Cameron defends letter to Islamic leaders
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30877447
"David Cameron has defended a letter urging senior Muslims to explain how Islam "can be part of British identity", amid criticism from leaders."
The letter was sent to 1,000 Muslim leaders after the attacks in Paris.
The prime minister said Mr Pickles was "absolutely right" to write the letters urging leaders to do more to tackle extremism.
Was this the right course of action to take after the Paris shootings?
"David Cameron has defended a letter urging senior Muslims to explain how Islam "can be part of British identity", amid criticism from leaders."
The letter was sent to 1,000 Muslim leaders after the attacks in Paris.
The prime minister said Mr Pickles was "absolutely right" to write the letters urging leaders to do more to tackle extremism.
Was this the right course of action to take after the Paris shootings?
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No, could you imagine getting a letter urging you to apologise for slavery of blacks?
Original post by Queen Cersei
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30877447
"David Cameron has defended a letter urging senior Muslims to explain how Islam "can be part of British identity", amid criticism from leaders."
The letter was sent to 1,000 Muslim leaders after the attacks in Paris.
The prime minister said Mr Pickles was "absolutely right" to write the letters urging leaders to do more to tackle extremism.
Was this the right course of action to take after the Paris shootings?
"David Cameron has defended a letter urging senior Muslims to explain how Islam "can be part of British identity", amid criticism from leaders."
The letter was sent to 1,000 Muslim leaders after the attacks in Paris.
The prime minister said Mr Pickles was "absolutely right" to write the letters urging leaders to do more to tackle extremism.
Was this the right course of action to take after the Paris shootings?
Pickles' letter was in really bad taste. After empthatically expressing how Britain can't be Britain without its Jews and Christians, he urges Muslim leaders to explain Islam can be a part of British identity.
Here is the actual letter: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/396312/160115_Final_Draft_Letter_to_Mosques_PDF.pdf
For me, the most questionable part of the letter is this:
"Like all faiths, Islam and its message of peace and unity makes our country a better and stronger place"
I've said before on a different thread that "Islam is a religion of peace" is as stupid as saying that all Muslims are terrorists - both are massive generalisations that can't really be justified. Some Muslims are violent, most are peaceful, but generalisations should be avoided wherever possible even if they are positive ones. Not only that, but it tends to attract ridicule from certain bigots like Britain First.
That's leaving aside issues of taste, which I'm not quite sure about.
For me, the most questionable part of the letter is this:
"Like all faiths, Islam and its message of peace and unity makes our country a better and stronger place"
I've said before on a different thread that "Islam is a religion of peace" is as stupid as saying that all Muslims are terrorists - both are massive generalisations that can't really be justified. Some Muslims are violent, most are peaceful, but generalisations should be avoided wherever possible even if they are positive ones. Not only that, but it tends to attract ridicule from certain bigots like Britain First.
That's leaving aside issues of taste, which I'm not quite sure about.
Of course it was the right course to take.
Utterly stupid comparison. Not a single person alive today was alive at the time slavery was abolished. By contrast, Muslim leaders have failed to stop young impressionable Muslims being radicalised and committing atrocities both in Iraq and in the UK. The radicalisation of young Muslims is an ongoing issue which Muslim leaders can and should do more to stop. The slave-trade was abolished in 1833, it is completely irrelevant to this discussion.
I don't believe this country currently has a problem with Jews and Christians integrating into our society. We certainly do with Muslims. Cameron has said again and again that Islam is a peaceful religion that is welcomed in the UK. A bit of reciprocity in getting Muslims to act in accordance with British and Western values is not unreasonable.
Original post by TornadoGR4
No, could you imagine getting a letter urging you to apologise for slavery of blacks?
Utterly stupid comparison. Not a single person alive today was alive at the time slavery was abolished. By contrast, Muslim leaders have failed to stop young impressionable Muslims being radicalised and committing atrocities both in Iraq and in the UK. The radicalisation of young Muslims is an ongoing issue which Muslim leaders can and should do more to stop. The slave-trade was abolished in 1833, it is completely irrelevant to this discussion.
Original post by Person1001
Pickles' letter was in really bad taste. After empthatically expressing how Britain can't be Britain without its Jews and Christians, he urges Muslim leaders to explain Islam can be a part of British identity.
I don't believe this country currently has a problem with Jews and Christians integrating into our society. We certainly do with Muslims. Cameron has said again and again that Islam is a peaceful religion that is welcomed in the UK. A bit of reciprocity in getting Muslims to act in accordance with British and Western values is not unreasonable.
I think it was quite a strange course of action that lacked tact and seemed to be sucking up at the same time as insinuating that the islamic leaders needed to take action
Original post by TornadoGR4
No, could you imagine getting a letter urging you to apologise for slavery of blacks?
The letter doesn't call for apologies. It calls, essentially, for Moslem leaders to take steps to make sure young Moslems aren't radicalised (which is, after all, largely a matter for Moslem preachers/leaders), to make it clear within the religious community that violence is not acceptable as a response to being offended and to make sure an example is set that Islam-inspired terrorism is condemned and not supported.
It also promises support for keeping mosques safe.
Original post by Queen Cersei
insinuating that the islamic leaders needed to take action
Stating, rather than insinuating. And they do. Who else, other than Moslem preachers and leaders, has control of what is taught in mosques? Who else can have such an effect of radicalisation of the young?
Considering countries like Germany and France are finally at a breaking point when it comes to Islam, and there are marches and protests with crowds numbering in the millions, a piddly little letter is hardly an extreme proposition. Islam has not integrated nearly enough, and no amount of apologist-style lectures about how Islam is 'a religion of peace' or these terrorists are 'not true muslims' will cover the fact that a lot more needs to be done for Islam to even slightly fit into Western countries. The best way to do that is for muslim leaders to preach and educate their followers, so a letter asking them to do that is a good start. Good on Cameron for showing a spine (for once).
Original post by tengentoppa
A bit of reciprocity in getting Muslims to act in accordance with British and Western values is not unreasonable.
A bit of reciprocity in getting Muslims to act in accordance with British and Western values is not unreasonable.
In what ways do Muslims fail to integrate with British society. The Muslims of Britain as do the Sikhs, Jews, Christians, Indians, Chinese, etc. make up the British values by virtue of being British.
There's nothing wrong with the letter, but the British financially support Wahabbism and are then surprised at the consequences. Traditional Muslims don't have anything near the money that Wahabbis do to be able to refute this bull**** claim that you can't be a good, pious Muslim under the British State.
Also, the Iraq war has pushed everything behind by decades. There's only going to be more lone attacks.
Also, the Iraq war has pushed everything behind by decades. There's only going to be more lone attacks.
Good idea from the outset. But if he is sincere and wants the support of the muslim community, he needs to ensure that Islamic beliefs are too respected. We should all work to:
a) Root out extremism/terrorism
b) Respect and protect religious beliefs.
Hopefully the world will be a better place.
a) Root out extremism/terrorism
b) Respect and protect religious beliefs.
Hopefully the world will be a better place.
There's nothing that is more misunderstood in the modern world than that of secularism and Islam. As is usual, the lines drawn by atheists and thicko "Musims" are bull****, false and deceptive.
Why don't the government get on board traditional scholars, like Sheikh Abdullah Bin Bayyah, Sheikh Abdul Hakim murad etc. etc., rather than muppets like Majid Nawaz, as if he is the alternative to wahabbism? No, they're too busy paying Anjum Choudry to fly out first class to America and appear on Fox news, or are busy making more arm deals with corrupt Saudi Kings.
Why don't the government get on board traditional scholars, like Sheikh Abdullah Bin Bayyah, Sheikh Abdul Hakim murad etc. etc., rather than muppets like Majid Nawaz, as if he is the alternative to wahabbism? No, they're too busy paying Anjum Choudry to fly out first class to America and appear on Fox news, or are busy making more arm deals with corrupt Saudi Kings.
Original post by R£SP£CT
Respect and protect religious beliefs.
Respect and protect religious beliefs.
Religious beliefs are as fully protected in the UK as they could be. Anyone can believe
anything and worship whatever god they wish, including Satan.
Respect for any particular belief is a different matter, though. The best anyone can hope for (and expect) is respect for their right to believe whatever they wish. For instance, would you respect the religious beliefs and practices of someone who claimed to follow an ancient South American religion that involved cutting out the hearts of sacrificial victims and throwing them from the top of a ziggurat?
No religious belief can be guaranteed respect, and many are unworthy of respect.
Original post by interact
the lines drawn by atheists and thicko "Musims" are bull****, false and deceptive.
What false lines are drawn by atheists?
Original post by TornadoGR4
No, could you imagine getting a letter urging you to apologise for slavery of blacks?
1. This concerns religious teachings and ideology, not race. The two are rather different.
2. Slavery officially ended in the British Empire 200 years ago and has little relevance to any living person today.
3. The letter is not calling for Muslims to apologize.
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask Muslim leaders to do something about the rise of extremism within their religion. The best way to fight extremism is to stop it where it starts: in the Muslim community.
Original post by Person1001
In what ways do Muslims fail to integrate with British society. The Muslims of Britain as do the Sikhs, Jews, Christians, Indians, Chinese, etc. make up the British values by virtue of being British.
If all Muslims integrated so smoothly into British culture Lee Rigby wouldn't have been murdered, hundreds of young Muslims wouldn't be going off to join ISIS, there wouldn't be the so-called sharia patrols, there wouldn't have been calls to murder Salman Rushdie and the Danish cartoonists and we wouldn't have hate preachers like Anjem Choudary.
Minority though they may be, most of those who fail to integrate into British society due to religion are Muslims. So the letter sent to Muslim leaders telling them to sort it out is perfectly justified.
Certain self-appointed Muslim community spokesmen and professional agitators have taken offence in a letter that is in no sense insulting. What raises their ire is that they are being told they should take a more active role in preventing young Muslims from being radicalised; I cannot see fault in such a call.
The fact there are more British Muslims serving in ISIS than in the British Armed Forces strongly suggests there are profound cultural pathologies at play here, and that Muslim community leaders and the community has a whole has failed to grasp the nettle and take responsibility for the atmosphere of victimhood that surely leads to radicalisation.
I am not generally a supporter of this government, but the Secretary of State has voiced what must be said and what consecutive governments have been too afraid to say for fear of causing offence. Well, I say that Muslims should feel embarassed by the degree to which in the Muslim community it is felt to be legitimate to express certain political views by means of violence. That is not the British way, and if they are genuinely interested in being a positive and peaceable part of this community, they need to pull the finger out and start addressing these unpleasant truths
The fact there are more British Muslims serving in ISIS than in the British Armed Forces strongly suggests there are profound cultural pathologies at play here, and that Muslim community leaders and the community has a whole has failed to grasp the nettle and take responsibility for the atmosphere of victimhood that surely leads to radicalisation.
I am not generally a supporter of this government, but the Secretary of State has voiced what must be said and what consecutive governments have been too afraid to say for fear of causing offence. Well, I say that Muslims should feel embarassed by the degree to which in the Muslim community it is felt to be legitimate to express certain political views by means of violence. That is not the British way, and if they are genuinely interested in being a positive and peaceable part of this community, they need to pull the finger out and start addressing these unpleasant truths
Original post by tengentoppa
If all Muslims integrated so smoothly into British culture Lee Rigby wouldn't have been murdered, hundreds of young Muslims wouldn't be going off to join ISIS, there wouldn't be the so-called sharia patrols, there wouldn't have been calls to murder Salman Rushdie and the Danish cartoonists and we wouldn't have hate preachers like Anjem Choudary.
Minority though they may be, most of those who fail to integrate into British society due to religion are Muslims. So the letter sent to Muslim leaders telling them to sort it out is perfectly justified.
Minority though they may be, most of those who fail to integrate into British society due to religion are Muslims. So the letter sent to Muslim leaders telling them to sort it out is perfectly justified.
The issue here isn't about lack of cultural integration, it's about extremism as you're describing. People like Anjem Choudary are already largely condemned by the British Muslim community and whilst Anjem identifies as a Muslim as he does British - Neither the mainstream Muslims nor British citizens would identify with him.
It would have been more accurate and less offensive had the letter not questioned how Muslims are part of British society but instead identified extremism as the issue and how we are all in this together to tackle these issues and how Pickle, May, Cameron lend their full support to the Muslim communities who are also being victimised.
(edited 9 years ago)
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