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Would you feel betrayed by a second EU referendum?
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The first referendum was a gross betrayal of my trust in UK democracy because as an ex-pat I was not allowed to vote even though I wanted to.
While I understand and agree that it makes no sense for me to be voting in domestic elections in the UK, since I don't actually live there, Brexit is an issue with far-reaching implications for every British citizen irrespective of where they live and how long they have lived there. Voting should therefore have been an option for each and every British citizen of voting age worldwide who wished to do so.
I am seeing people scramble to obtain the nationality of the countries they live in because they are terrified of the possible consequences they will have to face once Britain leaves the EU. They should never have been put in that position without at least having the opportunity to have their say.
Given the narrow margin of victory for the "leave" vote, I can't help wondering if the result would have different in the event that all ex-pats had been allowed to partipate.
While I understand and agree that it makes no sense for me to be voting in domestic elections in the UK, since I don't actually live there, Brexit is an issue with far-reaching implications for every British citizen irrespective of where they live and how long they have lived there. Voting should therefore have been an option for each and every British citizen of voting age worldwide who wished to do so.
I am seeing people scramble to obtain the nationality of the countries they live in because they are terrified of the possible consequences they will have to face once Britain leaves the EU. They should never have been put in that position without at least having the opportunity to have their say.
Given the narrow margin of victory for the "leave" vote, I can't help wondering if the result would have different in the event that all ex-pats had been allowed to partipate.
Keele University
Keele
Original post by Bad Student
But people did want this Brexit - no deal is better then a bad deal, and the media has hyped this up to such an apocalyptic-sized problem, that people are getting into a tizzy about it for no reason, the EU would be wise to make a deal with us as they get more from us then we do from them, even if they don't, there are so many other countries that we can make trade deals with.
You are saying two things. One is defending and celebrating Brexit. The other is that people did vote for this Brexit -- this is relevant to what I actually said in the post you're quoting.
For the latter, I am not convinced that most laypeople even understand what this Brexit is involving. Let alone that they foresaw this type of argument when they voted and agreed with it.
For the former, I am not really interested in arguing the value of Brexit. It is odd to think that we can enter into "trade deals" which can only exist under the GATT and GATS in the form of RTAs; preferential treatment is of course prohibited by the WTO Agreement. In essence, leave an RTA to be able to enter into smaller RTAs. And these RTAs are becoming increasingly mega-, integrated, in-depth and complex.
Original post by FionaMG
The first referendum was a gross betrayal of my trust in UK democracy because as an ex-pat I was not allowed to vote even though I wanted to.
While I understand and agree that it makes no sense for me to be voting in domestic elections in the UK, since I don't actually live there, Brexit is an issue with far-reaching implications for every British citizen irrespective of where they live and how long they have lived there. Voting should therefore have been an option for each and every British citizen of voting age worldwide who wished to do so.
I am seeing people scramble to obtain the nationality of the countries they live in because they are terrified of the possible consequences they will have to face once Britain leaves the EU. They should never have been put in that position without at least having the opportunity to have their say.
Given the narrow margin of victory for the "leave" vote, I can't help wondering if the result would have different in the event that all ex-pats had been allowed to partipate.
While I understand and agree that it makes no sense for me to be voting in domestic elections in the UK, since I don't actually live there, Brexit is an issue with far-reaching implications for every British citizen irrespective of where they live and how long they have lived there. Voting should therefore have been an option for each and every British citizen of voting age worldwide who wished to do so.
I am seeing people scramble to obtain the nationality of the countries they live in because they are terrified of the possible consequences they will have to face once Britain leaves the EU. They should never have been put in that position without at least having the opportunity to have their say.
Given the narrow margin of victory for the "leave" vote, I can't help wondering if the result would have different in the event that all ex-pats had been allowed to partipate.
Dear FionaMG:
These are really good points. If we have a second referendum, then it would be worthwhile to consider a broader vote including a broader age range. Brexit will affect the next generation of the UK and many more to come.
Yours, Ken
Waste of time, so no, there shouldn't be - there should be a replacement of arch-remoaner May and the equally horrid Hammond, though.
Are some remainers hoping that the horrid handling of Brexit at the hands of one of their own will now dissuade people from voting for it?
May drags her feet long enough, eroding public appetite for it, whilst some Eurocrats act like petulant brats, so the vote tilts in their favour...?
Hm.
Are some remainers hoping that the horrid handling of Brexit at the hands of one of their own will now dissuade people from voting for it?
May drags her feet long enough, eroding public appetite for it, whilst some Eurocrats act like petulant brats, so the vote tilts in their favour...?
Hm.
(edited 5 years ago)
If we agree to another referendum and the result is still "leave" will remainers finally shut the **** up and stop whining? Yeah, didn't think so, therefore, I'm afraid it's a no from me.
You should not underestimate how strongly the British public feels about the result of the referendum being upheld. Excluding the minority of hardcore remainers, I think it would be viewed as one of the greatest political betrayals in recent memory, and it would probably be the final straw for a lot of disillusioned people who's distrust for the establishment has already built up to breaking point. I for one would be furious if a second referendum was held, and I will fiercely protest and resist any such skullduggerous attempts to overthrow Brexit.
Give us a break with that patronising crap. Everybody knows the only reason anyone wants a second referendum is because they hope it will reverse Brexit. No amount of sugercoating can conceal it.
Original post by Keele University Guest Lecturer
Would a second referendum be a gross betrayal of peoples’ trust in UK democracy as stated by the Prime Minister?
On one hand, violations of promises by people or governments are a violation of trust.
On the other hand, referendums are not a normal part of the democratic process in the UK and therefore it seems unlikely that such a violation would substantially undermine our trust in our democratic form of government. This conclusion is furthered by the fact that:
What do you think? Post your thoughts here.
On one hand, violations of promises by people or governments are a violation of trust.
On the other hand, referendums are not a normal part of the democratic process in the UK and therefore it seems unlikely that such a violation would substantially undermine our trust in our democratic form of government. This conclusion is furthered by the fact that:
What do you think? Post your thoughts here.
You should not underestimate how strongly the British public feels about the result of the referendum being upheld. Excluding the minority of hardcore remainers, I think it would be viewed as one of the greatest political betrayals in recent memory, and it would probably be the final straw for a lot of disillusioned people who's distrust for the establishment has already built up to breaking point. I for one would be furious if a second referendum was held, and I will fiercely protest and resist any such skullduggerous attempts to overthrow Brexit.
(a) there have been questions about the honesty of the information presented by both sides of the Brexit debate
(b) both sides have received fines for breaching electoral campaign funding law.
Finally, government and politicians could deal with this potential violation of trust by accounts, explanations, and, apologies, as well as by wording any second referendum in a way that respects the diversity of opinion in the UK about Brexit.
(b) both sides have received fines for breaching electoral campaign funding law.
Finally, government and politicians could deal with this potential violation of trust by accounts, explanations, and, apologies, as well as by wording any second referendum in a way that respects the diversity of opinion in the UK about Brexit.
Give us a break with that patronising crap. Everybody knows the only reason anyone wants a second referendum is because they hope it will reverse Brexit. No amount of sugercoating can conceal it.
(edited 5 years ago)
Yes.
A second referendum would truly demonstrate the contempt the political sphere have for ordinary people. It would throw democratic process out the window, and it would most likely cause a spike in support for the far right.
I hope this government (or a Labour government) can realise that a second referendum was and is not an option. The 2016 referendum was the decision to leave, and the 2017 election was the decision on what type of Brexit should be negotiated. We have had enough votes on Brexit, and it's time to just let it happen.
A second referendum would truly demonstrate the contempt the political sphere have for ordinary people. It would throw democratic process out the window, and it would most likely cause a spike in support for the far right.
I hope this government (or a Labour government) can realise that a second referendum was and is not an option. The 2016 referendum was the decision to leave, and the 2017 election was the decision on what type of Brexit should be negotiated. We have had enough votes on Brexit, and it's time to just let it happen.
Betrayed? No. Bored, confused, almost worried and definitely ready to die? Yes. Brexit is an actual shambles either way and I'd rather have it done earlier instead of endlessley referend'ed upon to create some sort of omnishambles
One thing that Brexit hugely affects in my family, as we live between England and France and have both nationalities (but born in England, English is my first language, say I'm English when asked) is coming back to Britain for university. To get the home student rate, you have to have been resident for three years in the UK or the EU. I can still apply from the EU and pay the ~£9000, but we don't know what the agreement will be after Brexit, and after Brexit is when my sister will be applying. It's extremely frustrating just not knowing what will happen, not knowing whether we should be moving back, or staying put.
Original post by Medrat
"Unlike elections to elect individuals, we have the added issue that the referendum has no time limit."
Can we have a re-run of the 1975 one then please? Thought not.
Can we have a re-run of the 1975 one then please? Thought not.
Different time, different purpose.
The EEC is not the EU.
Original post by mrjrc98
Different time, different purpose.
The EEC is not the EU.
The EEC is not the EU.
Precursor to the EU; widely considered to be most similar, for comparison purposes, to the 2016 referendum. Anything can be rationalised or explained away if parameters keep on changing. Exactly which referenda can be re-run and which should be left to stand?
(edited 5 years ago)
Original post by Keele University Guest Lecturer
Dear Readers:
Given the responses to date, I was interested if readers might consider engaging in two tasks. First, decide how the referendum in 2016 could have been worded or constructed in order to make people more certain about the implications or meaning of the vote? Second, if the UK had a second referendum decide what it would be composed of. Describe just how would it be worded and constructed?
Yours, Ken
Given the responses to date, I was interested if readers might consider engaging in two tasks. First, decide how the referendum in 2016 could have been worded or constructed in order to make people more certain about the implications or meaning of the vote? Second, if the UK had a second referendum decide what it would be composed of. Describe just how would it be worded and constructed?
Yours, Ken
1 The 2016 referendum exposed a flaw in UK referendum processes; that people and organisations were allowed to campaign for different and mutually inconsistant interpretations of the answers to the questions, particularly in that referendum, the argument for change. In a future referendum the yes/no, leave/remain etc campaigns will have to have the right to determine the concepts voted upon and anyone else will commit an election offence by suggesting that a vote for that option means anything other than that official campaign says it means.
2 I think another vote has to be a two stage one, like a French election, with Remain, the deal (whatever it is) and a single "hard" Brexit option determined by hard Brexit campaigners by mutual agreement (with the penalty of exclusion from the vote if substantial agreement can't be reached) in the first round and the top two in the second.
Whilst an STV vote would be democratically legitimate, it would be unfair because it would preclude any politicians from arguing for their second choice if their first choice comes last.
Original post by Doonesbury
The most likely outcome will be a GE brought about by parliament not endorsing Chequers (or any other Theresa May plan).
And then when we have some other version of a hung Parliament?
You can't make people vote on the issue of Brexit. I don't see Corbyn has done anything to lose any more votes but I can't see large gains either, because Remainers know he is not one of them. Nor can I see May bringing "peace with honour" and being rewarded by the voters for that, so she is probably going to lose votes to UKIP and abstention. The election in Scotland won't be fought on Brexit but I would be surprised to see Labour claw many more seats back from the SNP.
Original post by nulli tertius
And then when we have some other version of a hung Parliament?
You can't make people vote on the issue of Brexit. I don't see Corbyn has done anything to lose any more votes but I can't see large gains either, because Remainers know he is not one of them. Nor can I see May bringing "peace with honour" and being rewarded by the voters for that, so she is probably going to lose votes to UKIP and abstention. The election in Scotland won't be fought on Brexit but I would be surprised to see Labour claw many more seats back from the SNP.
You can't make people vote on the issue of Brexit. I don't see Corbyn has done anything to lose any more votes but I can't see large gains either, because Remainers know he is not one of them. Nor can I see May bringing "peace with honour" and being rewarded by the voters for that, so she is probably going to lose votes to UKIP and abstention. The election in Scotland won't be fought on Brexit but I would be surprised to see Labour claw many more seats back from the SNP.
LibDems to make massive gains and form the next gov on a Remain ticket.
Posted from TSR Mobile
The short answer is yes, as much as i despise referenda the notion that you can hold a referendum and then not enact it (the fact that remain would be on thr ballot of a second speakes volumes here) is absurd and absolutely a betrayal.
More practically though there is a near zero chance that May ever would given how electorally damaging it would be. I have voted Tory in every local and national election i have been eligable (voted ALDE in the 2014 european election ironically) but if any Tory leader betrayed the people in such a fashion, i would not vote for them in a following election. I say this as somebody who just wants Brexit done with as well.
More practically though there is a near zero chance that May ever would given how electorally damaging it would be. I have voted Tory in every local and national election i have been eligable (voted ALDE in the 2014 european election ironically) but if any Tory leader betrayed the people in such a fashion, i would not vote for them in a following election. I say this as somebody who just wants Brexit done with as well.
Original post by nulli tertius
And then when we have some other version of a hung Parliament?
You can't make people vote on the issue of Brexit. I don't see Corbyn has done anything to lose any more votes but I can't see large gains either, because Remainers know he is not one of them. Nor can I see May bringing "peace with honour" and being rewarded by the voters for that, so she is probably going to lose votes to UKIP and abstention. The election in Scotland won't be fought on Brexit but I would be surprised to see Labour claw many more seats back from the SNP.
You can't make people vote on the issue of Brexit. I don't see Corbyn has done anything to lose any more votes but I can't see large gains either, because Remainers know he is not one of them. Nor can I see May bringing "peace with honour" and being rewarded by the voters for that, so she is probably going to lose votes to UKIP and abstention. The election in Scotland won't be fought on Brexit but I would be surprised to see Labour claw many more seats back from the SNP.
Corbyn has been struggling since the anti Semitism remarks and general floundering but thankfully May has been just as bad in all other aspects
I know remainers who will now vote leave though, as they refuse to have it changed and no matter what people say, we finally got a chance to vote on something, both parties have false information but that is like any election
Personally get Umunna in .....
Original post by Kinyonga
One thing that Brexit hugely affects in my family, as we live between England and France and have both nationalities (but born in England, English is my first language, say I'm English when asked) is coming back to Britain for university. To get the home student rate, you have to have been resident for three years in the UK or the EU. I can still apply from the EU and pay the ~£9000, but we don't know what the agreement will be after Brexit, and after Brexit is when my sister will be applying. It's extremely frustrating just not knowing what will happen, not knowing whether we should be moving back, or staying put.
There are lots of academic links between the EU and the UK that are now uncertain.
Original post by SofaChillReview
Corbyn has been struggling since the anti Semitism remarks and general floundering but thankfully May has been just as bad in all other aspects
I know remainers who will now vote leave though, as they refuse to have it changed and no matter what people say, we finally got a chance to vote on something, both parties have false information but that is like any election
Personally get Umunna in .....
I know remainers who will now vote leave though, as they refuse to have it changed and no matter what people say, we finally got a chance to vote on something, both parties have false information but that is like any election
Personally get Umunna in .....
I don’t think you can have a second referendum because you don’t like the result of the first.
A second referendum has to be about a failure of Parliament. Remain has to be in that vote because you have to be fair to the whole country. Likewise there has to be a hard Brexit option.
What you can’t allow is the Big Man argument, that if only Corbyn, Johnson, Rees-Mogg was in charge he would have secured a better deal. By the force of the Big Man’s personality, the EU would have agreed to that which they have rejected.
(edited 5 years ago)
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