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I don't think referring to your own indirect experiences justifies your moral position; it's like "Oh, but I have a black friend so I can't be racist!". Anyway, you might think we're heartless, but this isn't the case. For the most part, I'd much prefer it if terrorists or "suspects" were taken in alive, because to me trial and imprisonment is just punishment, and death is the easy way out. However, circumstances like these - where innocent peoples' lives are at risk - exceptions ought to be made. I personally feel that it is worth the death to ensure the general public's safety. In the unlikely circumstance that this man was "innocent", he certainly wasn't doing any favours for himself by running away from armed police. Apparently some policemen WERE uniformed, and when people bear arms, whether they're police or criminals, you don't try to run from them. You know there's more chance of survival if you reason with them. It is obvious in this case that this man thought running away was worth the risk of being shot down because he had no intention of living anyway; he was just desperate to get onto the tube so his death wouldn't be the only one.
Reply 381
mobb_theprequel
Would you have rather they tried to shoot every limb in his body - and compromised the safety of those on the underground carriage? The only failsafe way of immobilising somebody is to shoot them in the head.
Where else could they have shot him, if we work on the proviso that the suspect was [thought to be] wearing high explosive about his person?

There has been at least one incident that I can recall in Israel, of a Palestinian suicide bomber being ambushed - only to detonate his deadly payload in the ensuing struggle. If today's incident had occurred in a Jerusalem cafe, I have no doubt that Mossad and Israeli police would have done the same thing - and they're the authority on proactive means of putting terrorists out of circulation.


I'm no marksman but personally I would find it easier to shoot someone in the leg than head. In any case, were 5 shots needed?

Also, again I'm no scientist but aren't there some kind of non-leathal instant tranquiliser bullets than can be used?

I really hope there was concrete info behind that man being a considered a terrorist.
Reply 382
Goody1
He was being watched after the attempted bombings on thursday and when asked to stop he ran form police in a tube station and tried to get onto a tube train? if he truly was innocent why would he run on to a tube train full of people who would no doubt love to beat the crap out of someone liek that and would hardly let him get off at the next stop would he?



According to who? The police certainly haven't gone on record as saying that. If he was under surveilance, the police wouldn't announce it through the media - this is a criminal investigation, not a media fest...

Not everything reported in the media is true...
Reply 383
Jump
I'm no marksman but personally I would find it easier to shoot someone in the leg than head. In any case, were 5 shots needed?

Also, again I'm no scientist but aren't there some kind of non-leathal instant tranquiliser bullets than can be used?

I really hope there was concrete info behind that man being a considered a terrorist.


Yes but how long do train with a gun a week? to be in the armed police they dont just go around and pick randoms off the street, there is stringet accuracy tests considering that any situation there is likely to be innocent people around.

What if you shot him in the leg and he had a bomb and detonatedit neway?

As for the five shots make sure he is dead and it is unlikely that it would jsut be one person shooting and even if it was what difference does it make if he fired one bullet or five? aslong as the suspect is dead and cant detonate his package.
Reply 384
Jump
I'm no marksman but personally I would find it easier to shoot someone in the leg than head. In any case, were 5 shots needed?


What's the use of shooting a suicide bomber in the leg? You want them instantly disabled so they're unable to detonate while experiencing the effects of the shot.

Also, again I'm no scientist but aren't there some kind of non-leathal instant tranquiliser bullets than can be used?


They'd still have to be carried through the bloodstream. Even a second can count when someone could have their hand resting near the detonator. Shooting should aim to kill instantly, the guy in question was followed as part of their intelligence relating to the terrorist incidents. He was warned (as protocol dictates) and he chose to ignore those warnings. Chances are that he had a device on his person (according to eyewitnesses and will probably be confirmed sooner or later). If this is indeed the case, the police should be fully supported in their actions.
I'm pretty sure no "instant" transquilisers exist... they all have time lags, even if a few seconds. A split second gives a terrorist a chance for detonation; a chance that shouldn't be granted. And it is obvious why the head was a target - shooting peoples' legs does not debilitate a terrorist. They would still have their hands free to detonate something and/or put the public in danger. If you shot them in their leg and their hands, that would also take time. Also; I believe an eyewitness on Sky News said that they were pretty sure it was an automatic gun.. I'm not very up on my weapons but I think that means they shoot one after the other for as long as the trigger's pulled? If so then it would only take a few seconds to shoot that many. Anyway, I don't think we should spare any leniency where terrorists are concerned.
Reply 386
Miles
What's the use of shooting a suicide bomber in the leg? You want them instantly disabled so they're unable to detonate while experiencing the effects of the shot.


Which begs the question, why chase him onto a train before shooting him?


They'd still have to be carried through the bloodstream. Even a second can count when someone could have their hand resting near the detonator. Shooting should aim to kill instantly, the guy in question was followed as part of their intelligence relating to the terrorist incidents.


Fair enough.
Reply 387
Fluffy
According to who? The police certainly haven't gone on record as saying that. If he was under surveilance, the police wouldn't announce it through the media - this is a criminal investigation, not a media fest...

Not everything reported in the media is true...


"Police have said a man shot dead by police at Stockwell Tube station in south London is "directly linked" to anti-terrorist operations."

"BBC crime correspondent Neil Bennett says the man was under surveillance as a result of evidence gathered from the scenes of the four attempted bombings."

"BBC Home affairs correspondent Margaret Gilmore said officers had challenged a known suspect they had been following."


I think we can safely say the man was under surveillance.
Reply 388
Miles
He was warned (as protocol dictates) and he chose to ignore those warnings. Chances are that he had a device on his person (according to eyewitnesses and will probably be confirmed sooner or later). If this is indeed the case, the police should be fully supported in their actions.


According to media reports, many 'eye witnesses', including the person next to him on the tube in question, said that there was no 'belt' or wires, and he didn't have a bag. Just wearing a thick coat.

I guess this proves the point that speculation is bad. Did he, didn't he? We probably will not know for a long time. Hell, the media were saying that he was catagorically 100% the Oval Station bomber earlier on today. Now suddenly, he's not...
Erm... there would have been the minor setback of the PUBLIC being all around Stockwell station. The police would be criticised harshly if they shot from long distance and ended up shooting innocent bystanders. They obviously waited until they caught up with him so they could do it close range.
Reply 390
Fluffy
According to media reports, many 'eye witnesses', including the person next to him on the tube in question, said that there was no 'belt' or wires, and he didn't have a bag. Just wearing a thick coat.

I guess this proves the point that speculation is bad. Did he, didn't he? We probably will not know for a long time. Hell, the media were saying that he was catagorically 100% the Oval Station bomber earlier on today. Now suddenly, he's not...


We probably won't know the complete truth for the next 50 years...
Reply 391
Jump
Which begs the question, why chase him onto a train before shooting him?


He was running away from them a busy area would be my first thought.
Reply 392
yelwalkietalkie
Erm... there would have been the minor setback of the PUBLIC being all around Stockwell station. The police would be criticised harshly if they shot from long distance and ended up shooting innocent bystanders. They obviously waited until they caught up with him so they could do it close range.


and waste vital seconds...

"Even a second can count when someone could have their hand resting near the detonator."

To be honest even if he wasn't a terrorist I doubt the authorities will let the media know anytime soon.
Reply 393
Miles
"Police have said a man shot dead by police at Stockwell Tube station in south London is "directly linked" to anti-terrorist operations."

"BBC crime correspondent Neil Bennett says the man was under surveillance as a result of evidence gathered from the scenes of the four attempted bombings."

"BBC Home affairs correspondent Margaret Gilmore said officers had challenged a known suspect they had been following."


I think we can safely say the man was under surveillance.


But Sir Ian Blair and other key police spokes people refuse to answer that question - I've just been down in our lobby talking to our designated police officer, who also says the same.

BBC spokespeople said a whole lot of stuff on the 7th that turned out to be complete bull! So much for the BBCs recent decision to wait before breaking news to make sure reports were accurate :wink:
Reply 394
Miles
He was running away from them a busy area would be my first thought.


What kinda of suicide bomber terrorist runs away from highly crowded areas :rolleyes:
It could waste vital seconds STOPPING or at least slowing down to shoot a guy who might get away from you and onto the tube. It's all about weighing up the factors. I think these course of events have reaped the best possible results. Dead guy; safe public.
They had experienced guys on the job, obviously, and I think we should just trust their judgement.
Reply 396
Fluffy
But Sir Ian Blair and other key police spokes people refuse to answer that question - I've just been down in our lobby talking to our designated police officer, who also says the same.

BBC spokespeople said a whole lot of stuff on the 7th that turned out to be complete bull! So much for the BBCs recent decision to wait before breaking news to make sure reports were accurate :wink:


I know, but this isn't one of those minor details which the BBC blag in the chance of it being right. Even common sense could come to the conclusion that this guy was under some sort of surveillance to be followed by 2 plain clothed armed police officers. Yes, it may not be confirmed by Ian Blair, but when the BBC claim in a main article "Police have said..." there's hopefully gonna be some truth in it, whether unofficial or whatever. I don't think they like libel cases after all!
Reply 397
Jump
What kinda of suicide bomber terrorist runs away from highly crowded areas :rolleyes:


The kind that was allegedly shot dead earlier today? We'll see, maybe it was his prime mission to get on the tube..

The police don't shoot someone unless they pose a risk to the life of others. They obviously know lots of things we don't at the moment.
Reply 398
I think we have no choice but to trust their judgement. Fluffy's already pointed out that there have been plentiful confounding reports of what actually happened. (The guy tripped and wasn't wrestled to the ground) If he was an innocent person it's tragic but none of us are immortal, and my sympathy would be with the family of the man, terrorist or not.

We have no control, I don't understand the point in debating whether he should have been shot once or 10 times, on the train etc. We don't even know what really happened.
Reply 399
Miles
I know, but this isn't one of those minor details which the BBC blag in the chance of it being right. Even common sense could come to the conclusion that this guy was under some sort of surveillance to be followed by 2 plain clothed armed police officers. Yes, it may not be confirmed by Ian Blair, but when the BBC claim in a main article "Police have said..." there's hopefully gonna be some truth in it, whether unofficial or whatever. I don't think they like libel cases after all!


Doesn't mean it's true though - earlier 'police were saying he was the Oval Bomber'
then '
police were saying he catagorically wasn't'

'police were saying he was confirmed to be carrying explosives'
now
'police are saying no explosives were found on him'

Police and intelligence sources were '100% sure the Egyption biochemist was the bomb maker from 7/7' now he's not a suspect.

Speculation helps no one.

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