Death Penalty – should it be reintroduced into the UK?

All those who love a good fry up, because that is what it is, should stop bandying statistics about the Death Penalty and actually understand that if it was reintroduced, and with all guaranteed processes intact, an innocent person would be murdered by the State, Judge and Jury, and of course the executioner. I have a solution, on finding someone innocent and pardoned posthumously, we execute the Home secretary, hanging judge, Jury and executioner, preferably in public, and all you sicko's could have a good ogle at it.

Reply 81

jamesthehustler

19

Original post by SophieSmall

Yes it can.
:facepalm2:

If new evidence comes in and a new trial determines the prisoner innocent they will be released, dead prisoners however...nope they remain dead.

but the damage done to the lives of those involved would kill them anyway

Reply 82

Nefarious

16

I know the US justice system isn't an exact parallel of ours but in the USA at least 4.1% (and that's a deliberately conservative estimate btw) of the people executed by the state in the modern era did not commit the crime for which they were sentenced to death.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent

Do you really trust the juries and judiciary of this country to do better? Is it really worth the risk just so you can get your vengeance kick?

Our justice system is already messed up enough without further stressing it with the extra strain of having to manage the death penalty correctly, you save neither time nor money by executing people unless you dispense with the pretence of justice entirely.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 83

CAElite

19

I would say yes but only for middle lane/passing lane hogs and unsolicited telemarketers. We may have to draw up a extradition treaty for the latter but I believe it will be a just cause.

Reply 84

nulli tertius

21

Original post by Nefarious

I know the US justice system isn't an exact parallel of ours but in the USA at least 4.1% (and that's a deliberately conservative estimate btw) of the people executed by the state in the modern era did not commit the crime for which they were sentenced to death.

That isn't what the report says. The report says that the number of innocent people executed in the US is unknown. The 4.1% figure relates to the number sentenced to death. The report goes on to say that 36% of those sentenced to death are removed from death row because of doubts about their guilt.

Due to the failings of the US justice system (which are very different to the failings in ours), being sentenced to death may well be the best chance that a wrongly convicted person in the US has.

Most murder trials in the US take place far from national media outfits with:-

(a) poor quality juries (because the jury selection process which is designed to eliminate bias tends to eliminate the intelligent and knowledgeable)

(b) poor quality judges (state court judicial salaries are low, judges do not have the same social position as in the UK and many are elected)

(c) poor quality prosecutors (again many district attorneys are elected);and

(d) poor quality defence lawyers (unlike in the UK murder defences do not attract the best criminal lawyers but overworked salaried public defenders and a motley collection of attorneys with insufficient work taking the job on price competitive tender).

Being sentenced to death gives the case of a person convicted of murder a much higher profile. Suddenly the case will attract a much better quality of lawyer to handle appeals and in most cases the pro-bono assistance of lawyers and law students around the world willing to work on the case. The case is much more likely to attract state and even national media attention particularly as the risk of execution draws closer.

The innocent murderer on death row is in a far better position than the innocent murderer sentenced to life imprisonment who is unlikely to receive any legal assistance beyond assistance with a perfunctory first appeal. He is much more likely to be allowed to rot, unknown and uncared for, in the system.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 85

Nefarious

16

Original post by nulli tertius

That isn't what the report says. The report says that the number of innocent people executed in the US is unknown. The 4.1% figure relates to the number sentenced to death. The report goes on to say that 36% of those sentenced to death are removed from death row because of doubts about their guilt.

Due to the failings of the US justice system (which are very different to the failings in ours), being sentenced to death may well be the best chance that a wrongly convicted person in the US has.

Most murder trials in the US take place far from national media outfits with:-

(a) poor quality juries (because the jury selection process which is designed to eliminate bias tends to eliminate the intelligent and knowledgeable)

(b) poor quality judges (state court judicial salaries are low, judges do not have the same social position as in the UK and many are elected)

(c) poor quality prosecutors (again many district attorneys are elected);and

(d) poor quality defence lawyers (unlike in the UK murder defences do not attract the best criminal lawyers but overworked salaried public defenders and a motley collection of attorneys with insufficient work taking the job on price competitive tender).

Being sentenced to death gives the case of a person convicted of murder a much higher profile. Suddenly the case will attract a much better quality of lawyer to handle appeals and in most cases the pro-bono assistance of lawyers and law students around the world willing to work on the case. The case is much more likely to attract state and even national media attention particularly as the risk of execution draws closer.

The innocent murderer on death row is in a far better position than the innocent murderer sentenced to life imprisonment who is unlikely to receive any legal assistance beyond assistance with a perfunctory first appeal. He is much more likely to be allowed to rot, unknown and uncared for, in the system.

I re-read the report. You are correct in one sense, I did misread the statistics. The number of innocent people killed is actually statistically likely to be 2.5% of all sentenced (4.1 subtract 1.6) according to that study rather than the 4.1% I quoted. While that's technically better it doesn't negate my point.

36% is the percentage of people who get lost in the US system, that's another flaw with it, not a justification for the death penalty.

The best lawyers don't suddenly evaporate without the death penalty present, they'll take on the same number of cases and do the same work. Long term incarceration for an innocent person is no trivial matter either, but at least you can restore some of that person's life to them rather than taking away the whole lot at once.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 86

nulli tertius

21

Original post by Nefarious

I re-read the report. You are correct in one sense, I did misread the statistics. The number of innocent people killed is actually statistically likely to be 2.5% of all sentenced (4.1 subtract 1.6) according to that study rather than the 4.1% I quoted. While that's technically better it doesn't negate my point.

You are still not right. 1.6% is the current rate of those capitally convicted who are subsequently exonerated. 4.1% is the conservative conclusion about those who are capitally convicted and who are innocent. The statistic we do not have and the article says we do not have, is the proportion who are executed and who are innocent.

One would like to hope, but it is only a hope and I am not aware of any evidence, that one is less likely to be wrongly executed than wrongly convicted.

The best lawyers don't suddenly evaporate without the death penalty present, they'll take on the same number of cases and do the same work.

That isn't true I am afraid. There are thousands of law students in universities around the world assisting with US death penalty cases at the moment. There are none working on American 25 years-to-life cases.

The professional lawyers who are assisting with death row appeals have often only got involved with these cases after conviction and in many cases are doing it pro bono.

Whether you see the involvement of these lawyers and students as arising out of a sense of justice or thrill seeking or as a marketing opportunity (a marketing opportunity on behalf of the university in the case of law students), these talented lawyers simply would not be involved (and in the real world are not involved) in cases that do not involve the death penalty. That is in no way criticising their involvement, but it is retelling the facts.

If you are a poor criminal defendant in the USA you will get a better standard of legal representation overall (counting both trial and appellate processes) if you are facing the death penalty than if you are facing a lengthy term of imprisonment.

I am not saying that is a justification of the death penalty. You will see from my earlier posts that I remain opposed to the reintroduction of the death penalty to the UK; not because of the prospect of convicting the innocent, the risk of which I consider to be very low, but because of the number of wrongful acquittals a death penalty will produce.

What I am saying is that you have a blinkered approach to the realities of the US criminal justice system and are regarding the wrongful execution of innocent murderers is its central problem when in reality it is a side issue that has diverted the attention of too many lawyers and politicians in America for far too long.

Reply 87

Gos123

10

why ?
would it increase crime or decrease?
what about the cost, what cost will it have go through for it to be reintrouced?
will it solve anything?

No.
It's difficult to say, however the US has higher crime rates than the UK in spite of the death penalty, whilst the most liberal on crime have lower crime rates.
This is my main opposition to it, it's too expensive and actually cheaper to keep them in life imprisonment.
Not really, it's just a different dispensation of justice.

Reply 88

Arran82

4

I would much prefer hard labour to the death penalty, 12 hours per day 6 days per week.

Death Penalty – should it be reintroduced into the UK?

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