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Is there a British Israel lobby?

bret

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(edited 11 years ago)

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Reply 1

PeeWeeDan

It must be doing an awful job...

Reply 2

Diaz89

i think that de millo chick is a representative on this board.

Reply 3

username196545

PeeWeeDan

It must be doing an awful job...

They should hire you.
Melanie Phillips...take THAT!

Reply 4

username196545

Diaz89

i think that de millo chick is a representative on this board.

Why do you think that? (Seriously)

Reply 5

PeeWeeDan

Bubbles*de*Milo

They should hire you.
Melanie Phillips...take THAT!

Oh come now, we both know I'm better Hasbara than any Israel rep you've ever seen :p:

Reply 6

DesingoceR

Perhaps the Labour government likes the idea of having at least one open, diverse, secular democracy in the Middle-East.

Reply 7

username196545

PeeWeeDan

Oh come now, we both know I'm better Hasbara than any Israel rep you've ever seen :p:

Lmao. Indeed you are a better Hasbarah than anyone else I've spoken too. :yep:

Reply 8

PeeWeeDan

Bubbles*de*Milo

Lmao. Indeed you are a better Hasbarah than anyone else I've spoken too. :yep:

Ahh shucks :p:

Reply 9

Haft_Hasht_Shish

I don't know much about the issue but within Wesminster ~ probably CFI or LFI?

Reply 10

username196545

PeeWeeDan

Ahh shucks :p:

Guess what.

Spoiler

Reply 11

PeeWeeDan

Bubbles*de*Milo

Guess what.

Spoiler

You'll make me blush!

Reply 12

JJ1

bret

No congressman can break free of their agenda

I believe you

the intense criticism W+M came under after they published the working paper that preceeded the book accused them of poor academic practice. In my view the paper (and subsequently the book) was a bit misleading.

One of the central themes was that the Israel lobby controls the congress. However W+M give, as far as i recall, only one example of the lobby ever successfully punishing a congressman for attacking their cause. They cite the case of Illinois senator Charles percy who was criticised by AIPAC and lost an election soon after, with AIPAC claiming that they had influenced the result (by rallying voters, not corruption). Putting aside the fact that several leading Illinois politicians (Vrdolyak and Washington) put his defeat not down to any lobby activity but down to the Democrats motivating black voters particularly effectively, the case is from 1984. That means that despite claiming that the lobby at least partially control congress, W+M had to go back over 20 years to find an example of the lobby successfully punishing a congressman. This is just one example.

In fact the paper was littered with "examples" like this which actually end up suggesting the opposite of what W+M were trying to prove (like the numerous occasions on which they highlight comments made during heated debate in order to prove that people are trying (successfully) to stifle the debate).

The idea that the Israel lobby (apparently a single organisation/conspiracy despite the fact that it is nebulous and fragmented) control everything or even several things in America is a bit ridiculous. The National Beer Wholesalers Association is almost as big as AIPAC. I guess that explains why Americans drink so much beer. I guess all the criticism W+M came under was also down to the sheer vastness of the Israel lobby - even non-Jewish academics found themselves so desperate to save their jobs from the Israel lobby that they felt they just had to come out and criticise the book and paper.

And now apparently the israel lobby controls congress. Anyone who knows anything about the American political system will probably recognise that the idea that literally no congressman can escape the clutches of the jews (oops, sorry, I mean israel lobby) is also a bit silly.

You have read W+M's book, it said what you expected/wanted to hear, and so you have taken it word for word. I think people just find it difficult to accept that most american politicians support Israel because they see it as a useful ally, because they support democracy, because they like having a friendly power in the middle east, because they built up an association with israel during the cold war following massive soviet arms shipments to egypt and syria, and because they rely extensively on Israeli intelligence due to america's partnership with Mossad/Shin Bet/Aman. (Raviv and melman)

whatever...

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EDIT: Just to answer the original question, yes there is an israel lobby in the UK, but it is less powerful than the one in america, since there is less support for Israel generally, and lobbies play a less important role in the political system as a whole.

Reply 13

borismor

bret

Mearshimer and Walt show pretty conclusively that a highly organized band of Israeli fifth columnists are able to subvert American interests to further Israel's. America is probably a lost cause and is as much the problem as Israel. The Israel lobby is all pervasive and will get you accused of anti-Semitism for quoting their own website. No congressman can break free of their agenda, and rebels are punished mercilessly. It's only a matter of time before they turn the heat on Dennis Kucinich.

But is there a British Israel lobby, and does it exert as much influence on our foreign policy as it does the Americans'? As a country we are much freer to criticize Israel than in the US, where all news media self-censors, and even the "liberal" blogs give Israel the benefit of the doubt and refrain from pointing out the obvious--that it commits atrocities, both structural and direct, on a daily basis, is in violation of more UN resolutions than any country in the world, and presents a huge threat to world peace with its 200 warhead nuclear arsenal. Our own mainstream media, the Guardian and Independent primarily, tirelessly expose the IDF's crimes and call for our government to denounce Israel and take all possible measures to thwart its belligerency.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/23/israel-gaza-war-crimes-guardian

The population too is far more balanced in its views on the conflict than the US public, which is fed a diet of total propaganda from an early age. Indeed, it's a surprise that in that country there is any dissent at all.

So why does the British Labour government remain silent? Our prestige in the world would increase tenfold if we were seen to stand up to Israel and cut ourselves loose of the one-sided "special relationship", which, by the way, is a figment of the imagination, and is never referred to as such in the US.

The Labour Party relies far more, both spiritually and electorally, on middle-class intellectuals and inner-city Muslims than it does on pro-Israel Jews.

The racial unrest in the country would actually subside if a tougher line was taken on Israel. Anti-semitism would decrease if it was seen that the government was being more even handed and independent in its international conduct.

And unlike the US, we no longer have an empire to maintain. While M+W are correct that support for Israel hinders US oil interests, the case can be made that the settler state affords the US a permanent base in the middle-east and a mock staging ground for its own imperial adventures. But we get nothing from Israel. The disdain Israel feels toward Europe and European opinion is palpable, and was demonstrated in the comments made by Shimon Peres to the ITV journalist during the Gaza massacre. It's also demonstrated by Israeli sympathizers on TSR, who view Europe at best as biased and ineffectual, and at worst an anti-Semitic cesspool.

So why does our government, against the wishes of the people and the interests of the country, continue to write a blank moral check for Israel? John Pilger has hinted that there is a powerful Israel lobby in the country, and Tam Dalyell has spoken out to similar effect. But is its influence more concealed than in the US, due to the fact there would be uproar if it acted in a similar fashion as AIPAC etc?

I wonder why you have to use so many words to say simple things.

You want the UK government to do what the Muslim population (or lobby) wants, which is in particular to bash Israel.

That's all there's to it.

Reply 14

UniOfLife

Yes, there's one giant group of Jewish people controlling the world's governments behind the scenes all working to one hymn sheet. Now, where have I heard that before...? :rolleyes:

To answer the OP's question - there are hundreds and thousands of lobby groups operating in the UK and more in the US. Some have more money than others, some more influence. Some have an easier time because the people they are lobbying are inclined to agree with the lobbyist's position. To suggest there is one single lobby group on Israel is plainly retarded. To suggest that it subverts American interest is essentially to label all American politicians totally corrupt and then you may as well say that the NRA is a fifth column.

In Britain there are pro-Israel lobby groups and there are anti-Israel lobby groups. I don't recall any politician in the UK losing their seat because of their opposition to Israel. But anti-Israel lobby groups claimed "victory" when an MP lost her seat after they campaigned against her (in a Muslim area) telling everyone she was Jewish and a Zionist (it was mentioned in the All Party Parliamentary Inquiry into Antisemitism). So, in short, there are pro-Israel lobbies in the UK and elsewhere, and there are anti-Israel ones too, and there are thousands of lobbies on different topics.

This myth is so similar to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion myth that it should make anyone who is not too heavily invested in their Israel-hatred stop and think.