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    As somebody pro brexit myself, it isn't so much what laws to change, it's more the dodging of potentially terrible legislation in the future.
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    (Original post by MrControversial)
    I am actually qualfied enough to act as an expert witness and the EU cookie law was half baked. They have recently made a fuss about facebook while ignoring other real problems. They do not know about technology and are either attacking it superstitiously or milking it with fines to line their own coffers. They made one or two efforts in principle but now are completely out of their depth.
    I think this is you acknowledging that the EU is trying to do something in this area. It isn't really surprising that they don't fully understand the area - there aren't many people that do (you get this same problem in all sorts of legislation and enforcement).
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    (Original post by otester)
    EU membership has largely restricted what they can actually do.

    If you want to bring back well paying jobs you're going to have to have a red tape bonfire, something you can't do under the EU.
    When you say red tape bonfire, what exactly are you talking about? Come on, let's have some examples. Everyone likes to talk about getting rid of the red tape without actually considering what it is.

    So here are some examples I can think of. There is red tape that prevents employers from sacking employees on the spot. Then there is the red tape that ensures employees can contribute to a pension, that they can take a holiday, that they should work in a safe environment. Do you want rid of that? Can you remember the time when workers in dangerous industries regularly died due to negligence and got nothing in compensation? In food outlets, there is red tape that ensures businesses meet basic hygiene standards. Then there is all that red tape that protects us as consumers, ensuring we have the right to return faulty goods. In the digital world, we have a whole load of red tape that protects our data from being used maliciously or for commercial gain.

    Much of said red tape may well be European, but all the does is ensure that if you are in France or Greece, you have the same rights. Is that such a bad thing?

    So in your red tape bonfire, just exactly which bits of red tape do you cite as holding us back as a nation?
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    (Original post by TercioOfParma)
    As somebody pro brexit myself, it isn't so much what laws to change, it's more the dodging of potentially terrible legislation in the future.
    This is another one.

    Nearly all the decisions made in the Council are done by qualified majority voting now. We're hugely outnumbered in QMV (It's why we lose 100% of the time we oppose a vote).
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    (Original post by otester)
    I'm just saying what I want changed, I don't have faith in the Tory government fixing anything.
    Well, that is basically my point. People blame the EU for regulation and red tape. Sometimes even people in government do that. But the government always has a hand in it too, and I genuinely doubt that leaving the EU will result in any reduction in legislation and regulation - despite the claims of the LEAVE campaign..

    That doesn't mean I have any particular axe to grind in the regulation debate, I just don't think that a post-Brexit government will make any real changes.
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    (Original post by TercioOfParma)
    As somebody pro brexit myself, it isn't so much what laws to change, it's more the dodging of potentially terrible legislation in the future.
    You seem to have bought into project fear - big time. Sure the government is in a pretty good position to steer the UK through EU legislation, and get the results that it wants? I find it difficult to imagine what kind of legislation would be so "terrible" that 65% of the population of the EU would also vote to impose it upon itself.

    Got any realistic examples?
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    When you say red tape bonfire, what exactly are you talking about? Come on, let's have some examples. Everyone likes to talk about getting rid of the red tape without actually considering what it is.

    So here are some examples I can think of. There is red tape that prevents employers from sacking employees on the spot. Then there is the red tape that ensures employees can contribute to a pension, that they can take a holiday, that they should work in a safe environment. Do you want rid of that? Can you remember the time when workers in dangerous industries regularly died due to negligence and got nothing in compensation? In food outlets, there is red tape that ensures businesses meet basic hygiene standards. Then there is all that red tape that protects us as consumers, ensuring we have the right to return faulty goods. In the digital world, we have a whole load of red tape that protects our data from being used maliciously or for commercial gain.

    Much of said red tape may well be European, but all the does is ensure that if you are in France or Greece, you have the same rights. Is that such a bad thing?

    So in your red tape bonfire, just exactly which bits of red tape do you cite as holding us back as a nation?
    We can keep all the employment rights and regulations outside the EU. Immigration going down is my priority. The truth is there has been a utter lack of information on both sides of the campaign, no matter what direction you try and take the EU debate it will always be Economy vs Immigration it has been on TV for about 2 months and it is just recycling old arguements. I think if we could control our borders Farage wouldn't mind about being in the EU. I do not know I do not want my children to grow up as ethnic minorities.
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    You seem to have bought into project fear - big time. Sure the government is in a pretty good position to steer the UK through EU legislation, and get the results that it wants? I find it difficult to imagine what kind of legislation would be so "terrible" that 65% of the population of the EU would also vote to impose it upon itself.

    Got any realistic examples?
    You're aware project fear is pro remain right?

    You don't know what could happen on the continent, especially with far right parties on the rise. Look at eastern europe right now. I am not so much afraid for the here and now, I am thinking more in 50 years or so.

    The whole Holy Roman Empire for instance, the diet of augsburg's lack of inclusion of Calvinism caused all kinds of trouble. It somewhat mirrors the EU in the way there is one overriding law but nobles had de jure control within their own realms to an extent.

    As for the EU as a political union, It hasn't really existed long enough for something to go spectacularly wrong, save perhaps schengen (although that is a non issue for the UK).
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    This is another one.

    Nearly all the decisions made in the Council are done by qualified majority voting now. We're hugely outnumbered in QMV (It's why we lose 100% of the time we oppose a vote).
    Our weighting in the Council of Ministers is directly proportional to our population in the EU - just under 13%. So, of course we are outnumbered, but only in a fair way (if we had a greater weighting someone else would have to have proportionally less than their population).

    I saw some data recently that said that the UK was on the winning side 85% of the time when it cam to these votes.

    Incidentally, it was the UK that pushed for a system of QMV - before that any individual state had a veto over any legislation. So it was very difficult to get anything done.
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    Our weighting in the Council of Ministers is directly proportional to our population in the EU - just under 13%. So, of course we are outnumbered, but only in a fair way (if we had a greater weighting someone else would have to have proportionally less than their population).

    I saw some data recently that said that the UK was on the winning side 85% of the time when it cam to these votes.

    Incidentally, it was the UK that pushed for a system of QMV - before that any individual state had a veto over any legislation. So it was very difficult to get anything done.
    What about % of total contributions?
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    I think this is you acknowledging that the EU is trying to do something in this area. It isn't really surprising that they don't fully understand the area - there aren't many people that do (you get this same problem in all sorts of legislation and enforcement).
    I'd rather be concerned with the challenge of educating the inhabitants our Island than having to educate the entire continent.
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    Our weighting in the Council of Ministers is directly proportional to our population in the EU - just under 13%. So, of course we are outnumbered, but only in a fair way (if we had a greater weighting someone else would have to have proportionally less than their population).

    I saw some data recently that said that the UK was on the winning side 85% of the time when it cam to these votes.

    Incidentally, it was the UK that pushed for a system of QMV - before that any individual state had a veto over any legislation. So it was very difficult to get anything done.
    Malta has 15 times more representatives per capita than we do in the Council - stinks of the days before we got rid of Rotten Boroughs. True gerrymandering. (If you're interested, Malta is a more modest ten times better represented than us in the Parliament.)

    We're on the winning side a lot, yes, but when we vote against something we lose 100% of the time - that isn't an exaggeration.

    And I'm sorely dissapointed we pushed for QMV and that we got rid of our veto, but an advantage of being in a democracy is that we can unelect this government and have a new government fix the mistakes they made - not possible within the EU, however, as most of it is unelected and unaccountable to us. The EU also hates going back on what it does. Its modus operandi is creeping progress. To quote Juncker -

    "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."
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    (Original post by Trumpo Trumpu)
    We can keep all the employment rights and regulations outside the EU. Immigration going down is my priority. The truth is there has been a utter lack of information on both sides of the campaign, no matter what direction you try and take the EU debate it will always be Economy vs Immigration it has been on TV for about 2 months and it is just recycling old arguements. I think if we could control our borders Farage wouldn't mind about being in the EU. I do not know I do not want my children to grow up as ethnic minorities.
    Fair points. So the question is - can we control our borders? Can anywhere truly control their borders? We live on an island after all, so if someone turns up on the beach in a rubber dinghy, where do you send them?
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    When you say red tape bonfire, what exactly are you talking about? Come on, let's have some examples. Everyone likes to talk about getting rid of the red tape without actually considering what it is.

    So here are some examples I can think of. There is red tape that prevents employers from sacking employees on the spot. Then there is the red tape that ensures employees can contribute to a pension, that they can take a holiday, that they should work in a safe environment. Do you want rid of that? Can you remember the time when workers in dangerous industries regularly died due to negligence and got nothing in compensation? In food outlets, there is red tape that ensures businesses meet basic hygiene standards. Then there is all that red tape that protects us as consumers, ensuring we have the right to return faulty goods. In the digital world, we have a whole load of red tape that protects our data from being used maliciously or for commercial gain.

    Much of said red tape may well be European, but all the does is ensure that if you are in France or Greece, you have the same rights. Is that such a bad thing?

    So in your red tape bonfire, just exactly which bits of red tape do you cite as holding us back as a nation?
    Everything.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Fair points. So the question is - can we control our borders? Can anywhere truly control their borders? We live on an island after all, so if someone turns up on the beach in a rubber dinghy, where do you send them?
    On an aeroplane back to wherever they sailed in from.

    Of course we can control our borders. We have an army, and all authority derives from that.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Fair points. So the question is - can we control our borders? Can anywhere truly control their borders? We live on an island after all, so if someone turns up on the beach in a rubber dinghy, where do you send them?
    Well they would not be welcome in Britain I would send them back , if we do not know where they are from i would get a translator if they no comment it our military will pull the trigger
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    The real underpinning of the anti-immigration Farage Brexiters argument is relatively obvious - and that's racism/xenophobia. God forbid that there be more black people than white people. No, we as whites must be the superior race - outnumbering everyone else otherwise we lose dominance. That's what it's about. And that is exactly why people who are anti-immigration want to leave the EU. They are threatened by the number of non-whites as they view them as "not one of us" and thus they want to seek control. Just like all throughout history. The root of anti-immigration at this point is total xenophobia. Who gives a flying sausage whether the guy next door to me is polish? Funnily enough, that guy is probably your dentist or doctor. An active and positive contribution to our society. Funny how xenophobics like to jump between two arguments and contradict themselves. It's always "they're taking our jobs!", but it's also "they are lazy, good for nothing benefit scroungers!". Interesting. Of course, these people would never admit it though.
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    (Original post by Louise12307)
    The real underpinning of the anti-immigration Farage Brexiters argument is relatively obvious - and that's racism/xenophobia. God forbid that there be more black people than white people. No, we as whites must be the superior race - outnumbering everyone else otherwise we lose dominance. That's what it's about. And that is exactly why people who are anti-immigration want to leave the EU. They are threatened by the number of non-whites as they view them as "not one of us" and thus they want to seek control. Just like all throughout history. The root of anti-immigration at this point is total xenophobia. Who gives a flying sausage whether the guy next door to me is polish? Funnily enough, that guy is probably your dentist or doctor. An active and positive contribution to our society. Funny how xenophobics like to jump between two arguments and contradict themselves. It's always "they're taking our jobs!", but it's also "they are lazy, good for nothing benefit scroungers!". Interesting. Of course, these people would never admit it though.
    this is projection

    People care about the economic impacts of immigration, not the immigrants themselves.

    You're being a bit lazy with this thinking here, trying to brand literally everyone who wants to see a stronger, independent and nationally governed UK as Nick Griffin in the flesh.
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    (Original post by Trumpo Trumpu)
    What about % of total contributions?
    I'm not sure what you are asking. If you mean that we are nett contributors, and our vote should be weighted by that, then I can't see how that would work because it would mean that those who are nett beneficiaries would receive no vote.

    My general view of being a nett contributor is that it is better to be a nett contributor and have a stable Europe, than the alternative.
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    (Original post by MrControversial)
    I'd rather be concerned with the challenge of educating the inhabitants our Island than having to educate the entire continent.
    The problem is that the expertise is also lacking in the UK, in as far as politicians understanding these issues goes, and the UK is probably not able to take on the likes of Google and Microsoft on its own - or at least does not have the will to.
 
 
 
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