Should Medicine be Graduate Entry Only?

Are we really all pretending that shadowing a receptionist is actually useful for becoming a doctor?

I know doctors are beaten down into being self-flaggellating saps, but come on now.

For one day in med school? Yeah sure. Should also do a day with a nurse, physio, OT, pharmacist. Could make a week out of it!

Probably not great work experience though tbh.

I don't recall ever be shadowed by anyone other than medical students as a doctor which is interesting because I was required to shadow nurses, HCAs, dieticians, physios, OTs and pharmacists during my training.

But then again, we're naughty arrogant doctors who need to learn to be humble and not rude, stuck up elitists, right?

(inspired by @ecolier, as all great things on the medicine TSR are )

Basically what it says on the tin. There's a poll, but I'd be more interested to hear people say why they think what they think in a post!

My position: no, because as an 18yo I don't feel that I'd be made 'more ready' to do medicine by an undergrad degree, and 18yos do appear to be capable of doing the degree and having some success.

I've mentioned people from medicine forums who might be interested

Are we really all pretending that shadowing a receptionist is actually useful for becoming a doctor?

I know doctors are beaten down into being self-flaggellating saps, but come on now.

I don't recall ever be shadowed by anyone other than medical students as a doctor which is interesting because I was required to shadow nurses, HCAs, dieticians, physios, OTs and pharmacists during my training.

But then again, we're naughty arrogant doctors who need to learn to be humble and not rude, stuck up elitists, right?

I think if you wre fresh out of school you may face some difficulties initially (there may be a higher chance that it may become slightly difficult to cope with the big jump in difficulty that medical school (or any uni degree entails). However, you may be less "burned out" and finance is less of an issue as many have said.

Going for an undergrad degree first can give you a good grounding, especially if its something life science related. This can make it easier to deal with the workload you face in med school. However, finances become a big issue here and I also think you may become a bit fatigued in the process.

Best of both worlds: A gap year. Gives you enough time to rethink your career choice and develop maturity. Is also like a constructive break where you focus on holistic development.

Interesting. I am a bit worried by the jump in content (don't know any med students IRL, my partner is in his first year reading biochem and his stuff is...intimidatingly different to A level, so not reassuring ) I suppose people manage, and again undergraduate med attrition rates are pretty low, but if you or anyone has tips

I have always been (perhaps unjustifiably!) skeptical of gap years, just because I could never really think of what I'd do on one, and most people I know taking one are treating it very much as a "gap yah" for partying and reapplying to Oxbridge (independent schools...). More realistically, I'd assume a medical applicant gap year would be a good opportunity for more WEx and volunteering, but most if not all applicants will have done some of that before applying. I know @ecolier as an interviewer finds that gap year applicants tend to be much better at interview, though - possibly because at 18+ you can do more hands-on volunteer/paid work?
A gap year would definitely make the application process less stressful, though!

Yes, I also find you can tell the difference between the gap year and school leaver applicants at interview. Grads are a different bunch again. There are some very mature 18 year old, but on the whole, I think that extra year benefits most people. It is also the last chance you are likely to get for a while to pretty much do what you want!

I defer to you guys, and there’s a lot to be said for just doing what you want for a year! I don’t know if it’s a bad sign that my immediate thought was “Classics!” and not anything medicine related...
I’m guessing that most people who take gap years work as HCAs or in healthcare volunteering for part of it? Or is it more varied?

They usually do a bit of volunteering, work in a non-healthcare job for a while and then travel. Sounds pretty Classic to me

That's basically what I did! Applied for deferred entry though, so was no more mature than direct applicants when I was interviewed.

I worked on reception in a FE college and volunteered for the winter in a Girlguiding centre in the Swiss Alps. Not medical at all but useful experience nonetheless!

I am late to the party here, but have a slightly different opinion so thought I would share it.

I think it would be a great idea if all potential medics did a 3 year Bachelor of Medicine (like St Andrews, although course styles would vary and may include more placements than St A) and applied for the 3 clinical years towards the end of the BM. You could have many more places available on the BM courses than there currently are for medicine, with the expectation that a certain percentage would progress to clinical degrees.

The reasons I think this are:
- it would give people extra time to decide that medicine was really for them, they either leave with a good degree or progress, natural wastage in the first three years would not lead to a loss of medics for the clinical years;
- it would be less elitist. It is a sad truth that people from high performing schools have a big advantage as they get better support at school for applications, getting advice and interview practice. There is a school near us which identifies an "Oxbridge and Medicine" cohort in Y9 and supports them in developing the skills which will get them places. Very few people from normal schools can get an interview at Cardiff, and it is much easier to get AAA at a high performing school than it is at an average school which rarely sees those sort of results.

People would not have the comfort of starting with 100% confident of progressing to the the next stage, but more people would get to the starting gate.

So a premed degree which you must do to enter the final medical degree? What proportion would you anticipate progressing? My thoughts in no order:

- Just more rigorous and specific selection in general. Given how much we spend on doctors throughout the career, I am always surprised by how few resources go into selection of the right candidates. Even applications for many office jobs tend to be just as, if not more rigorous. This goes some way to addressing that gap.
- Sounds stressful. I didn't experience much negative competitive behaviour at uni but you hear stories. Anything that does exist will be 10x worse here surely. But that's the price you pay for more rigorous selection I guess? Also, medicine kind of is stressful anyway?
- Not a fan of early clinical contact then I take it Or would that be part of the course too? Because if so costs start to rise, for people who won't necessarily be becoming doctors. Even Oxbridge do some clinical contact in the first 3 years currently.
- Won't it still benefit high performing schools? Unless your anticipated progression % is very low, they could still select for AAA+ candidates. Although I suppose its a green light for more socially inclusive initiatives, as even if you accept a CCC student, if they progress then they have proven themselves? Or could any uni offer a 'premed' degree, in which case % progressing may be very small?
- Would you be able to apply to any uni when applying for the clinical component? That would be very good for some, very very disruptive for others.
- If so to the above - you also have to ask about standardisation - what is going to ensure grades from these preclinical degrees are comparable. For example I presume entry standards would continue to vary so a simple decile system may not be at all fair. Would there be a preclinical UKMLE component at this stage?
- The myriad of confusing and crazily variable entry requirements for med schools is not a good thing. It certainly favours those who have coaching for applications. This system would likely get rid of much of that, depending on how competitive it stays?

I don't really think there will ever be such a radical overhaul, but it would be nice if more people had a chance to prove themselves and, as you say, £250k investment of tax payer money in training each doctor and a job for life could be awarded more rationally and fairly if there was a 3 year period to assess the suitability of people.

Medicine should be graduate-entry only, i believe. I wonder how many people would still be motivated into studying medicine if they were required to sit a bachelors degree beforehand. The number of applicants per cycle would definitely reduce

Yes, and it wouldn’t just reduce due to people losing motivation, it would reduce because not that many people can afford to take out student loans for a bachelors degree and then do GEM, which would require them to take out more (but only partial!) loans from the NHS and then self fund the rest, because it would totally feasible for the majority of people to do that. Ah yes, I really think making something already difficult for those from disadvantaged backgrounds even more difficult is a great idea 🙄