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Cambridge students cancel theme party over 'cultural appropriation' fears

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Original post by queen-bee
Y'all wanna turn this into a witch hunt so bad, I know secretly some of these kids believe cultural appropriation exists but don't want to risk looking uncool on an anonymous student forum.


I'm only joking about @Ethereal World tagging the wrong person. :s-smilie: No witch hunt on my part. :beard:

Also, speaking only for myself: I don't believe cultural appropriation is a real thing, secretly or otherwise, and I'd encourage you to take what people say at face value instead of assuming the worst motives for them acting in a way that you don't like. I don't adhere to my position because it's 'cool' -- I get plenty of flak for holding unpopular opinions.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Hydeman
I'm only joking about @Ethereal World tagging the wrong person. :s-smilie: No witch hunt on my part. :beard:

Also, speaking only for myself: I don't believe cultural appropriation is a real thing, secretly or otherwise, and I'd encourage you to take what people say at face value instead of assuming the worst motives for them acting in a way that you don't like.


I'm sorry but whenever people talk about individual cases of cultural appropriation,it's not in a good way. The intent of the person attempting appropriate said culture always appears to be malicious in some form,from what I have observed anyway but feel free to show me otherwise
Original post by queen-bee
Most of the threads where I do talk about my heritage concerns the Middle East,so it's relevant. I have been insulted many times and racially abused on here for being an Arab but not once for being an Italian. So what if it's on my profile? My heritage is part of my identity lol


That is what I don't understand, why do you put so my weight on your heritage when it is so irrelevant.

I don't see why you care so much about your heritage.
Original post by queen-bee
I'm sorry but whenever people talk about individual cases of cultural appropriation,it's not in a good way. The intent of the person attempting appropriate said culture always appears to be malicious in some form,from what I have observed anyway but feel free to show me otherwise


So you dressing as Cleopatra was malicious?
Original post by DiddyDec
That is what I don't understand, why do you put so my weight on your heritage when it is so irrelevant.

I don't see why you care so much about your heritage.


I don't 'care' so much but my heritage is what makes me who I am. What a silly question. Maybe your heritage is irrelevant to you but in certain other countries,one's heritage is a huge part of their identity and something to be proud of especially in the Middle East. I really don't get that sense in the UK so I can see why you might say that
Original post by DiddyDec
So you dressing as Cleopatra was malicious?


Nope. I wasn't doing it intentionally and had no idea that cultural appropriation existed back in my uni days and cleopatra is middle eastern/medittaranean,so is it really cultural appropriation?
The real tragedy is these morons go to Cambridge. Are the entry standards so low these days that SJW can get in?
Original post by whorace
The real tragedy is these morons go to Cambridge. Are the entry standards so low these days that SJW can get in?


I don't think they ask that at the interview
Original post by queen-bee
Nope. I wasn't doing it intentionally and had no idea that cultural appropriation existed back in my uni days and cleopatra is middle eastern/medittaranean,so is it really cultural appropriation?

She was Macedonian Greek. Yes even if you are not aware it doesn't void it. You culturally appropriated their culture without understanding history or context. But was it malicious?
Original post by queen-bee
I'm sorry but whenever people talk about individual cases of cultural appropriation,it's not in a good way. The intent of the person attempting appropriate said culture always appears to be malicious in some form,from what I have observed anyway but feel free to show me otherwise


The problem here is that you aren't following a straight line of thought (from what I can see, and I mean that in the nicest way possible). You keep declaring people 'victims' before we've even established that they are -- you seem to operate on the assumption that they are victims by default and that any debate must proceed only after accepting this to be true, which is just not how you debate an issue of this kind.

Anyway, plenty of examples have been cited on this thread. Curry, or the heavily modified version of it found in British restaurants, is a popular food in Britain. If I make some right now, am I stealing something from the Indian community? If you say yes, then you must prove that they had ownership/copyright of this in the first place, which you haven't done so far.

You have also not managed to reconcile your pro-integration worldview with this culture-ownership model that you're arguing for. You cannot have an assimilated multicultural society if you insist on these nonsense barriers that make it taboo to eat the wrong thing, wear the wrong clothes, or get the wrong haircut. The proper word for that is (self-imposed) segregation, and I'm sure that not many people want that.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by queen-bee
Nope. I wasn't doing it intentionally and had no idea that cultural appropriation existed back in my uni days and cleopatra is middle eastern/medittaranean,so is it really cultural appropriation?


Cleopatra was the Queen of Egypt. :erm: You're only proving how arbitrary and open to dispute these cultural boundaries are.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by queen-bee
I don't 'care' so much but my heritage is what makes me who I am. What a silly question. Maybe your heritage is irrelevant to you but in certain other countries,one's heritage is a huge part of their identity and something to be proud of especially in the Middle East. I really don't get that sense in the UK so I can see why you might say that


What makes you who you are is your actions and experiences, not your ethnicity.

Pride is reserved for your own achievements not your your results of the genetic lottery.
Original post by queen-bee
I don't think they ask that at the interview


They should do. This is a place of learning not idiocy.
Original post by whorace
The real tragedy is these morons go to Cambridge. Are the entry standards so low these days that SJW can get in?


The price of measuring intelligence using academic grades only, I guess. :dontknow:
Original post by Hydeman
The problem here is that you aren't following a straight line of thought (from what I can see, and I mean that in the nicest way possible). You keep declaring people 'victims' before we've even established that they are -- you seem to operate on the assumption that they are victims by default and that any debate must proceed only after accepting this to be true, which is just not how you debate an issue of this kind.

Anyway, plenty of examples have been cited on this thread. Curry, or the heavily modified version of it found in British restaurants, is a popular food in Britain. If I make some right now, am I stealing something from the Indian community? If you say yes, then you must prove that they had ownership/copyright of this in the first place, which you haven't done so far.

You have also not managed to reconcile your pro-integration worldview with this culture-ownership model that you're arguing for. You cannot have an assimilated multicultural society if you insist on this nonsense barriers that make it taboo to eat the wrong thing, wear the wrong clothes, or get the wrong haircut. The proper word for that is (self-imposed) segregation, and I'm sure that not many people want that.


If they weren't genuine victims I don't think the universities would be genuinely concerned about creating safe spaces? And how do you define whether they are victims or not,you'll probably say no as you don't believe in cultural appropriation yourself,so it's just bias?

I don't remember examples cited. What would be cultural appropriation is you disliking people from that part of the world and then passing off their cultural good as your own whilst still maintaining that you dislike said group of people

Nah,I'm a huge supporter of multiculturalism but I can see why cultural appropriation should not be seen in a positive manner.
Original post by Hydeman
The price of measuring intelligence using academic grades only, I guess. :dontknow:


Cambridge interviews students as well though. It's the same in the US as well, Yale, Princeton, Harvard, former great colleges which promoted a vision based on enterprise and intelligence replaced by a bunch of hippies who get good results in tests.
Original post by DiddyDec
What makes you who you are is your actions and experiences, not your ethnicity.

Pride is reserved for your own achievements not your your results of the genetic lottery.


Maybe for you,like I said,it doesn't on the place of upbringing. Some cultures emphasise this a lot more,so clearly we weren't brought up the same way
Original post by whorace
Cambridge interviews students as well though. It's the same in the US as well, Yale, Princeton, Harvard, former great colleges which promoted a vision based on enterprise and intelligence replaced by a bunch of hippies who get good results in tests.


They do, but the interview is secondary in the sense that the grades are the first hurdle. No matter how well you interview, you're not getting in with three Bs in your A Levels. They get flooded with applications from people with 95+ percent UMS averages, and given that that's the criterion that they use most heavily to decide who gets an interview, it's hardly a surprise that they end up with so many people who know how to never drop a mark in an exam but can't think to save their lives.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by queen-bee
Maybe for you,like I said,it doesn't on the place of upbringing. Some cultures emphasise this a lot more,so clearly we weren't brought up the same way


Is it perhaps that as an immigrant you feel more disconnected from your own heritage than you would otherwise be if you were not living in the UK. I'm not saying this as bad thing, merely trying to understand it.

Something I rarely talk about is that I am a 3rd generation immigrant to the UK. But I have never been to my family's country of origin or been involved in the culture.
Original post by queen-bee
If they weren't genuine victims I don't think the universities would be genuinely concerned about creating safe spaces?


We're definitely going in circles now, because I've explained this twice, this being the most recent instance:

Original post by Hydeman
As Good bloke explained earlier, you're conflating two different things.

Anyway, I explained this to you before: they are simply capitulating to the stupid demands of students whose money they need to be able to do all the things that they want to do as institutions. I'd be seriously worried if leading universities were doing this out of a principled commitment to protecting their students from being exposed to ideas that they don't like.

(Bearing in mind now that this has almost nothing to do with 'cultural appropriation.' Safe spaces are a tangentially related issue, but are quite distinct from the grievances being discussed right now.)


And how do you define whether they are victims or not,you'll probably say no as you don't believe in cultural appropriation yourself,so it's just bias?


That would be the case if I held on to this belief irrationally. But I don't; I've argued my case as best as I can, and I welcome any challenge to it from anybody at all (who isn't on my ignore list :innocent:).

My issue here is that you refer to them as victims before any consensus has been reached on whether they are victims. I thought about highlighting this earlier: there was one instance where you were discussing whether they were victims while at the same time referring to them as such, which I thought odd, but meh. Too late to look for it now.

We determine whether they are victims or not by looking at the matter reasonably. Why do they feel that they 'own' their culture? Are they entitled to prevent people from wearing what they like in a free society? These aren't questions that have produced answers thus far that would allow us to say that these people are the victims of any injustice that exists outside their imaginations.

I don't remember examples cited.


This isn't true. Good bloke cited a number of examples, as did TimmonaPortella, as did I (well, I cited two). You even briefly addressed some of them.

What would be cultural appropriation is you disliking people from that part of the world and then passing off their cultural good as your own whilst still maintaining that you dislike said group of people


I think one of the great problems with this discussion is that you, speaking on behalf of the people who believe that this is a real thing, don't have a very consistent definition of what you mean by this. I don't mean that as a personal attack, but previously you've defined it as exploitation/taking advantage of/taking credit for minority cultures (with a less than satisfactory explanation for why the majority/minority distinction is at all relevant if we consider this objectively).

On further questioning, you've defined 'exploitation/taking advantage of/taking credit for' as adopting parts of the culture with malicious intent and, when this has been shown to be unworkable and arbitrary by counter-example, you've retreated and said that you don't understand it that well yourself and aren't an expert, only to repeat the same things moments later.

I just don't think this is a tenable line of argument, circular as it is. :dontknow:

Nah,I'm a huge supporter of multiculturalism but I can see why cultural appropriation should not be seen in a positive manner.


This makes no sense, for the reasons that I've previously explained. You don't support multiculturalism if you support people feeling entitled to their culture in a way that encourages segregation.

Edit: This is also an example where you talk about something whose existence/severity is in dispute in a way that assumes that this information has already been agreed upon. It hasn't; we're still talking about it.
(edited 8 years ago)

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