the most able?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Steve[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
A few years ago, my school has set the condition that you had to have at least a C at Higher Tier or
a B at Intermediate. With Curr.2000, that's changed to Only Higher Tier (C and above). Once upon a
time, the P1 syllabus re-covered quite a lot of Higher topics, but it now assumes them, so
Intermediate level students have no realistic hope of catching up.

SW
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Jo L
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"steve.wren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> Reading this weeks TES I noticed an article discussing that QCA are considering restricting AS[/q1]
[q1]> maths entry to those who gain a B (or above) at GCSE Maths.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> This is to reflect the difficulty of AS Maths compared to other subjects where the QCA criteria is[/q1]
[q1]> a C (or above) at GCSE.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> The effect of this change would reduce the maximum number of entries from 350,000 to 65,000 per[/q1]
[q1]> year (if I recall correctly).[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Surely when the purpose of Curriculum 2000 and the new AS levels was to increase the breadth of[/q1]
[q1]> study by students this is a backward step ...[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> or are students being directed to the new "AS level in Use of Maths" as a breadth course with AS[/q1]
[q1]> Maths being only for the most able?[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Steve[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

I don't personally think this will make much difference as most of the pupils taking AS Maths have a
B or above anyway as the only eligible students should have in practice taken the Higher Tier and if
they are getting Cs IMHO I don't think they are going to be choosing Maths.

Jo
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Ian/Cath Ford
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On Sun, 16 Jun 2002 17:45:55 +0100, "steve.wren" <[email protected]> wrote:

[q1]>This is to reflect the difficulty of AS Maths compared to other subjects where the QCA criteria is[/q1]
[q1]>a C (or above) at GCSE.[/q1]

I didn't realise there was a QCA criteria at all. I shall take a squiz at the article in a wee
bit. We've taken kids with Ds in the past and got A Level grades from them (usually at D/E level),
but with AS supposed to be easier and all it only seems reasonable that the entry criteria should
drop to me....

With the exception, perhaps, being Maths for reasons we all know about.

[q1]>Surely when the purpose of Curriculum 2000 and the new AS levels was to increase the breadth of[/q1]
[q1]>study by students this is a backward step ...[/q1]

Agreed.

[q1]>or are students being directed to the new "AS level in Use of Maths" as a breadth course with AS[/q1]
[q1]>Maths being only for the most able?[/q1]

Ah, of course. That might not be too far away from where the answer
is.

Ian
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-=Rg=-
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"steve.wren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> Reading this weeks TES I noticed an article discussing that QCA are considering restricting AS[/q1]
[q1]> maths entry to those who gain a B (or above) at GCSE Maths.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

God - I thought you had to have a B or better as it is....

How wrong I was....

RG
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Steve.Wren
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[q1]> A few years ago, my school has set the condition that you had to have at least a C at Higher Tier[/q1]
[q1]> or a B at Intermediate. With Curr.2000, that's changed to Only Higher Tier (C and above). Once[/q1]
[q1]> upon a time, the P1 syllabus re-covered quite a lot of Higher topics, but it now assumes them, so[/q1]
[q1]> Intermediate level students have no realistic hope of catching up.[/q1]

In our first year we had an assortment of C's from intermediate who were accepted onto the course
against our firm advice. One went on to get an AS at grade E after much heartbreak, hard work and
sitting loads of exams (resits and alternative modules).

The rest all failed.

We were then allowed to write our own criteria.

Our criteria is now a B or above from higher *unless* a recommendation is made by the class
teacher to accept someone from intermediate or higher with a C. This is usually based on
exceptional reasons.

Our Head of faculty researched some other institutions and even found some at which an A at GCSE was
the minimum entry requirement.

Steve
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Steve.Wren
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[q2]> >This is to reflect the difficulty of AS Maths compared to other subjects where the QCA criteria[/q2]
[q2]> >is a C (or above) at GCSE.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I didn't realise there was a QCA criteria at all.[/q1]

I've always understood that a C grade was the requirement at GCSE to progress onto A level. I have
no idea where this criteria came from - as long as I can recall it has just "existed". It may be
"guidance" rather than fixed in stone.

Steve
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Gaurav Sharma
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"-=RG=-" <[email protected]> wrote in message news[email protected]...
[q1]> "steve.wren" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]
[q1]> news:[email protected]...[/q1]
[q2]> > Reading this weeks TES I noticed an article discussing that QCA are considering restricting AS[/q2]
[q2]> > maths entry to those who gain a B (or above)[/q2]
at
[q2]> > GCSE Maths.[/q2]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> God - I thought you had to have a B or better as it is....[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> How wrong I was....[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> RG[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

I just about managed a B in GCSE maths (with D in coursework) but later seemed to manage AS, A2,
and further maths just fine, so I think it's a bit bone-headed to put on restrictions like that.
If someone gets a C at GCSE and wants to study the subject for A-level, you need to at least give
them a chance.

G.Sharma.
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-=Rg=-
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"steve.wren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q3]> > >This is to reflect the difficulty of AS Maths compared to other[/q3]
subjects
[q3]> > >where the QCA criteria is a C (or above) at GCSE.[/q3]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > I didn't realise there was a QCA criteria at all.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> I've always understood that a C grade was the requirement at GCSE to progress onto A level. I have[/q1]
[q1]> no idea where this criteria came from - as long as I can recall it has just "existed". It may be[/q1]
[q1]> "guidance" rather[/q1]
than
[q1]> fixed in stone.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Steve[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]

I always thought you needed a B... clearly that was just an internal school policy... everyone else
was told to do GNVQs instead...
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Robert Low
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steve.wren <[email protected]> wrote:
[q1]>I've always understood that a C grade was the requirement at GCSE to progress onto A level. I have[/q1]
[q1]>no idea where this criteria came from - as long as I can recall it has just "existed". It may be[/q1]
[q1]>"guidance" rather than fixed in stone.[/q1]

I don't understand this: you don't even need to have attempted a GCSE to take the corresponding
A-level. (Or am I just out of date?)

--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
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Matthew M. Hunt
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Gaurav Sharma ([email protected]) wrote:

[q1]> I just about managed a B in GCSE maths (with D in coursework) but later seemed to manage AS, A2,[/q1]
[q1]> and further maths just fine, so I think it's a bit bone-headed to put on restrictions like that.[/q1]
[q1]> If someone gets a C at GCSE and wants to study the subject for A-level, you need to at least give[/q1]
[q1]> them a chance.[/q1]

Suppose VIth Form College X is competing with VIth Form College Y for students. One of the criteria
that potential students and their parents us in deciding whether to go to X or Y is the average
A-level points that students from X and Y achieve.

In those circumstances, "giving a chance" to a student with a C at GCSE in the subject s/he wants to
study for A-level means taking on someone who is likely (not certain, but likely) to get a low
A-level grade, and hence drag X or Y's average A-level points down.

So it's not "bone-headed" of X and Y not to take on the student, it's simple commercial sense - if X
takes on the student, that is likely to contribute to X's average A-level points going down and
people saying "Ooh-er, X doesn't look too good, I'd be better off going to Y" and vice versa.

Matthew Huntbach
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Matthew M. Hunt
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Robert Low ([email protected] ac.uk) wrote:
[q1]> steve.wren <[email protected]> wrote:[/q1]

[q2]>>I've always understood that a C grade was the requirement at GCSE to progress onto A level. I have[/q2]
[q2]>>no idea where this criteria came from - as long as I can recall it has just "existed". It may be[/q2]
[q2]>>"guidance" rather than fixed in stone.[/q2]

[q1]> I don't understand this: you don't even need to have attempted a GCSE to take the corresponding[/q1]
[q1]> A-level. (Or am I just out of date?)[/q1]

There is no fomal criterion set down by examination boards which states this.

However, many examination centres will set their own criteria for who they will enrol onto A-level
courses. In these league table obsesses days, it makes sense to admit only those who are likely to
get good grades, and not to give a chance to those who are likely to do poorly.

Matthew Huntbach
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Jo L
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"Robert Low" <[email protected] ac.uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q1]> I don't understand this: you don't even need to have attempted a GCSE to take the corresponding[/q1]
[q1]> A-level. (Or am I just out of date?)[/q1]

My Biology teacher at school wanted me to take A-Level Biology in the 6th form when I dropped it at
the end of Year 9.

In many subjects the knowledge you acquired for GCSE is not longer relevant for A-Level, e.g. in
Humanties, for example I did A-Level Geography and in it many of the process learnt for GCSE were
found to be too basic and new ones had to be learnt, so it might have helped to not have done the
GCSE in the 1st place!

However in Maths the previous knowledge is crucial!

Jo
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Ian/Cath Ford
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On 17 Jun 2002 12:49:47 GMT, [email protected] (Matthew M. Huntbach) wrote:

[q1]>Robert Low ([email protected] ac.uk) wrote:[/q1]
[q2]>> steve.wren <[email protected]> wrote:[/q2]

[q3]>>>I've always understood that a C grade was the requirement at GCSE to progress onto A level. I[/q3]
[q3]>>>have no idea where this criteria came from - as long as I can recall it has just "existed". It[/q3]
[q3]>>>may be "guidance" rather than fixed in stone.[/q3]

Matthew hits this one on the head in a bit Steve....

[q2]>> I don't understand this: you don't even need to have attempted a GCSE to take the corresponding[/q2]
[q2]>> A-level. (Or am I just out of date?)[/q2]

True.

[q1]>There is no fomal criterion set down by examination boards which states this.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]>However, many examination centres will set their own criteria for who they will enrol onto A-level[/q1]
[q1]>courses. In these league table obsesses days, it makes sense to admit only those who are likely to[/q1]
[q1]>get good grades, and not to give a chance to those who are likely to do poorly.[/q1]

Agree with all of that - another of the "advantages" of leage tables there folks :-(

Ian
--
Ian, Cath & Eoin Ford The view from Beccles

Support clubs against Carlton & Granada: Boycott ITV world cup coverage.

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Martin
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#15
Matthew M. Huntbach <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]> Gaurav Sharma ([email protected]) wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > I just about managed a B in GCSE maths (with D in coursework) but later seemed to manage AS, A2,[/q2]
[q2]> > and further maths just fine, so I think it's a[/q2]
bit
[q2]> > bone-headed to put on restrictions like that. If someone gets a C at[/q2]
GCSE
[q2]> > and wants to study the subject for A-level, you need to at least give[/q2]
them
[q2]> > a chance.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Suppose VIth Form College X is competing with VIth Form College Y for students. One of the[/q1]
[q1]> criteria that potential students and their parents us in deciding whether to go to X or Y is the[/q1]
[q1]> average A-level points that students from X and Y achieve.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> In those circumstances, "giving a chance" to a student with a C at GCSE in the subject s/he wants[/q1]
[q1]> to study for A-level means taking on someone who is likely (not certain, but likely) to get a low[/q1]
[q1]> A-level grade, and hence drag X or Y's average A-level points down.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> So it's not "bone-headed" of X and Y not to take on the student, it's simple commercial sense - if[/q1]
[q1]> X takes on the student, that is likely to contribute to X's average A-level points going down and[/q1]
[q1]> people saying "Ooh-er, X doesn't look too good, I'd be better off going to Y" and vice versa.[/q1]

Surely, a greater consideration in the minds of student and parents is can
s/he take the subjects s/he wishes?

Also, I would be surprised (or maybe not) if the college doesn't recognise - at least to some extent
- that students are likely to do better at subjects they enjoy and hence want to study. Doubtless
they look for correlation between GCSE and A-level performance, but I wonder if they look at this
last point.

--
Martin

(remove barrier to reply)
0
Gaurav Sharma
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#16
"Matthew M. Huntbach" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]> Gaurav Sharma ([email protected]) wrote:[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > I just about managed a B in GCSE maths (with D in coursework) but later seemed to manage AS, A2,[/q2]
[q2]> > and further maths just fine, so I think it's a[/q2]
bit
[q2]> > bone-headed to put on restrictions like that. If someone gets a C at[/q2]
GCSE
[q2]> > and wants to study the subject for A-level, you need to at least give[/q2]
them
[q2]> > a chance.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Suppose VIth Form College X is competing with VIth Form College Y for students. One of the[/q1]
[q1]> criteria that potential students and their parents us in deciding whether to go to X or Y is the[/q1]
[q1]> average A-level points that students from X and Y achieve.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> In those circumstances, "giving a chance" to a student with a C at GCSE in the subject s/he wants[/q1]
[q1]> to study for A-level means taking on someone who is likely (not certain, but likely) to get a low[/q1]
[q1]> A-level grade, and hence drag X or Y's average A-level points down.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> So it's not "bone-headed" of X and Y not to take on the student, it's simple commercial sense - if[/q1]
[q1]> X takes on the student, that is likely to contribute to X's average A-level points going down and[/q1]
[q1]> people saying "Ooh-er, X doesn't look too good, I'd be better off going to Y" and vice versa.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Matthew Huntbach[/q1]

Then that's a really sad situation then really, it'd be nice to have colleges take anyone meeting
minimum requirements, that way everyone gets a chance and it'd automatically even things out a bit,
I don't see the need for free market forces so early on affecting student's careers like that.

G.Sharma.
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Robert Low
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#17
Matthew M. Huntbach <[email protected]> wrote:
[q1]>Put it this way - you have a choice of two colleges to do your A-levels - one says that the average[/q1]
[q1]>A-level points its students get are 24, the other says 18. Which one would you go to? If people[/q1]
[q1]>weren't so obsessed with league tables, organisations wouldn't make meeting the criteria that put[/q1]
[q1]>you up in the league tables such a priority.[/q1]

If people were capable of drawing inferences, they wouldn't be taken in by them.

Imaginary interview:

Tutor: Yes, sir and madam, and why would you like Johnny to come to our secondary school?

Parent: Because he struggled at primary school, and you do so well in the league tables.

Tutor: The reason we do so well in the league tables is that we don't let children who struggled at
primary school in.

--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
0
Matthew M. Hunt
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#18
Gaurav Sharma ([email protected]) wrote:
[q1]> "Matthew M. Huntbach" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]

[q2]> > So it's not "bone-headed" of X and Y not to take on the student, it's simple commercial sense -[/q2]
[q2]> > if X takes on the student, that is likely to contribute to X's average A-level points going down[/q2]
[q2]> > and people saying "Ooh-er, X doesn't look too good, I'd be better off going to Y" and vice[/q2]
[q2]> > versa.[/q2]

[q1]> Then that's a really sad situation then really, it'd be nice to have colleges take anyone[/q1]
[q1]> meeting minimum requirements, that way everyone gets a chance and it'd automatically even things[/q1]
[q1]> out a bit, I don't see the need for free market forces so early on affecting student's careers[/q1]
[q1]> like that.[/q1]

But who is it who lets things be that way? Students and their parents! Put it this way - you have a
choice of two colleges to do your A-levels - one says that the average A-level points its students
get are 24, the other says 18. Which one would you go to? If people weren't so obsessed with league
tables, organisations wouldn't make meeting the criteria that put you up in the league tables such
a priority.

Matthew Huntbach
0
Gaurav Sharma
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#19
"Matthew M. Huntbach" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
[q1]> Gaurav Sharma ([email protected]) wrote:[/q1]
[q2]> > "Matthew M. Huntbach" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q3]> > > So it's not "bone-headed" of X and Y not to take on the student, it's simple commercial sense[/q3]
[q3]> > > - if X takes on the student, that is likely to contribute to X's average A-level points going[/q3]
[q3]> > > down and people[/q3]
saying
[q3]> > > "Ooh-er, X doesn't look too good, I'd be better off going to Y" and[/q3]
vice
[q3]> > > versa.[/q3]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q2]> > Then that's a really sad situation then really, it'd be nice to have colleges take anyone[/q2]
[q2]> > meeting minimum requirements, that way everyone[/q2]
gets a
[q2]> > chance and it'd automatically even things out a bit, I don't see the[/q2]
need
[q2]> > for free market forces so early on affecting student's careers like[/q2]
that.
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> But who is it who lets things be that way? Students and their parents! Put it this way - you have[/q1]
[q1]> a choice of two colleges to do your A-levels - one says that the average A-level points its[/q1]
[q1]> students get are 24, the other says 18. Which one would you go to? If people weren't so obsessed[/q1]
[q1]> with league tables, organisations wouldn't make meeting the criteria that put you up in the league[/q1]
[q1]> tables such a priority.[/q1]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> Matthew Huntbach[/q1]

But that's the thing, why not abolish these criteria and just take into account the "proper"
criteria layed by the A-level exam boards, make this a requirement for every college/6th form in the
country? I can't really recall any friend's or their parents referring to league tables from my old
school, except for perhaps one or two (out of 250).

G.Sharma.
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Matthew M. Hunt
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#20
Gaurav Sharma ([email protected]) wrote:
[q1]> "Matthew M. Huntbach" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]

[q2]> > But who is it who lets things be that way? Students and their parents! Put it this way - you[/q2]
[q2]> > have a choice of two colleges to do your A-levels - one says that the average A-level points its[/q2]
[q2]> > students get are 24, the other says 18. Which one would you go to? If people weren't so obsessed[/q2]
[q2]> > with league tables, organisations wouldn't make meeting the criteria that put you up in the[/q2]
[q2]> > league tables such a priority.[/q2]

[q1]> But that's the thing, why not abolish these criteria and just take into account the "proper"[/q1]
[q1]> criteria layed by the A-level exam boards, make this a requirement for every college/6th form in[/q1]
[q1]> the country? I can't really recall any friend's or their parents referring to league tables from[/q1]
[q1]> my old school, except for perhaps one or two (out of 250).[/q1]

How can you "abolish" these criteria? How can you make it illegal for A-level students and their
parents not to make one of the things they take into account when deciding which college to go to
the average A-level score of that college's students? Are you asking for average A-level scores to
be made a state secret which no-one may publish?

Matthew Huntbach
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