Israel can either be Jewish or democratic. It cannot be both. Watch

ChaoticButterfly
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According to John Kerry.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid...t_be_both.html

I agree.

Edit:

Since there is some confusion I'm just gonna quote anarchism101 in the OP.


(Original post by anarchism101)
This isn't about Judaism as a religion, but rather about Jews as an ethnic group. What Kerry is saying is that if a two-state solution does not come about, there will, de facto, be one sovereign state between the river and the sea, inhabited by roughly equal numbers of Jews and Palestinians. From that point on, Israel can do one of two things:

i) Accept all the Palestinians as equal citizens with political rights, thus accepting that Israel is no longer a specifically Jewish state.
ii) Deny the Palestinians equal rights, thus accepting that Israel is not a democratic state.
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jape
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There are plenty of democratic nations with established religions, but for some reason Israel needs to be held to a special standard. As baffling as it always is.

The Obama administration has for a long time regarded Israel as a tumour in the Levant, oppressing Muslims simply by virtue of its existence. It is stupidity of the highest order. Israel is one of our only trustworthy allies in the Middle East (the only one, perhaps) and is surrounded by people who literally want to storm the walls of the country and impale every Jew inside. The UN's determination to undermine and endanger the Israeli people is one of the biggest red flags that ought to tell us to abolish the ridiculous institution.
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Saba XD
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I feel like saying something but whenever I do, I'm labelled 'an antisemite' by the lovely people of TSR. So... :getmecoat:
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sleepysnooze
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it would depend on what he meant by "democratic"
in one sense, democracies can be theocratic, provided everybody can vote and criticise the government
but in another sense, democracies would be against theocracies when theocracies mandate that a religion must be the source of laws, not elections
but either way, I don't anybody in israel is asking for a theocracy. I assume he means that israel cannot be democratic and "persecutive of the minority" - that's a bit of an error of fact, seeing as that's kind of the whole point of "democracy" to some extent, but whatever.
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AIDS Skrillex
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Agreed.
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BobBobson
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(Original post by AIDS Skrillex)
Agreed.
America could either have a president with a fake birth certificate or be democratic not both

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Eunomia
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I agree as well, because a Jewish state means that non-Jews have less rights, such as not having the right to return for those who have been displaced. That would be even more problematic if the Jews and Arabs ended up with a one-state solution.
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Palmyra
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79% of Israeli Jews believe that Jews should be given preferential treatment in Israel.

48% of Israeli Jews support expelling all Israeli Arabs from Israel.

(Pew forum)

Kerry is obviously correct. In lieu of a two state solution, there are two possibilities: (i) Israel continues to occupy the Palestinians without giving them full citizenship - becoming an apartheid state and loses its democratic nature, or (ii) Israel gives Palestinians full citizenship and is no longer majority Jewish.
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Josb
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(Original post by jape)
There are plenty of democratic nations with established religions, but for some reason Israel needs to be held to a special standard. As baffling as it always is.

The Obama administration has for a long time regarded Israel as a tumour in the Levant, oppressing Muslims simply by virtue of its existence. It is stupidity of the highest order. Israel is one of our only trustworthy allies in the Middle East (the only one, perhaps) and is surrounded by people who literally want to storm the walls of the country and impale every Jew inside. The UN's determination to undermine and endanger the Israeli people is one of the biggest red flags that ought to tell us to abolish the ridiculous institution.
Technically, Jewishness is not a religion. People don't have to show proof of religious practice to be considered Jewish. It's about lineage, you must have a Jewish mother to be considered Jewish. By the way, the founding fathers of Israel were not really religious, many were atheist.

Obama did not regard Israel as a "tumour". It just tried to say that the settlements make Israel more hated and isolated in the world, and ultimately less secure.
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AIDS Skrillex
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(Original post by BobBobson)
America could either have a president with a fake birth certificate or be democratic not both

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Makes no sense. All your attempts at arguments are non sequitur.
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Palmyra
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(Original post by Josb)
Obama did not regard Israel as a "tumour". It just tried to say that the settlements make Israel more hated and isolated in the world, and ultimately less secure.
It baffles me that people try to claim that Obama is some raging anti-Semite with a deep hatred of Israel.

SCR 2344 was the first SCR on the IPC in 8 years, and Obama has let the least SCRs critical of Israel pass through the SCR (1) of any US President since 1967.

Not to mention the record $38 billion military aid deal he recently announced for Israel too.

If that's how pro-Israel Obama is despite hating Israel, imagine how hawkish he'd be if he didn't hate Israel!
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Josb
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(Original post by Palmyra)
It baffles me that people try to claim that Obama is some raging anti-Semite with a deep hatred of Israel.

SCR 2344 was the first SCR on the IPC in 8 years, and Obama has let the least SCRs critical of Israel pass through the SCR (1) of any US President since 1967.

Not to mention the record $38 billion military aid deal he recently announced for Israel too.

If that's how pro-Israel Obama is despite hating Israel, imagine how hawkish he'd be if he didn't hate Israel!
Yeah, Obama was one of the most pro-Israel Presidents ever, not because he wanted to support them (he notoriously hated Netanyahu), but because he didn't want to be considered as anti-Israeli by public opinion, since many people have irrationally accused him of being a traitor on any subject. Now that his career is over, he can finally express his thought. It's unfortunate that he didn't do that in the beginning of his term.
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Palmyra
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I think it's also worth noting that 62% of US Jews supported the U.S. either voting for or abstaining for UNSCR 2344, so Netanyahu and the Israeli right certainly do not speak for all Jews on this (or anything).
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DNA89
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Kerry talked long enough but it seems people cannot get it properly -these are mostly low-IQ Trump supporters- By Jewish he does not mean the religion but the race. Proponents of 'Jewish state' do not mean having Judaism as the official religion of the state, they mean having a state which requires being Jewish in order to being a citizen, and being Jewish according to Israel means having a Jewish mother. With reform Judaism, there are now changes , for example someone who has converted to Judaism and can prove that he/she knows about Judaism enough and practices can be granted 'Jewish' label by Orthodox Israel rabbis after rigorous examinations and observations which may take years. Israel is already applying these standards on people who migrate to Israel. There are now even DNA tests to prove Jewish lineage. So , a state can either be Jewish or democratic in this sense of the word. Israel does not have to be secular, but it has to be democratic. In order to be democratic, the very right to citizenship cannot be based on adherence to a race. Now, in an imaginary world, Israel could have been a Jewish state if it had not all these non-Jewish Christians and Muslims, but the truth is there are millions of them who are called the 48 Arabs (referring to Arabs who have managed to remain in Israel following 1948 declaration of Israel and forced migration of millions of Palestinians). I hope I have helped Kerry somehow getting his message through
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jape
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(Original post by Josb)
Technically, Jewishness is not a religion. People don't have to show proof of religious practice to be considered Jewish. It's about lineage, you must have a Jewish mother to be considered Jewish. By the way, the founding fathers of Israel were not really religious, many were atheist.

Obama did not regard Israel as a "tumour". It just tried to say that the settlements make Israel more hated and isolated in the world, and ultimately less secure.
Obama's actions regarding Israel during his tenure (I think particularly of the Iran agreement, but there's plenty of material there if you want to find it) illustrates his disdain for Israel. Settlements in terms of Israel just building whole new towns might be contentious to some, but the resolution didn't just condemn that. It also condemned organic growth of settlements, IE people building second bedrooms on existing homes because they had a kid.

Not that all this really matters anyway. The 1967 borders which the Palestinian Authority likes to claim as its de jure territory were rejected by the Palestinian government at the time, before they tried to invade and conquer Israel. To that end, I don't see why there should be much furor about the settlement building whether its wholesale or piecemeal.
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Josb
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(Original post by jape)
Obama's actions regarding Israel during his tenure (I think particularly of the Iran agreement, but there's plenty of material there if you want to find it) illustrates his disdain for Israel. Settlements in terms of Israel just building whole new towns might be contentious to some, but the resolution didn't just condemn that. It also condemned organic growth of settlements, IE people building second bedrooms on existing homes because they had a kid.

Not that all this really matters anyway. The 1967 borders which the Palestinian Authority likes to claim as its de jure territory were rejected by the Palestinian government at the time, before they tried to invade and conquer Israel. To that end, I don't see why there should be much furor about the settlement building whether its wholesale or piecemeal.
I didn't speak of the legitimacy of the settlements (for me they are totally illegal anyway). I said that the "settlements make Israel more hated and isolated in the world, and ultimately less secure".

It is absolutely insane for Israel to continue this politics that turn them into the world's pariah.
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Palmyra
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(Original post by jape)
It also condemned organic growth of settlements, IE people building second bedrooms on existing homes because they had a kid.
"Under George W. Bush alone, the Council passed six resolutions that Israel opposed – including one that endorsed a plan calling for a complete freeze on settlements, including natural growth."

SCR 2344 merely reaffirms the natural growth provision in SCR 1515, which was passed 15-0 in 2003. George Bush voted for SCR 1515, he didn't abstain. I wonder if he got anything near the same level of abuse and slander as Obama is getting for abstaining.
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Palmyra
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(Original post by Josb)
Yeah, Obama was one of the most pro-Israel Presidents ever, not because he wanted to support them (he notoriously hated Netanyahu), but because he didn't want to be considered as anti-Israeli by public opinion, since many people have irrationally accused him of being a traitor on any subject. Now that his career is over, he can finally express his thought. It's unfortunate that he didn't do that in the beginning of his term.
Indeed, it's very interesting that every US president since 1967 has had the same policy on settlements and been much harsher on Israel on many issues, yet Obama gets so much more flak/hatred in comparison.

If Obama treated Israel like Reagan did he'd be impeached.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of...319E97E65149CC
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BobBobson
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(Original post by AIDS Skrillex)
Makes no sense. All your attempts at arguments are non sequitur.
I'm on a higher level of thinking, you see?

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jape
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(Original post by Palmyra)
"Under George W. Bush alone, the Council passed six resolutions that Israel opposed – including one that endorsed a plan calling for a complete freeze on settlements, including natural growth."

SCR 2344 merely reaffirms the natural growth provision in SCR 1515, which was passed 15-0 in 2003. George Bush voted for SCR 1515, he didn't abstain. I wonder if he got anything near the same level of abuse and slander as Obama is getting for abstaining.
I wasn't interested in politics prior to around 2013 so I couldn't say how Bush was treated. But he deserves to have been treated the same. The policy is bad regardless of who supports it.

(Original post by Josb)
I didn't speak of the legitimacy of the settlements (for me they are totally illegal anyway). I said that the "settlements make Israel more hated and isolated in the world, and ultimately less secure".

It is absolutely insane for Israel to continue this politics that turn them into the world's pariah.
They're not illegal though, regardless of if you like them or not. The PR effects of the policy are definitely not great, however.
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