Is free will real or just an illusion?
Scroll to see replies
Original post by Picnic1
I
and not one that any of us could possibly do justice to in even a long post on here.
and not one that any of us could possibly do justice to in even a long post on here.
I certaily can't. I wanted to be an intellectual, but it doesn't pay at all, so you're now disuccussing with a casual blue collar worker who is too busy and to tired to make any good remarks. But thanks for the links anyway, I'll surely read them!
Original post by PTMalewski
I certaily can't. I wanted to be an intellectual, but it doesn't pay at all, so you're now disuccussing with a casual blue collar worker who is too busy and to tired to make any good remarks. But thanks for the links anyway, I'll surely read them!
Your remark is good! And my wage is about blue collar worker level
anyway. I didn't even finish a degree.
Original post by chelseadagg3r
Free will is the idea that we are able to have choice in how we act and assumes that we are free to choose our behaviour, in other words we are self determined. According to free will, a person is responsible for their own actions.
Do we have free will or is it an illusion?
Do we have free will or is it an illusion?
I think some things we have free will about but mostly we don't
Original post by Picnic1
Your post is a posit but not universally agreed upon as
some, perhaps lucky, people who aren't so dependent on the opinions of most people in the public space that we call 'reality' (outside of the private space of the home tending to be regarded in general as more comfortingly allowing imagination, allowing 'master of my own castle' thinking).
Your post is a posit but not universally agreed upon as
some, perhaps lucky, people who aren't so dependent on the opinions of most people in the public space that we call 'reality' (outside of the private space of the home tending to be regarded in general as more comfortingly allowing imagination, allowing 'master of my own castle' thinking).
My intention was to interpret determination as more universal.
For example, even if somebody doesn't pay attention to opinion of others, that is also the effect of his executed program. His brain structure is determined by his DNA, environment and everything he experienced and learned. So if someone is not dependent on the opinions, it's because that is the structure was build because of all the causes, like DNA, life experience etc. Like a falling rock, that doesn't hit an animal standing under
When you take a knife, you don't stab yourself because that is your free will and you don't cut bread because that is yout free will. You cut bread because your brain receives inputs from your body that says it's running low on energy, you want to live because you enjoy life somehow, because you're naturally programmed for the wish of life and you also experienced that many things about life are pleasant. Or you stabb yourself, because you experienced so many awful things, your brain is flooded with singals and all the chemical reactions of sadness and discomfort, that should push you to find a getaway from this bad situation, but because of your experience you find only other bad and unpleasant solutions, so you stabb yourself because that is the only idea the network of your brain can figure out from possesed data and way of thinking (determined by the network's structure, encoded expercience etc)
The distance between the private and the public space, is particularly broken down in modern times by the internet, television, radio. So, as
what constitutes what most people regard as 'reality' changes, as choices for most people increase, the number and overlapping nature of
'realities' in one person increases and one program ends up, often unconsciously, being the primary overriding one trying to make sense of or simplify the other programs.
So maybe you're right but there is always some extra thing that makes people do things outside of what their prior programming would be
expected, at least on the surface, to make them do. It might take a stunningly talented person, a stunningly beautiful person, for instance, to shake up the programs but is their 'stunning' nature really reality or is it the private space being reflected in to the public space as if the two
are the same?
Original post by Picnic1
So maybe you're right but there is always some extra thing that makes people do things outside of what their prior programming would be
expected, at least on the surface, to make them do. It might take a stunningly talented person, a stunningly beautiful person, for instance, to shake up the programs but is their 'stunning' nature really reality or is it the private space being reflected in to the public space as if the two
are the same?
So maybe you're right but there is always some extra thing that makes people do things outside of what their prior programming would be
expected, at least on the surface, to make them do. It might take a stunningly talented person, a stunningly beautiful person, for instance, to shake up the programs but is their 'stunning' nature really reality or is it the private space being reflected in to the public space as if the two
are the same?
So at best it would be a free will through system failure, so rather an accident than free will. And in my understanding, not a free will of any sort. If something fails in a particular manner, it is always because it was constructed in a particular way, and hit a particular obstacle.
I believe the same is with brain. It is structured and coded in a particular way, and even if something very unsuall is experienced by it, it is the very particular structure that reacts to a new phenomenon, and not some abrakadabra executing it;s transcendentall god-like independent will.
Original post by Picnic1
Your remark is good! And my wage is about blue collar worker level
anyway. I didn't even finish a degree.
anyway. I didn't even finish a degree.
Blue-collars can earn jolly well better than white collars, for example if they are heavy equipment operators or other qualified personnel.
It's not a bad idea to earn quite well in blue collar work, and do intellectual work as hobby in free time.
Many white collars are too tired with 10+ hours of work with some nonsense paperwork to be mentally capable in their free time.
I think people should respect the blues more- many have work that needs brains as well, and even more analitical, mathematical or geometrical thinking, while many of white collar jobs require mainly good short-time memory and dedication.
(edited 6 years ago)
The Libet experiment actually brings an interesting point in - do we have a 'free won't'?
Original post by chelseadagg3r
(...)
Do we have free will or is it an illusion?
Do we have free will or is it an illusion?
To have a free will, people have to be enlightened and an open mind, as a free will means to be able to choice what the best for yourself is. And this is the point where the problem starts: people are restricted in getting enlightened and an open mind by society and the social surrounding in which people grown up, be it the vicinity or the family, even the friends they spend time. Also, people tend to be manipulative what makes it difficult to have a free will. And our decisions in life are strong linked with the experiences we made, so experiences influence our actings every day and all the time. The degree of free will seems so limited in this view, but that is what free will is made of: up to a certain limit, we are able to decide by a free will, more or less.
(edited 6 years ago)
The biological argument which says that our cells are programmed to run a certain way and as a result,we don't have free will falls flat when it falls under any scrutiny. Is Isaac Newton's creation of calculus not his but merely the result of his cells interacting with society and his DNA? Of course not. Perhaps there was some influence which allowed him to come to that conclusion, such as the fact that he had food from society and his DNA created a brain so he could think, but that alone cannot be the only reason why he came up with calculus. Of course he had to think with his own mind. How come new ideas can be created when everything according to PTMalewski is ingrained in our DNA and comes from society. Under that view, no new ideas would ever be created for the fact that they were never thought of before in society and are not ingrained in our DNA. Our mind is comprised up of our brain, so saying your brain makes a choice instead of your mind means you don't have free will is weak.
You choosing not to stab yourself is your choice. Plenty of people stab themselves because they choose to. Your premise that you must have absolute power over your existence, such as having the choice not to eat to survive really only points to someone having to be a God in order to have free will. That's a weak argument, because just because a choice had a condition in order to be fulfilled, doesn't mean you aren't freely choosing to fulfill that condition and ultimately achieve your choice, such as having to eat bread to survive.
Also you assume people act rational with the information that they are given. Even if a person's environment is great, have great wife, kids, great job, people can act irrationally and kill themselves for no apparent reason. There is no DNA which forces a person to kill themselves, so in the end it ultimately has to be the free will choice of the person
You choosing not to stab yourself is your choice. Plenty of people stab themselves because they choose to. Your premise that you must have absolute power over your existence, such as having the choice not to eat to survive really only points to someone having to be a God in order to have free will. That's a weak argument, because just because a choice had a condition in order to be fulfilled, doesn't mean you aren't freely choosing to fulfill that condition and ultimately achieve your choice, such as having to eat bread to survive.
Also you assume people act rational with the information that they are given. Even if a person's environment is great, have great wife, kids, great job, people can act irrationally and kill themselves for no apparent reason. There is no DNA which forces a person to kill themselves, so in the end it ultimately has to be the free will choice of the person
The question of free will is really fundamentally a question of the nature of the universe and the principle of "cause and effect".
So first, consider that principle.
Do you believe it is possible for anything to happen WITHOUT some form of root cause ?
Can something just spontaneously happen just like that? Without a cause?
I find it difficult to believe or understand that it could. It is not the nature of the universe.
When we roll a pair of dice, our minds generally can not comprehend the infinite number of factors that are in play and so to us the throw appears "random".
But our intelligence and common sense tells us that from the moment the dice left our hands, the outcome was sealed at that point. The dice just followed the laws of the universe and their direction and eventual outcome were the result of lots of factors that were present in that time and space . . .
The angle the dice were thrown at
the speed they were thrown
their orientation when they were throw
the ambient temperature of the air
the resistance of the air
the hardness of the table they were thrown onto
the force of gravity
these are just a handful of the millions of factors in play.
So the outcome was merely the result of all those initial causes and factors.
Given EXACTLY the same factors in play at EXACTLY that same time and space, the outcome would be the same every throw.
What this means is that NOTHING IS RANDOM.
Nothing at all.
Everything is already in motion and all the gazillions of factors are in play exerting their influence on everything.
For every action/effect there is are millions of underlying causes.
Once you accept and understand that you realise that there can not be "free will".
We are not outside of this universe, we are inside it, we are a part of it. We are subject to the same rules.
Thus everything we do, we do because of millions of factors . . . millions of causes. What we "choose" is just the result of those causes.
There is then, no free will.
We are simply hapless players, puppets, in the pantomime of life acting according to universal forces. In effect WE are the dice, rocking and rolling our way across the table of life, bumping off each other, stumbling along.
Our outcomes, every single one of them were set and established from the moment the universe began. Our pitiful minds can not comprehend the enormity of the factors involved, the endless domino string of causes that have been going on since time began.
We are just dominoes falling in that pre-determined gigantic universal play set. Billions of years ago the first domino was set in motion and since then an infinite number of dominoes have fallen and continue to fall all around us. It's too big to comprehend. Yet we are aware.
We can instinctively feel how small we are in the universe and that we are not in control of any of it.
We simply react to the forces, factors, causes.
Our fate is already sealed
So no point worrying about anything
What will be will be
So first, consider that principle.
Do you believe it is possible for anything to happen WITHOUT some form of root cause ?
Can something just spontaneously happen just like that? Without a cause?
I find it difficult to believe or understand that it could. It is not the nature of the universe.
When we roll a pair of dice, our minds generally can not comprehend the infinite number of factors that are in play and so to us the throw appears "random".
But our intelligence and common sense tells us that from the moment the dice left our hands, the outcome was sealed at that point. The dice just followed the laws of the universe and their direction and eventual outcome were the result of lots of factors that were present in that time and space . . .
The angle the dice were thrown at
the speed they were thrown
their orientation when they were throw
the ambient temperature of the air
the resistance of the air
the hardness of the table they were thrown onto
the force of gravity
these are just a handful of the millions of factors in play.
So the outcome was merely the result of all those initial causes and factors.
Given EXACTLY the same factors in play at EXACTLY that same time and space, the outcome would be the same every throw.
What this means is that NOTHING IS RANDOM.
Nothing at all.
Everything is already in motion and all the gazillions of factors are in play exerting their influence on everything.
For every action/effect there is are millions of underlying causes.
Once you accept and understand that you realise that there can not be "free will".
We are not outside of this universe, we are inside it, we are a part of it. We are subject to the same rules.
Thus everything we do, we do because of millions of factors . . . millions of causes. What we "choose" is just the result of those causes.
There is then, no free will.
We are simply hapless players, puppets, in the pantomime of life acting according to universal forces. In effect WE are the dice, rocking and rolling our way across the table of life, bumping off each other, stumbling along.
Our outcomes, every single one of them were set and established from the moment the universe began. Our pitiful minds can not comprehend the enormity of the factors involved, the endless domino string of causes that have been going on since time began.
We are just dominoes falling in that pre-determined gigantic universal play set. Billions of years ago the first domino was set in motion and since then an infinite number of dominoes have fallen and continue to fall all around us. It's too big to comprehend. Yet we are aware.
We can instinctively feel how small we are in the universe and that we are not in control of any of it.
We simply react to the forces, factors, causes.
Our fate is already sealed
So no point worrying about anything
What will be will be
Quick Reply
Related discussions
- Am i cooked?
- anyone with experience with LMA sixth form?
- edexcel alevel English lit predictions 2023
- TV shows make me feel like my life is boring
- Would most girls filter out guys like Brad Pitt, Clooney, Dawney Jr and Johnny Depp?
- ocr gatsby essay a level
- A Streetcar Named Desire - Revision Notes for OCR A Level English Literature
- doing independent research (as a sixth former/highschooler)
- should I take a gap year before my maths degree?
- Evaluate the interpretations
- Nursing as a single parent - finances? Wales only.
- What game should I buy
- a level english streetcar named desire
- Edexcel A Level English Literature Paper 1: Drama 9ET0 01 - 7 Jun 2022 [Exam Chat]
- The “middle class” attitude of and universities
- Uni History degree
- Feeling left out
- Gcses 2024
- My Crush is Perfect except for this one thing.
- Sociology A level
Latest
Trending
Last reply 2 days ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 2 days ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 2 days ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Research Rankings of universities if you add Research Quality & Intensity percentagesLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?Trending
Last reply 2 days ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 2 days ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 2 days ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Research Rankings of universities if you add Research Quality & Intensity percentagesLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?
