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Don't want to be a doctor but too far into degree to quit

TBH I don't think you've really understood what I was asking. The decision is whether to finish Medicine from somewhere abroad and end up with a rubbish degree or move onto a different course and start from scratch in the UK. I've already looked at other UK medical schools and I know that none of them will accept me, that goes without saying. Either I go to Eastern Europe to finish Medicine which could take another 4 years, or I apply for a Maths/science degree in the UK. I only want one degree and I'm not doing any more courses after that - I'm fed up of studying for no reward so I will absolutely never ever do a Masters. My question is which degree do you think would be more likely to get me a job in Consultancy? Medicine or Maths/science?

Well I think you want to really have a realistic look here at what kind of consultancy you want to do. There's really a vast range and I think that the top tier firms are probably off limits here. I know loads of people with Oxford 1sts who could not score a McKinsey job. Are we talking strategy, or are we talking a regional IT consultancy firm?

Reply 21

asif007

19

Original post by AnonymousPenguin

Well I think you want to really have a realistic look here at what kind of consultancy you want to do. There's really a vast range and I think that the top tier firms are probably off limits here. I know loads of people with Oxford 1sts who could not score a McKinsey job. Are we talking strategy, or are we talking a regional IT consultancy firm?

I'd be more inclined towards Strategy but at a push, I would take any consultancy job that I can get. Understandably there's a wide range of types but I don't really know which one I could transition into with a useless degree like Medicine from a low-ranked university. Which is why I'm thinking of starting over and doing a Maths or science degree.

Reply 22

zigglr

18

Just be grateful for what you've got there are people who would love to medicine but couldn't get in. I'm sure you can get jobs other than a doctor with a medicine degree

Reply 23

Gridiron-Gangster

5

Original post by asif007

TBH I don't think you've really understood what I was asking. The decision is whether to finish Medicine from somewhere abroad and end up with a rubbish degree or move onto a different course and start from scratch in the UK. I've already looked at other UK medical schools and I know that none of them will accept me, that goes without saying. Either I go to Eastern Europe to finish Medicine which could take another 4 years, or I apply for a Maths/science degree in the UK. I only want one degree and I'm not doing any more courses after that - I'm fed up of studying for no reward so I will absolutely never ever do a Masters. My question is which degree do you think would be more likely to get me a job in Consultancy? Medicine or Maths/science?

No I understand what it is you're asking but slightly misread the bit about Medicine i.e. you asked if you should do another degree at an RG uni as opposed to should you finish your degree at an RG uni.

The first question is how far did you get into your medical degree? If you only had one or two years left to complete then I think you should look into completing that degree if anyone will allow you to do that. If you it was at the first year stage then really you need to consider whether you would be able to complete another 4 or 5 years of Medicine.

The issue is not that the Medicine degree would be devalued not at all but the institution where you are doing it. Of course there are plenty of students from Eastern Europe who go into IB/Consultancy all over the world so universities in Eastern Europe are highly regarded but depends on the institution i.e. in the Czech Republic pretty much Charles University. You would also need to explore what said university's track record is like in IB and whether the likes of GS, UBS etc come recruiting there even if it is for their Prague/Eastern European offices.

Your next question is about dong a degree at a RG university. To really be competitive in IB/consultancy you of course want to be doing a programme at a strong institution like Oxbridge, UCL, LSE, Imperial, Warwick.....those are the prime "target universities". Possibly Durham, Manchester, Nottingham, Bristol and Edinburgh. But otherwise it's really the first five that will give you the best chance.

It depends on your A-Level grades too, were they in the A*AA/AAA range or higher? Without that you can't really be aiming for say Oxbridge and even then your UMS marks come into question with Cambridge at least. Then tutors will of course question why the sudden change and you would then have to explain the circumstances. They could then question whether your failure at medical school is an indication of whether or not you would be able to cope on this new programme especially at Oxbridge and then whether or not you are really passionate/interested in the course or only doing it because you couldn't think of anything else. Not trying to put you down I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

Finally you say you don't want to do another master's etc. But in reality if you do go down the Medicine route you would need to do a master's. It would only be a year (costs aside) and would open that door for you.

Re-reading your posts it appears you have at least 4 years to go with Medicine so I suppose really you need to question whether you can see out Medicine and then you need to sit down and pick out a programme you are interested in and can get a 2:1/1st in to stand a chance in IB/Consultancy.

Reply 24

Sprog63

I bet there would be internships/ training posts in the pharmaceutical industry around research or indeed sales where a medical degree whether or not you had practised but which gave you the qualification would be highly sought after.

Reply 25

Chief Wiggum

20

Original post by asif007

TBH I don't think you've really understood what I was asking. The decision is whether to finish Medicine from somewhere abroad and end up with a rubbish degree or move onto a different course and start from scratch in the UK. I've already looked at other UK medical schools and I know that none of them will accept me, that goes without saying. Either I go to Eastern Europe to finish Medicine which could take another 4 years, or I apply for a Maths/science degree in the UK. I only want one degree and I'm not doing any more courses after that - I'm fed up of studying for no reward so I will absolutely never ever do a Masters. My question is which degree do you think would be more likely to get me a job in Consultancy? Medicine or Maths/science?

From what you've described there, I'd have thought a Maths/Science degree in the UK might be better? Only if you definitely don't want to ever be a doctor though, obviously.

Reply 26

Gridiron-Gangster

5

Original post by asif007

TBH I don't think you've really understood what I was asking. The decision is whether to finish Medicine from somewhere abroad and end up with a rubbish degree or move onto a different course and start from scratch in the UK. I've already looked at other UK medical schools and I know that none of them will accept me, that goes without saying. Either I go to Eastern Europe to finish Medicine which could take another 4 years, or I apply for a Maths/science degree in the UK. I only want one degree and I'm not doing any more courses after that - I'm fed up of studying for no reward so I will absolutely never ever do a Masters. My question is which degree do you think would be more likely to get me a job in Consultancy? Medicine or Maths/science?

If you type in Charles University in Prague into Linked-In you can see there are many graduates from said university working in Investment Banking and particularly with GS in London. Whether they were medical graduates I don't know but clearly Charles University in Prague has a fair few number of graduates in IB etc.

Reply 27

Zorg

18

Original post by Gridiron-Gangster

Well unless there were mitigating circumstances no UK medical school is probably going to consider you for re-entry be it at the undergrad or graduate-entry level.

Not entirely correct. Though the odds are certainly placed against them, it is possible. I personally know of an individual who withdrew from A100 at Oxford, left with a BA and is now completing a GEM course and thriving.
If you don't want to be in medicine it is highly unlikely you would either consider applying or that the university would take you.

Reply 28

AnonymousPenguin

16

Original post by Zorg

Not entirely correct. Though the odds are certainly placed against them, it is possible. I personally know of an individual who withdrew from A100 at Oxford, left with a BA and is now completing a GEM course and thriving.
If you don't want to be in medicine it is highly unlikely you would either consider applying or that the university would take you.

Yeah, but he must have had a lot of years between his BA and GEM and even then he must have really worked a lot on that interview answer.

Reply 29

Gridiron-Gangster

5

Original post by Zorg

Not entirely correct. Though the odds are certainly placed against them, it is possible. I personally know of an individual who withdrew from A100 at Oxford, left with a BA and is now completing a GEM course and thriving.
If you don't want to be in medicine it is highly unlikely you would either consider applying or that the university would take you.

He withdrew but did he fail the course?

Most medical schools are hard and fast about the fact that if you fail a degree elsewhere you won't be considered for entry.

Reply 30

Zorg

18

Original post by AnonymousPenguin

Yeah, but he must have had a lot of years between his BA and GEM and even then he must have really worked a lot on that interview answer.

Nah, probably a couple of years out. Agree the interview question would require serious work, but so would any question.

Original post by Gridiron-Gangster

He withdrew but did he fail the course?

Most medical schools are hard and fast about the fact that if you fail a degree elsewhere you won't be considered for entry.

Perhaps I misread, I was under the impression Asif failed toward the end of his course. I had assumed he would be able to leave with a BMedSci or some equivalent.

Reply 31

AnonymousPenguin

16

Original post by Zorg

Perhaps I misread, I was under the impression Asif failed toward the end of his course. I had assumed he would be able to leave with a BMedSci or some equivalent.

EDIT: sorry, wrong bit quoted

I believe the wording is that any fail at A100, even if you got a leaving certificate of any sort, means that you can't get in. These policies have been getting more and more strict every year.

The more I think about it, your Oxon BA guy may have been saved by the fact that he voluntarily left after the BA - he never actually failed. If he went on to the clinical school and got chucked out he would have been in an even tougher position to get onto GEM. Getting chucked out is not that easy, and in my year not a single person has been completely thrown out (yet) - there have been a few deferrals and obviously some people had to go to London, but no hard fails yet.

Reply 32

Chief Wiggum

20

Original post by Zorg

Perhaps I misread, I was under the impression Asif failed toward the end of his course. I had assumed he would be able to leave with a BMedSci or some equivalent.

I think Gridiron-Gangster meant that the guy from Oxford you know probably voluntarily withdrew rather than failing?

Reply 33

Gridiron-Gangster

5

Original post by Zorg

Nah, probably a couple of years out. Agree the interview question would require serious work, but so would any question.

Perhaps I misread, I was under the impression Asif failed toward the end of his course. I had assumed he would be able to leave with a BMedSci or some equivalent.

No worries. Yeah what you described re: Oxford I actually know someone else who did that too. They decided they wanted to work in The City for a few years and then actually returned to do GEM etc. Some schools are a bit picky if you even "leave" the course i.e. even though you didn't fail etc. But failing on a course is hard to make a convincing case.

Also the OP has made it quite clear they're not keen on Medicine so with at least another 3/4 years to complete it would be pointless (IMO) to seek to go into Medicine again unless perhaps over time the OP develops that interest again.

Even then Eastern Europe is not an easy option. Questions aside about how highly rated the degree is (I don't think this is too much of an issue tbh), there's the factors of adjusting to a different environment/culture (Eastern Europe is not particularly welcoming to non-white people) and furthermore, picking up and mastering the language in less than 3 years before the clinical phase and a course with very high pass marks and a higher failure rate than in the UK.

A better option might be the Carribean schools (no language issues) where you can do clinicals in the US, St George's in Cyprus or the University of Malta.

Reply 34

asif007

19

Original post by zigglr

Just be grateful for what you've got there are people who would love to medicine but couldn't get in. I'm sure you can get jobs other than a doctor with a medicine degree

What is there to be grateful for? I put several years of work into Medicine and got nothing to show for it. The way I see it, not getting into Medicine at all would have been a lot easier to handle than making it halfway through the degree and being kicked out for failing an exam.

Yes, of course I could get other jobs with a medical degree. But getting the degree in the first place is such a pain in the neck.

Original post by Gridiron-Gangster

No I understand what it is you're asking but slightly misread the bit about Medicine i.e. you asked if you should do another degree at an RG uni as opposed to should you finish your degree at an RG uni.

The first question is how far did you get into your medical degree? If you only had one or two years left to complete then I think you should look into completing that degree if anyone will allow you to do that. If you it was at the first year stage then really you need to consider whether you would be able to complete another 4 or 5 years of Medicine.

The issue is not that the Medicine degree would be devalued not at all but the institution where you are doing it. Of course there are plenty of students from Eastern Europe who go into IB/Consultancy all over the world so universities in Eastern Europe are highly regarded but depends on the institution i.e. in the Czech Republic pretty much Charles University. You would also need to explore what said university's track record is like in IB and whether the likes of GS, UBS etc come recruiting there even if it is for their Prague/Eastern European offices.

Your next question is about dong a degree at a RG university. To really be competitive in IB/consultancy you of course want to be doing a programme at a strong institution like Oxbridge, UCL, LSE, Imperial, Warwick.....those are the prime "target universities". Possibly Durham, Manchester, Nottingham, Bristol and Edinburgh. But otherwise it's really the first five that will give you the best chance.

It depends on your A-Level grades too, were they in the A*AA/AAA range or higher? Without that you can't really be aiming for say Oxbridge and even then your UMS marks come into question with Cambridge at least. Then tutors will of course question why the sudden change and you would then have to explain the circumstances. They could then question whether your failure at medical school is an indication of whether or not you would be able to cope on this new programme especially at Oxbridge and then whether or not you are really passionate/interested in the course or only doing it because you couldn't think of anything else. Not trying to put you down I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

Finally you say you don't want to do another master's etc. But in reality if you do go down the Medicine route you would need to do a master's. It would only be a year (costs aside) and would open that door for you.

Re-reading your posts it appears you have at least 4 years to go with Medicine so I suppose really you need to question whether you can see out Medicine and then you need to sit down and pick out a programme you are interested in and can get a 2:1/1st in to stand a chance in IB/Consultancy.

I made it to the end of 3rd year of Medicine before I was asked to leave. So technically I only had 2 more years of the degree to finish. Now I effectively have to take a few steps backwards as I'll have to start 3rd year all over again in another country, and most medical degrees in Eastern Europe are 6 years which means I would have 4 years to do instead of 2. I'll be nearly 30 by the time I get a degree, which is such a waste of my life. I'm fed up and all I want to do is graduate from anywhere, then be done.

I appreciate you giving me your thoughts on how to get into Consultancy, but TBH a lot of that information is useless to me as I'm not even aiming for the top universities. Applying for Oxbridge or the top 10 universities isn't an option for me because I only have AAB at A-Level. I'm not interested in the top x number of firms either - a good consultancy job anywhere in any sector is good enough for me. Now that I hear rumours of some consultancy firms welcoming applications from candidates with any degree from any university, I don't care any more whether the uni I end up at is targeted for consultancy or not. It would be nice to have a degree that gives me the option of applying for consultancy after graduation, but I'm not holding out much hope of getting a job if what you say is true.

I know you are trying to encourage me to apply for the top institutions from where my degree would be most highly valued, but right now I have to look at anywhere I can get in with the years of Medicine I've done already, and not just the places I want to go to. If Charles University is really a good place for getting a valued degree for Consultancy then I would happily go there but the fees for Medicine are insanely high so I'm not even considering that one.

Basically, at this point in time I just want to finish what I started and complete Medicine. I don't care if it's a useless degree because in any eventuality I will end up spending years applying for better-paid jobs than a doctor. If that happens then I would rather be unemployed than be a doctor cos I just don't care any more. I'll take whatever I can get, and hope that it holds some value further down the line when I apply for jobs. If I go to Eastern Europe to finish Medicine, it will take me 10 years after finishing my A-Levels just to get a degree - by that time I will be exhausted and only want to follow my own ambitions outside Medicine that I've put on hold for way too long now.

Original post by Sprog63

I bet there would be internships/ training posts in the pharmaceutical industry around research or indeed sales where a medical degree whether or not you had practised but which gave you the qualification would be highly sought after.

Yes it's always been my understanding that I could apply for internships or graduate schemes in the pharmaceutical industry with a degree in Medicine. But what I'm worried about is that a UK medical degree will be more highly sought after than one from Eastern Europe. I know I've got to make the best of the options I have left - if it gets me a job in consultancy/pharmaceuticals then great but if not I would prefer to move on and find another purpose for my life rather than spending year after year applying for those training posts which I might never get. If there was a way to build up experience for those pharmaceutical jobs without working as a doctor, I would do that.

Original post by Chief Wiggum

From what you've described there, I'd have thought a Maths/Science degree in the UK might be better? Only if you definitely don't want to ever be a doctor though, obviously.

I've got to consider which universities will accept me with the A-Level subjects I have. I didn't do Further Maths so most won't accept me for Maths anyway. The ones that do are likely to be more competitive. With my subjects, I think I would get onto a science course more easily but I'm not convinced whether that will get me a job in Consultancy or not, and I think the employment prospects are (unfortunately) not as good as Medicine. I always wanted to keep the door open on being a doctor anyway, and as the fees in Eastern Europe will be cheaper than they are here, I'll probably end up having to go there.

Original post by Gridiron-Gangster

If you type in Charles University in Prague into Linked-In you can see there are many graduates from said university working in Investment Banking and particularly with GS in London. Whether they were medical graduates I don't know but clearly Charles University in Prague has a fair few number of graduates in IB etc.

That's only one university which, as I mentioned above, I'm not considering because of the high fees. I've already done a bit of research into the value of other EU universities for Consultancy but the information just isn't there. I can't see why a UK consultancy firm would give preference to someone with an EU degree over someone with a UK degree. The way I see it, finishing Medicine in the EU alienates me from applying for any job other than a doctor in the UK. Starting a different course in the UK will leave me unhappy and stuck with much less employment prospects than Medicine, which I was hoping to use to travel abroad and practise in other countries. But at the moment I'm more inclined just to transfer to a random university in the EU to finish Medicine and worry about finding employment later. Maybe I'll have to go on benefits, maybe I won't. I've wasted too much of my life studying so I just can't motivate myself to put any more serious thought into whether I should give up Medicine or not. I'll stick with it and hope I can survive.

Original post by Zorg

Perhaps I misread, I was under the impression Asif failed toward the end of his course. I had assumed he would be able to leave with a BMedSci or some equivalent.

I failed 3rd year so I wasn't awarded a BSc despite how hard I tried to get some recognition for the 3 years of work I had put in (plus another year to resit 3rd). My highest qualifications are A-Levels even though I've been told by doctors and lecturers that I have already completed enough exams and have enough knowledge to qualify for a degree. If I had been doing a pure science course, I would have had a degree now.

Original post by Gridiron-Gangster

Even then Eastern Europe is not an easy option. Questions aside about how highly rated the degree is (I don't think this is too much of an issue tbh), there's the factors of adjusting to a different environment/culture (Eastern Europe is not particularly welcoming to non-white people) and furthermore, picking up and mastering the language in less than 3 years before the clinical phase and a course with very high pass marks and a higher failure rate than in the UK.

A better option might be the Carribean schools (no language issues) where you can do clinicals in the US, St George's in Cyprus or the University of Malta.

That's not very encouraging at all. But if it's the only option I have left, I will go to Eastern Europe regardless of how receptive they may or may not be to non-white people (I think that's wrong though, people do seem to be welcoming enough, at least in the capital cities). I am currently applying to transfer to Malta so I would instantly pick that over Eastern Europe, provided I can pass all their entrance exams. Med schools in the Caribbean are stupidly expensive though, so that's another one I won't be considering despite how appealing it is in terms of language. Haven't looked at St George's though, will do some research on that one.

Reply 35

Gridiron-Gangster

5

Original post by asif007

...

I can only advise from my own personal experience of IB/Consultancy and those of colleagues etc. Regardless of the prestige of the firm, competition for jobs in the sector is incredibly fierce. Not every Oxbridge graduate is going to work at GS and so and so forth. All firms want the best so it would not be a simply case of doing "whatever degree for whatever job". You don't want to do any old degree e.g. say at a former polytechnic if it's not worth the paper it's printed on. Also the whole "I'd rather go ten yeas unemployed than be a doctor", what a stupid thing to say.

You seem to be under the impression that IB/Consultancy is an automatic road to riches and/or that you will have a job waiting for you upon graduation which is totally ridiculous. You need to research carefully what you wish to do and where you can get into with AAB grades which are certainly not bad grades (I got those after resitting albeit almost 10 years ago now) but I guess since the A* grade came into play, they've been devalued. IB/Consultancy is not an easy job either whilst the rewards financially might be better (in the short term) over Medicine, you lack the job security and the hours can be just as long and intense as Medicine if not more so. Indeed, if you worked in the private sector in Medicine either here or in the US the financial rewards are fantastic. The NHS was never going to be a cash cow but I suppose a guarantee of 70K as a consultant isn't too bad, just fit in private work. That's another debate though.

You talk about universities etc. Linked-In will show you a variety of grads across the world and as I told you there are a fair few Charles Uni grads working in The City and at GS which demonstrates that clearly they are prepared to recruit from such universities ahead of UK grads. They're EU grads so don't require a work visa as such so no additional costs to the firm.

I find that regardless of what I or anyone else says, you will either knock back our advice so there is no point in advising you further. Opportunities are out there but there has to be an element of commitment and hard work on your part and what I seem to be getting as "Oh I am fed up of working I don't want to work but I want it all."

The truth is and harsh as this will sound is that you failed your medical degree and were kicked out. This currently to any other university or employer is not a good sign and you need to be thinking about how you can improve that situation. Even if you go away and got a 1st at another university, the question will still arise at interviews as to why you failed at med school. Sure not everyone is cut out to be a doctor but if there's one thing that Medicine and IB/Consultancy have in common is that they require hard work, long hours and are demanding both physically and emotionally of course with different things at stake. If you can't be bothered to motivate yourself atm what guarantee is there you will do that on another course and get even at least a 2:1? Anything less and you might as well forget IB/consultancy.

I will make one last suggestion: You've completed two years at university and could use this towards an Open University "Open Honours degree". This would effectively mean you could only do one further year of study and get a Bachelor's degree. It's hard work motivating yourself for self-directed learning but OU degrees are highly valued and if you got a 2:1/1st you could do master's at somewhere prestigious like Oxbridge or Ivy League and that would boost your chances of a good job in IB/Consultancy. I should know. Ain't that right Juno?

Reply 36

El Salvador

21

I'd imagine you can just treat your degree as a general degree after you graduate, or work somewhere with less medical responsibilities such as in a school.

Reply 37

El Salvador

21

Original post by confused1235

true i have considered research, but some training is still kinda needed for medical research , it will be quite hard to get the funding without that kind of experience.

You don't have to do medical research. You can do postgrad at a related but different field then research.

Biology maybe? Pharmacy?

Reply 38

*pitseleh*

20

Original post by zigglr

Just be grateful for what you've got there are people who would love to medicine but couldn't get in. I'm sure you can get jobs other than a doctor with a medicine degree

Sure, appreciate the privileged position you're in, OP. But beyond that, please don't take any notice of people who play the 'other people would love to have that chance' card. You don't owe other applicants.

I understand your pain - I've wanted to quit a number of times, even since pre-clinical years, but every time family and friends have convinced me that it'll get better. And it has, a bit. What's been keeping me going the last few years is the hope that I will still enjoy the job at the end of it all, and the fact that while there are (and always have been) other careers that interest me, I'm not invested in any of them, and nor could I just walk out of Medicine into one of them. The best advice I've been given on the subject was this: you should only drop out if there's something you're sure you want to do more than Medicine - drop out because you positively want to do something else, not because you feel unhappy in Medicine and just want to run away from it. Otherwise you're burning one bridge before you've even figured out if there's another one you like the look of, never mind actually crossing it. Also don't forget that there are plenty of qualified doctors who didn't enjoy their time at medical school, but who are now happy in their job. I'm hoping I'll be one of those; hopefully you could be, too.

I'm not saying you shouldn't drop out. Just try to remember that not enjoying it now doesn't automatically mean you won't enjoy it in the future. Good luck with whatever decision you make. :smile: