ESPS at UCL - ab initio language learners and fluency

Dear all,
graduated this year from ESPS (Italian ab initio) here's the truth- you won't be fluent, but your CV will say you are. This is true of all the ab initios in my year (to a greater or lesser degree). In truth the ESPS language component is most useful to people with good knowledge (A level at least). In my year LOTS of people were studying languages which they grew up with but weren't educated in (German/French parentage, lived in Paris studied at a French school, studied German for ESPS etc), which is excellent for getting very high marks, but not so much fun for the ab initio lot.


Sorry guys!

Dear all,
graduated this year from ESPS (Italian ab initio) here's the truth- you won't be fluent, but your CV will say you are. This is true of all the ab initios in my year (to a greater or lesser degree). In truth the ESPS language component is most useful to people with good knowledge (A level at least). In my year LOTS of people were studying languages which they grew up with but weren't educated in (German/French parentage, lived in Paris studied at a French school, studied German for ESPS etc), which is excellent for getting very high marks, but not so much fun for the ab initio lot.

For some reason you decided to ignore my question lifeisgood, but I think it is worth asking again - would you be equally happy studying any of these languages? I find that hard to understand and frankly a little foolish. From reading your other posts it seems to me that you are not interested in the cultures and societies these languages represent and your primary motive for learning a new language is to bolster your CV. If that is the case you will find whatever language you choose very difficult.



I do not agree, it might be difficult to attain fluency in some languages in only four years, but it is perfectly possible in others so long as you put in the effort. ESPS students spend the same amount of time learning their chosen language as other students on ab initio language degree programmes, if they can become fluent there is no reason why ESPS students can not.

Thanks!

I'm very interested in the Italian ab initio program. Can you tell me how proficient you are, in italian? Are there any official qualifications to certify you are proficient in italian? What did you mean by "but your CV will say you are"?

Hi there!

I'm an offer holder for ESPS at UCL and in order to pick the right language, I've done some research that I'm going to share, regarding the language acquisition at ESPS. I also have some questions regarding the amount of language you learn on the course, and how proficient you will get.

First off - the amount of language contact hours (including history, speaking, culture, literature etc) are typically 6-7hrs a week (though this can rarely stretch up till 9 depending on the amount of modules).
(Source: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1288579&p=36362250#post36362250)

An academic year is typically around 32 weeks. So that means around 220 hours an academic year. I can only assume language contact hours on the year abroad will be similar or only slightly higher due to local courseload and dissertation research, but the effects of immersion will accelerate acquisition.

The US State Department's Foreign Service scale of language difficulty measures how many classroom hours it takes for an English-fluent student to become proficient in another language at the level of S3 in the ILR scale, equivalent to C1 on the CEFR scale. The descriptor for C1 is "Effective Operational Proficiency" - meaning working proficiency. These are the following ESPS ab initio languages:
(Source: http://www.effectivelanguagelearning.com/language-guide/language-difficulty)

Italian, Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish: 600 Hours
German: 750 Hours
Russian, Finnish: 1100 Hours

I was originally going to pick Russian, but seeing as the amount of contact hours traditionally required to reach a level of working proficiency seem to be above the contact hours at ESPS, would it be more wise to opt for Italian or German?

If anybody knows any ESPS students or graduates, could you please comment on the level of their language proficiency?

know of one dude just back from his year abroad at Moscow and his level of Russian was the same, if not better than those doing a straight Russian degree here at UCL. (Also this is because, as you will find out soon enough, ESPS students are just bat**** crazy, they're all so smart and speak 50 languages already, one more won't do anything to them).

I do not understand the rationale behind this post at all. You are suggesting that in achieving a similar standard of Russian as the students on the Russian degree programme, that the ESPS student has worked harder and put in more effort? That does not make any sense because as I have already said, ESPS students do exactly the same amount of contact hours as the students on the language degrees.

How is that possible? How can an ESPS student, who studies a bunch of social sciences, have as many contact hours as a straight Russian student?

I do not understand the rationale behind this post at all. You are suggesting that in achieving a similar standard of Russian as the students on the Russian degree programme, that the ESPS student has worked harder and put in more effort? That does not make any sense because as I have already said, ESPS students do exactly the same amount of contact hours as the students on the language degrees.

you won't be fluent, but your CV will say you are. This is true of all the ab initios in my year. In truth the ESPS language component is most useful to people with good knowledge (A level at least). In my year LOTS of people were studying languages which they grew up with but weren't educated in (German/French parentage, lived in Paris studied at a French school, studied German for ESPS etc), which is excellent for getting very high marks, but not so much fun for the ab initio lot.
My Italian is OK now, I can read plays, poetry etc. and have a conversation, but after ten minutes or so the conversation deteriorates and I end up guessing from context etc. Novels are too hard. I'm a B2/C1 borderline. C1 is degree level and therefore fluency according to the EU, but I'm not so convinced. Hence 'your CV will say you are'.
ESPS-ers don't get enough tuition/ there's not enough pressure on your degree to attain it.

B2 is meant to be A-level standard though? At the moment (in my A-level year) I can hold a conversation on loads of topics (film, immigration, transport etc.) and read basic novels. To be fair, I suppose C1 is a huge step up though, going from conversational fluency to a professional standard in all situations. What's it like for post A-level students? Will they reach fluency? I was hoping to be comfortable C1 by the end of the degree.

When you say "not so much fun for the ab initio lot" - was it more difficult for you to achieve a good result because of the 'near-native' speakers?

The tutors on the ESPS assessment day were saying that ab initio and post A-level students finish on "roughly the same level with no clear correlation between knowledge pre- and post-degree" - is this simply untrue then?

Whereas the straight languages students just live the language and study related stuff in every lesson (Italian language class, then Italian novels, then Italian History) ESPS students would have to balance their time between a language and a social science, and so would have less 'brain time' devoted to absorbing the language.

I would say that they say that there's no correlation...but there is. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I just think you need to be realistic with what is achievable on the degree. The other thing is A level is supposed B2, like a degree is supposedly C1, but there is a massive breadth of ability in that spectrum.
I suspect the reason the language level isn't brilliant is, as you say, ESPS-er have more on their plates that a straight languages student and also that unless your level is REALLY bad, it won't negatively effect your degree classification and hence there's no pressure.
On the subject of grades, usually the near native lot get crazy grades in their language exams (90+) which can be a drag for the rest of you.
While I'm being a massive downer, I would still recommend the degree, just exercise some skepticism at the bold claims the department makes!