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The Arsenal Thread XXII

2010-11. Arsenal squad with more bottle than a Coke bottle, yet bottled it. (At the end when Fabregas basically went AWOL, you can see why they don't forgive him especially for moving across the Piccadilly line)

Reply 8581

Kim-Jong-Illest

16

Original post by IceyFish

Yeah I guess so, he makes sense if you're thinking about Arsenal's lack of work rate up top but he's not the most technical player. I guess it could be argued to show a measure of pragmatism from Wenger, in the sense that he's finally willing to drop the jizzfest over technically skilled offensively minded playmakers on the wing and fit some hardworking industrious players into the side. You could probably upgrade but it's not too much of a problem for now, a CF is definitely needed though as Giroud is either not good enough (which I believe personally), or exposed with no back-up.

Hard to argue that Giroud isn't good enough based off his current season/form, unless you mean not good enough on his own for a title challenge as oppose to not good enough for Arsenal. If so then I agree, he needs rotation to prevent burnout/getting lazy from lack of competition but I think he could still be our main striker if we continue getting goals from players like Sanchez/Ramsey/Ozil etc. in fact quite a few of our players rely on Giroud being up top to play well tbh. Which can be argued to not be very healthy in the long run but it shows how influential he is when playing well.

Reply 8582

username1315644

17

Original post by Pimped Butterfly

They've shown more maturity in the big PL games, forget the CL for now. I think that alone, Wenger finally yielding and being more pragmatic, constitutes a lot of progress.

Possibly but looking at the mini league, I wouldn't say its a lot of progress. Perhaps attitude but how much has it translated to. Their best result of the season is a win against City, and a win which considering City's performance against top sides or just generally since is considerably less impressive. Chelsea would have been a good indicator but they clearly came for a draw. They still have us to play I guess, but how much can be learned from that. I don't think you can say forget the CL for now either. Why would you forget it? Its arguable a great test of a managers pragmatism and the maturity of a team, particularly in the approach to the knockout rounds.

Original post by fallen_acorns

as it stands, we will finish 7pts off the lead. Looking back it looks like:

7pts, 7pts, 16pts, 19pts, 12pts, 11pts, 18pts, 4pts

So you have to go back 8 seasons, until you find us closer to the title then we have been this and last season.

Our points totals also reflect this:

(potential) 79-82, 79, 73, 70, 75, 72, 83

You can also counter with you have to go back 3 seasons to find a time you were further off the title. How have you arrived at 7 points too? 13 at present with a game in hand, but I would say United at OT than Liverpool at the bridge. Even then 10 seems more likely, but for consideration 15 is possible. Does that change the argument? I don't think so.

In terms of points I think its just fluctuation for the most part. 82 points got Chelsea 3rd last season, they'll win the title with 83 this year. Year to year points totals do change, and you can draw multiple conclusions depending on how you choose to look at it.

I'm talking about whether this season has seen notable progression. SUG makes the argument you have in terms of mentality, you haven't been smashed by a top side, I think transfers is certainly improved but in performance terms, although you can argue you are better equipped than ever there is nothing to suggest from this season there has been notable improvement in over the near term towards the ultimate aims.

I'm not anti Arsenal, beginning of last season I said I thought the team was not far off being ready to mount a title challenge. The team is certainly moving forward over the longer team, and is moving nicely towards the requirements for sustained success. I just think the measured being used to assess progress from last season are weak. On this thread someone wrote they were happy we lost to Everton as it means you will finish above us in 2nd, indicating progress. So the difference between progress in 2nd and 3rd is whether United lose to Everton before possibly doing the league double on you? Thats weak.

As said the FA cup is nice, but your run to the final consists of which teams? Hull, Brighton, Middlesborough, United and Reading, with Villa in the final. There are 3 lower league sides and and 2 relegation contenders. United perhaps but a game over one leg, in a season where you could conceivably lost twice in the league. Not to mention are United really the acid test we were previously? I don't think its means much in assessing a season in the cold light of day.

Reply 8583

IceyFish

1

Original post by Kim-Jong-Illest

Hard to argue that Giroud isn't good enough based off his current season/form, unless you mean not good enough on his own for a title challenge as oppose to not good enough for Arsenal. If so then I agree, he needs rotation to prevent burnout/getting lazy from lack of competition but I think he could still be our main striker if we continue getting goals from players like Sanchez/Ramsey/Ozil etc. in fact quite a few of our players rely on Giroud being up top to play well tbh. Which can be argued to not be very healthy in the long run but it shows how influential he is when playing well.

Yeah I meant wrt a title challenge rather than Arsenal (though really both things should be interlinked). His build up play is good though, brings a lot of people into play and allows Ramsey to run in behind defences. Not good enough in big games either really, every other top team has a striker capable of creating something from nothing which he doesn't.

Reply 8584

Pimped Butterfly

1

Original post by Fizzel

Possibly but looking at the mini league, I wouldn't say its a lot of progress. Perhaps attitude but how much has it translated to. Their best result of the season is a win against City, and a win which considering City's performance against top sides or just generally since is considerably less impressive. Chelsea would have been a good indicator but they clearly came for a draw. They still have us to play I guess, but how much can be learned from that. I don't think you can say forget the CL for now either. Why would you forget it? Its arguable a great test of a managers pragmatism and the maturity of a team, particularly in the approach to the knockout rounds.

Put it this way, if I was an Arsenal fan, I'd be over the moon with the knowledge that Wenger didn't suicidally push his fullbacks to the byline against Chelsea, and that they won an away game at City. Given that their season has all the classic hallmarks of an Arsenal season, that improvement is stark and makes me feel uneasy, as an opposition supporter. The fact that Wenger has finally yielded and dropped his stubbornness, along with the arrival of the talismanic Alexis, means that there's a whole new world of decent performances in big games for them to explore.

Improvement in the CL and on the domestic front is just a little too much to ask for tbh.

Reply 8585

Pete_91

11

I'd say we're back at 08 levels. Still need significant improvements mentally, physically, tactically (transfers and coaching improvements) to get back to anywhere near the 1997-2006 levels.

Reply 8586

Arkasia

19

Original post by ClockEnderAFC

You sound like Ty lol trying to find the positives all the time

You mean I'm not a miserable bastard who refuses to acknowledge his side is in the FA Cup final for the second year in a row, and is joint second in the BPL table (with a game in hand)? I just like to support my club, and whilst that does mean criticizing some aspects some of the time, it also means praising them when they are doing well, and being happy for their success.

Reply 8587

al_94

14

What will you guys think if we don't win the FA Cup?

Reply 8588

fallen_acorns

20

Original post by al_94

What will you guys think if we don't win the FA Cup?

the season has been a failure.

Simple really.

Reply 8589

Dirtybit

20

Success = Winning FA cup

Arsenal Logickz

Reply 8590

AliRizzo

13

Original post by Fizzel

Which side was it that won it the year before you? Who played you in the final last year, who are you playing this year? Its a nice trophy to win, particularly in combination with a league title, but its hardly the CL. Getting to the final is quite clearly on the basis of previous finalists of poor indicator of quality, and beating a team escaping relegation doesn't add much more to that.

The fact remains, as in previous years you where a considerable margin off the title (a slightly better also ran), and in Europe you messed up the group stage (again) and exited at the R16 (again). Progress made by Arsenal this season in terms of performance is marginal at best, mere fluctuation quite possibly.

Unfair rationalization of the quality of a cup competition by looking at previous finalists. Dortmund were in the CL final only 2 years ago and for the majority of this season looked on the brink of relegation and will probably finish mid-table this season, and they almost won it.

Cup competitions are all about luck and getting easy opponents in your road to the final. Hull last year had a very easy route to the final including Sunderland, Sheffield, Brighton Middlesbrough, so no surprise to see them there. In contrast we had Liverpool, Everton, Spurs (3 of the top 6 in the country and would have been 4 had Man City not been knocked out by Wigan). Villa's route to the final doesn't look too frightening either.

Also, I wouldn't belittle a competition which your team badly wanted to win this year, especially your manager. It's easy to call a competition ****e when your team is not in it.

Reply 8591

AliRizzo

13

Original post by Fizzel

As said the FA cup is nice, but your run to the final consists of which teams? Hull, Brighton, Middlesborough, United and Reading, with Villa in the final. There are 3 lower league sides and and 2 relegation contenders. United perhaps but a game over one leg, in a season where you could conceivably lost twice in the league. Not to mention are United really the acid test we were previously? I don't think its means much in assessing a season in the cold light of day.

It's astounding how your arguments are looking at incredibly minute detail to belittle a teams performance over an entire season. Chelsea finished sixth in the league the same year they beat Barca and Bayern in the CL and ultimately won it. Does their final league position belittle that achievement? No.

Using your argument there are an enormous amount of possibilties we can assess where a champions achievements can only be praised to a certain extent because a team didn't provide an 'acid' test. Do you think the players go home and think oh yeah well they're not as good as they used to be so it doesn't really say much about the win? Of course not. They take the win on board and use that new found mentality/ability to win and use it to improve further.

Reply 8592

Arkasia

19

Everyone tries to claim the FA Cup is unimportant until they actually have a chance of winning it.

Reply 8593

AR_95

21

FA cup hasn't even been won yet and people are talking as if it's already in the bag ffs, the same with 2nd.

Noticed you mentioned something about City's drop in form Fizzel and how it correlates with our win, but before we went to the Etihad, City had Won 8 games and drawn 2 in the last 10(league) so I doubt it was just a case of catching them at the right time.

I agree with SuG in some aspects that we've significantly improved our big game mentality which is a sign of progress, but the squad still needs quite some work done if we want to become serious contenders. Our run of form this year doesn't take us any closer to the title then it did last year which speaks volumes, and it's much, much more then just a case of if player x was available or had we set up like this from the start of the season.

Fizzel's also right in some aspects. We haven't moved forward from R16. You also have to take into consideration the teams around us. UTD were on transition from finishing 7th and hiring a new manager, Liverpool lost a completely irreplaceable player to their side(whilst failing to cover up for it) and City have been in piss poor form due to an aging squad and a manager that's been found out. The only team who improved from last year is Chelsea, which is why they're running away with the league and we're missing out yet again, potentially by more points this season. So really by default we're 2nd and it's the minimum we should be achieving this season if we look back at what position each club was last year.

We've moved sideways if anything. There are signs that we've improved but then you take into consideration areas we've regressed, such as defence.
KJI as much as you rate Bellerin, he's a complete liability. I don't rate his defensive game any more then I did at the start of the season. He's been a very lucky boy and easily should have 2 or 3 red cards to his name, which completely changes the way you'd look at him.

Progress IS there however. I do find it funny that the FA cup is being discredited (yes, it's not an important cup in any way compared to the CL) considering it was UTD and Liverpool's only chance of silverware this year. Judging games by "you're only playing a team that's 10th or in league 2" is absurd, when these teams have knocked out the likes of Liverpool, City and Chelsea (refuse to accept any argument that certain teams just didn't want to go for it bar Chelsea)

2 back to back trophies IF we were to win is progress. Even if we don't win it, getting back into the final is some sort of progress compared to the last decade in which we've been stripped of success. Is it immediate progress? No. But that's not generally what Arsenal fans are saying. The idea is that we've moved in the right direction for once and if things continue that way, I don't see why we wouldn't be able to win a title in the near future.

Reply 8594

fallen_acorns

20

annoying to be not playing until monday..

does not look like a very exciting week to be honest.

Chelsea will win the title..

Guess there is city vs spurs.. could be a good game, and if city drop anything, then 2nd is pretty much sorted.

Reply 8595

username1315644

17

Original post by AliRizzo

Unfair rationalization of the quality of a cup competition by looking at previous finalists. Dortmund were in the CL final only 2 years ago and for the majority of this season looked on the brink of relegation and will probably finish mid-table this season, and they almost won it.

Key point 2 years ago. In a period they won the league, CL finalist and the German cup in and around it. They lost their best players, and have significantly regressed as a team. How close did Dortmund get to the final this year? That would be a relevant point. Wigan got relegated in the same year. You can get to final of the FA cup while being ****, you cannot and no one has done the same in the CL.

Cup competitions are all about luck and getting easy opponents in your road to the final. Hull last year had a very easy route to the final including Sunderland, Sheffield, Brighton Middlesbrough, so no surprise to see them there. In contrast we had Liverpool, Everton, Spurs (3 of the top 6 in the country and would have been 4 had Man City not been knocked out by Wigan). Villa's route to the final doesn't look too frightening either.

You trying to make my points for me? There are clearly multiple ways to get to the final of the FA cup, yet you want to take it at face value with no looking into how you actually got there. Ultimately by beating a collection of team you should be expecting to beat and going into this season you would have expected to beat. If anything its less of an test for you this year.

Also, I wouldn't belittle a competition which your team badly wanted to win this year, especially your manager. It's easy to call a competition ****e when your team is not in it.

Taking shots at United, clearly jimmes have been rustled. What United want is irrelevant. LVG wanted the FA because he wanted to keep his record of winning something in his first year. Its got nothing to do with the quality of our team and everything to do with his ego. We're competing for 4th, its importance grows in the absence of other success for the players and the fans, but thats not what is being discussed. As before that doesn't elevate it above 'something nice to win.'

Original post by AliRizzo

It's astounding how your arguments are looking at incredibly minute detail to belittle a teams performance over an entire season. Chelsea finished sixth in the league the same year they beat Barca and Bayern in the CL and ultimately won it. Does their final league position belittle that achievement? No.

Of course does, and is a point that is and always will be brought up with Chelsea's win. How a team capable of winning couldn't finish in the top 4. Why did they exit the CL at the group stage the following year? Because the underlying quality of that team was not what a CL victory suggested, as was evident to anyone who watched them.

Using your argument there are an enormous amount of possibilties we can assess where a champions achievements can only be praised to a certain extent because a team didn't provide an 'acid' test. Do you think the players go home and think oh yeah well they're not as good as they used to be so it doesn't really say much about the win? Of course not. They take the win on board and use that new found mentality/ability to win and use it to improve further.

What does what player think have to do with this? Beating United this year is not as much of an achievement as in previous years, simple. Same as Leeds or Nottingham Forest, you cannot assess the quality of a team purely from the name of the team they beat without also assessing the quality of that team at the time of the meeting. We're nowhere near a title winning team, we're nowhere near a European heavyweight, so how does beating United indicate progress for Arsenal? That is standard you are measuring yourself against.

Original post by AR_95

Noticed you mentioned something about City's drop in form Fizzel and how it correlates with our win, but before we went to the Etihad, City had Won 8 games and drawn 2 in the last 10(league) so I doubt it was just a case of catching them at the right time.

I don't think this is logical. What you've said is exactly a case for catching them at the right time. If their form has continued after you're victory it would be evidence there were still on a hot streak, and that would not be catching them at the right time. In that 2015 run, they picked up 18/33 points, with the only top half side they beat being Stoke (not sure they have beaten once since), and exiting the CL and FA cup in that period. Compare the previous 11 games (3 months which is why I chose it) they took far more points. There is a clear break in City's form around the New Year, and you played them just after that.

Original post by fallen_acorns

the season has been a failure.

Simple really.

This is pretty much what I object to. Success or failure needs to go beyond your performance against a relegation battling team in the final of the FA cup.

Reply 8596

fallen_acorns

20

Original post by Fizzel

Original post by fallen_acorns

the season has been a failure.

Simple really.

This is pretty much what I object to. Success or failure needs to go beyond your performance against a relegation battling team in the final of the FA cup.

at the end of the day your sucsess as a club is based on winning trophies though.. sure there are better trophies then others - but in 20, 50 years time, do you think people will remember who we played in the final?

Or will it just be that wenger won back to back FA cups in his final few years at the club..

Just another digit on our list of trophies won.

--

Its like saying in the olympics or tennis: well, they did well over the course of a year, and them loosing the final does not really matter, as is only 1 match in hundreds..

True, but its THE match. the final - the one that decides the sucess and failure of all the other matches in the tournement preceeding it.

Its the difference between giving the players a winning mentality and increasing their confidence.. or watching them crumble away and be battered by the media.. Its the difference in atttitude from a club with 2 trophies in 2 years, to a club with 0 in 10. It really does make a big difference.

the PL, the CL, the FA cup - they can all come down to 1 game. and that game could be against a weaker team then you expect.. but whether you win that 1 game, is whether or not you get remembered, and whether you succeeded. Whether you win something or dont.

And how else can you judge sucess for big football clubs, other then by what they win?

Reply 8597

username1315644

17

Original post by fallen_acorns

And how else can you judge sucess for big football clubs, other then by what they win?

Yeah, I get your point and I do kind of agree. Its helps to quantify success no doubt. 0 in 10 to 2 in 2, absolutely but I'm not really arguing whether Arsenal have progressed in the long term, I think that is evident. Last season was clearly a milestone in your improvement, but I'm talking last season to this season.

Think about it this way, if you weren't a top side how would you judge progress, and if you applied the same methodology, with different standards, would your season be progression as a team?

I think losing in the final (as a lone statement) should always a be a disappointment but not the difference between failure and success as a whole, otherwise your season, could be defined by what mood Benteke is in. A great game from Arsenal terrible ref and 3 Benteke wonder goals, failure. A terrible game from Villa and a near bottle saved by a moment of madness penalty from Arsenal, success.

If that is the case I don't see how you can argue significant progress has been made. I'm not analysing whether its a season you will look back on fondly. I'm asking whether this season has indicators that Arsenal are closer than they where last season to the ultimate aim, which is dominance all the way up to a European level?

Imo. Transfers, yes. Mentality, possibly. CL, no. League, possibly. FA cup, I just don't think it has bearing on any of the aforementioned criteria in a way they do with it.

Does winning the FA mean you are capable of winning the league next year, or does winning the league mean you are capable of winning the FA next year? The same applied to the others.

Reply 8598

fallen_acorns

20

Original post by Fizzel

Yeah, I get your point and I do kind of agree. Its helps to quantify success no doubt. 0 in 10 to 2 in 2, absolutely but I'm not really arguing whether Arsenal have progressed in the long term, I think that is evident. Last season was clearly a milestone in your improvement, but I'm talking last season to this season.

Think about it this way, if you weren't a top side how would you judge progress, and if you applied the same methodology, with different standards, would your season be progression as a team?

I think losing in the final (as a lone statement) should always a be a disappointment but not the difference between failure and success as a whole, otherwise your season, could be defined by what mood Benteke is in. A great game from Arsenal terrible ref and 3 Benteke wonder goals, failure. A terrible game from Villa and a near bottle saved by a moment of madness penalty from Arsenal, success.

If that is the case I don't see how you can argue significant progress has been made. I'm not analysing whether its a season you will look back on fondly. I'm asking whether this season has indicators that Arsenal are closer than they where last season to the ultimate aim, which is dominance all the way up to a European level?

Imo. Transfers, yes. Mentality, possibly. CL, no. League, possibly. FA cup, I just don't think it has bearing on any of the aforementioned criteria in a way they do with it.

Does winning the FA mean you are capable of winning the league next year, or does winning the league mean you are capable of winning the FA next year? The same applied to the others.

I do see what you mean, for me:

Transfers - yes
Mentality - Yes and no.

This one is tricky, we have not been beating the top teams enough either in last season or this one..

But if we win the final, then atleast we would have shown we have the mental strength to not bottle a tournement, which is something we lacked with the 2008 squad

CL - no = biggest problem for us, I am not sure this will improve untill wenger leaves.
League - last year was an imrpovement, this year we have maintained it.. I would say they are both the same.

If we do get 2nd + the cup, then it is a marginal improvement over last year.. and a big improvement over the last 5 years. its a trend in the right dirrection, and as you said, it could be down to fluctuating results, but then only way we can prove that it is real improvement, and not just a fluction, is to keep this consistancy, of winning trophies and placing well in the league.

--

for the last bit, no winning the FA cup does not mean you can win the league.. but it certianly helps. I mean, look at chelsea + city + united - before they kicked on and won the league, they all won cup competions.

So no, its not guarenteed, but well, its far more of a positive then bottling a final (we all saw what happened when arsenal bottled the league cup final, a few years back.)