D&D Religion's "Ask About Sikhism" Thread

USingh

Well seeing as you requested me not to debate with you so nicely I don't see the point.

Ah yes very true. Now I see your true colours Mr.Khalistan, and you call me fundamentalist lol, makes sense now.

Reply 481

Charzhino

19

What does the Sikhism say about Polygmy. I found these verses which on the surface show that it could possibly be acceptable.

26-16

You may enjoy the pleasures of hundreds of thousands of women, and rule the nine continents of the world.
But without the True Guru, you will not find peace; you will be reincarnated over and over again.

385-4

He may enjoy many women, of exquisite beauty;
but without the sublime essence of the Lord, all tastes are tasteless.

Thoughts?

Reply 482

Suave

11

Personally, I dont think that it shows polygamy is acceptable. If anything, it shows that polygamy will never make you happy and that to marry many women is just a fruitless and futile activity.

Reply 483

Charzhino

19

Thanks for response Suave. Just on another note, I heard Krishna had 16,000 wives. Is polygmy therefore acceptable in Hinduism? Sorry to post this in the Sikh thread, but since it's the same topic I might as well address it.

Reply 484

_H_

Charzhino

26-16

You may enjoy the pleasures of hundreds of thousands of women, and rule the nine continents of the world.
But without the True Guru, you will not find peace; you will be reincarnated over and over again.

385-4

He may enjoy many women, of exquisite beauty;
but without the sublime essence of the Lord, all tastes are tasteless.

polygamy is not acceptable. these lines are basically saying even if you were to enjoy many women you would not find any form of contentment or peace as a result of your actions. similarly with having great wealth-no matter how much you accumulate, it will never be enough. we always want more than we have.
furthermore, it explains that without the Guru it is not possible to eliminate these feelings of greed and lust. finally, solace and liberation will not and cannot be found from anywhere/anyone else. hope that helped slightly.

Reply 485

Charzhino

19

So having supreme wealth is also not acceptable?

Reply 486

SolInvictus

11

Charzhino

Thanks for response Suave. Just on another note, I heard Krishna had 16,000 wives. Is polygmy therefore acceptable in Hinduism? Sorry to post this in the Sikh thread, but since it's the same topic I might as well address it.

Polygamy is acceptable for both sexes in Puranic Hinduism. Draupadi had Five husbands, Dasratha had 3 wives...... it was reserved for the noble martial classes (Knights, Warrior Aristocracy etc.) for whom a wide network of relationships was necessary to keep an ever dwindling gene pool diverse.

The Vedic ideal, though, is of one man and one woman, although the situation above tends to apply to the Gods.

Krsna is an important figure. He is God, so the love of 16,000 teaches that all love is wonderful, and would later give rise to the belief of many female saints, especially Mirabai, that they were spiritually married to God alone.

Reply 487

_H_

Charzhino

So having supreme wealth is also not acceptable?

depends on your definition of supreme wealth.
if by supreme wealth, you mean worldly goods then i suppose it is acceptable to be well off. it is unacceptable however, to be attached to this wealth of have greed for more. one should always bear in mind that it will no go with you when you die. shrouds dont have pockets.
to a sikh, true wealth is that which is accumulated by meditation on the Lords name as only this will bring contentment, and only this wealth will go with your soul when you die.

sorry for the ramble.

Reply 488

med_lion

LOL Usingh @ "What shall i say..JAI HIND?" LMMFAO :biggrin:

I can't stop laughing :P

Suave you wrote in one of your previous posts that "Sikhism is one of many sects of Hinduism" - brother, what B***s**t is this? :biggrin:

SolInvixtus states that Krishna is God. Sikhism strictly forbids saying that a human is God. We do believe that Krishna was like a "prophet" and spoke of God's Word. Also, polygamy is not acceptable by Sikhism as _H_ and Suave explained above.

p.s. i love reading the arguments between USingh and Suave lol. So much sarcasm makes me laugh :biggrin:

Reply 489

Suave

11

med_lion

p.s. i love reading the arguments between USingh and Suave lol. So much sarcasm makes me laugh :biggrin:

Glad to provide some humour :yep:

Can someone briefly explain to me what sikhism is? I know that it's a monotheism religion and that there are around 10 gurus, and that there is a sense of reincarnation, but wholly different than the Hindu belief. Thanks.

Reply 492

USingh

1

Sephirona

Can someone briefly explain to me what sikhism is? I know that it's a monotheism religion and that there are around 10 gurus, and that there is a sense of reincarnation, but wholly different than the Hindu belief. Thanks.

Through the ten Guru's the word of God, Guru Granth Sahib Ji (the Sikh scriptures which is know the 11th Guru) was revealed. Guru Granth Sahib Ji, or the hymns inside it Gurbani envoke the true love of God. Without following the Guru's in the form of the hymns given to us by them, one cannot reach God.
The aim of life and the only goal a Sikh should have in mind is to love God, nothing else.

Sikhism has two aspects- 'Miri and Piri'- Miri means having a political side, living in the world and contributing to it, while Piri means having a spiritual side.
This ties into the Sikh ideal of being a "Sant-Sipahi", a Saint-Soldier. For this reason one of the compulsory items for baptised Sikhs (5 Ks) is a small sword. The other four are the hair and turban, comb (cleanliness next to Godliness!),Kara which is an iron bangle and also special shorts which are in practical terms a reminder that you are a Sikh so don't do anything dodgy *ahem* and also they are designed for freedom of movement in a fighting atmosphere.
The spiritual side is simply put following everything written in Gurbani, and reading certain daily prayers and incorporating what they say into your life. Love God, think of him in everything you do, follow the Guru 100%, there are also four sins which are the worst and would require you to be re-baptised into Sikhism if you commited any one of them, they are:
1)Cutting hair
2)Sexual relations outside of marriage
3)Eating meat
4)Taking any intoxicants
One common saying used to describe Sikhism is "Naam japo, kirat karo, vand chako", basically, be spiritual, earn an honest living and share with others.

Sorry if that post was abit all over the place lol, bit busy. Hope it helped :smile:

Reply 493

Sephirona

18

USingh

Through the ten Guru's the word of God, Guru Granth Sahib Ji (the Sikh scriptures which is know the 11th Guru) was revealed. Guru Granth Sahib Ji, or the hymns inside it Gurbani envoke the true love of God. Without following the Guru's in the form of the hymns given to us by them, one cannot reach God.
The aim of life and the only goal a Sikh should have in mind is to love God, nothing else.

Sikhism has two aspects- 'Miri and Piri'- Miri means having a political side, living in the world and contributing to it, while Piri means having a spiritual side.
This ties into the Sikh ideal of being a "Sant-Sipahi", a Saint-Soldier. For this reason one of the compulsory items for baptised Sikhs (5 Ks) is a small sword. The other four are the hair and turban, comb (cleanliness next to Godliness!),Kara which is an iron bangle and also special shorts which are in practical terms a reminder that you are a Sikh so don't do anything dodgy *ahem* and also they are designed for freedom of movement in a fighting atmosphere.
The spiritual side is simply put following everything written in Gurbani, and reading certain daily prayers and incorporating what they say into your life. Love God, think of him in everything you do, follow the Guru 100%, there are also four sins which are the worst and would require you to be re-baptised into Sikhism if you commited any one of them, they are:
1)Cutting hair
2)Sexual relations outside of marriage
3)Eating meat
4)Taking any intoxicants
One common saying used to describe Sikhism is "Naam japo, kirat karo, vand chako", basically, be spiritual, earn an honest living and share with others.

Sorry if that post was abit all over the place lol, bit busy. Hope it helped :smile:

Very interesting, thanks. Why aren't you allowed to cut your hair, or eat meat? I knew about the hair, but I never knew you had to be a vegie. If possible could you provide scriptual evidences?

Reply 494

Charzhino

19

Theres been a debate in the last few pages regarding eating meat.

Reply 495

USingh

1

Sephirona

Very interesting, thanks. Why aren't you allowed to cut your hair, or eat meat? I knew about the hair, but I never knew you had to be a vegie. If possible could you provide scriptual evidences?

Hair, like many things in Sikhism is important for multiple reasons. Its firstly a major symbol of Sikhism and the Gurus, it is known as 'Guru di nishani', the mark of the Guru. The Gurus wanted it so that one Sikhi could be spotted in many, this is so that a Sikh is never ashamed of who he is and who he belongs to and also as idealistic as it may sound, to be recognized as someone who can be found to ask for help.
The turban is basically the pride of a Sikh, literally a Sikh's crown and also a gift that we have been given the form of the Guru himself.
Hair is also a specifically spiritual gift from God (who we call Vaheguru btw), its difficult to explain in brief but hair is basically a special part of our body which has a higher spiritual connection. I know that sounds a bit nutty, but believe me it makes a lot more sense in context lol.

In regards to meat, the reason meat is forbidden is that in a Sikh's life, or any human being for that matter, one must have compassion and mercy, without that how can anyone expect to impress God? In the Sikh view to kill an animal for a selfish and unnecessary reason like a liking for the taste is completely lacking in mercy.
Some quotes from Gurbani:

"Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal. (the actual word here which has been translated as legal was 'halal', so meat is the issue being discussed in this line)
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then? ||187||
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188|| "
-1347

"You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1|| "
-1350

and finally

"O Kabeer! Those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||"
-1377

Let me know if you would like to know anything else :smile:

Reply 496

med_lion

Sephirona

Very interesting, thanks. Why aren't you allowed to cut your hair, or eat meat? I knew about the hair, but I never knew you had to be a vegie. If possible could you provide scriptual evidences?

God abides in all. Why kill a chicken? :eek:

Reply 497

Sephirona

18

Interesting, but what about fruit and veg? Aren't they organisms?

Reply 498

Amit92

14

Here are some stanzas from the Gurus and the Guru Granth Saheb in which the Hindu-Sikh affinity is evident :

Taha hum adhik tapasya sadhi Mahakal kalika aradhi
- Guru Govind Singh ji
(There I worshipped and did penance to seek Kali.)

Ram katha jug jug atal
Sab koi bhakhat net Suragbas Raghuver kara
Sagri puri samet Jo en Katha sune aur gaave
Dukh pap tah nikat na aave

- Guru Govind Singh ji

(The story of Ram is immortal and everyone should read it. Ram went to heaven along with the whole city. Whoever listens to or sings His story, will be free of sin and sorrow.)

Kahaiya Hinduan daro na ab tum
Im likho pathon dil sain Guru Nanak ki gadi par
Ab hain Tegh Bahadur Unko jo Muhummadi kar lihoon
To ham hain sab sadar Arya Dharma rakhak pragatiyo hain

- Guru Tegh Bahadur

(Hindus, do not fear, Guru Tegh Bahadur is Guru Nanak's successor. If Muslims bother you, I'll take care of them. For I am the protector of Hinduism.)

Tin te sun Siri Tegh Bahadur
Dharam nibaahan bikhe Bahadur Uttar bhaniyo, dharam hum Hindu
Atipriya ko kin karen nikandu Lok parlok ubhaya sukhani
Aan napahant yahi samani Mat mileen murakh mat loi
Ise tayage pramar soi Hindu dharam rakhe jag mahin
Tumre kare bin se it nahin

- Guru Tegh Bahadur's reply to Aurangzeb's ordering him to embrace Islam.

(In response, Shri Tegh Bahadur says, My religion is Hindu and how can I abandon what is so dear to me? This religion helps you in this world and that, and only a fool would abandon it. God himself is the protector of this religion and no one can destroy it.)

Sakal jagat main Khalsa Panth gaje
Jage dharam Hindu sakal bhand bhaje

- Guru Govind Singh Ji

(The Khalsa sect will roar around the world. Hinduism will awaken, its enemies will flee.)

Hindus and Sikhs are brothers?

What do you have to say about this, please can you tell me your view?
Your scriptures cannot speak lies right?

Whatever you think is right Jai Hind or Jo bole So Nihaal - Sat Sri Akal, are we not similar?

Thanks

Reply 499

USingh

1

I just want to start off my reply to you in response to something you said about Hindus and Sikhs being brothers. Please dont be confused, Sikhs choose to be independent from Hindus but that does not mean we do not feel love for them or have any fraternity. Guru Ji loved all and taught his Sikhs to be the same, so yes Hindus and Sikhs certainly are brothers as are Sikhs with the whole world, with Christians, Muslims, Jews and even atheists. So please don't think that just because we remain distinct, as told by our Gurus that we feel any ill will towards Hindus.

Now, in response to your queries,

Amit92

Here are some stanzas from the Gurus and the Guru Granth Saheb in which the Hindu-Sikh affinity is evident :

Taha hum adhik tapasya sadhi Mahakal kalika aradhi
- Guru Govind Singh ji
(There I worshipped and did penance to seek Kali.)

(Answer from another site)
The truth is that Guru Ji never ever worshipped any idols of Hinduism. Guru Ji always worshipped one God and taught Sikhs to do the same. RSS is not using Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s lines accurately. RSS is saying this:

“Mahan Kaal Kalka Aaradhi”

Kalka is name of Hindu Goddess Kali Devi but Guru Ji never said anything like this. Guru Ji’s original lines are these:

“Mahan Kaal, Kaal Ka Aaradhi”

Which means that Guru Ji worshipped the greatest of great power, which is death of death meaning God. God is the death of death. Mahan Kaal means “Death” and Kaal Ka means “Of Death” and Aaradhi means “Worshipped”. So Guru Ji worshipped the death of death, which is the almighty power of one God. If we read the next lines we find that Guru Ji truly worshipped One God. The next lines say this:

“Eh Bidh Karat Tapaseya Bhaeyo, Dve Te Eek Roop Hve Gaeyo”

Guru Ji is saying that “By meditating upon God’s name I became one with God like a glass of water in a big ocean. I am encompassed in his glory” Guru Gobind Singh Ji also said:

I do not accept Ganesha as important. I do not meditate on Krishna, neither on Vishnu. I do not hear them and do not recognize them. My love is with the Lotus feet of God. He is my protector, the Supreme Lord. I am dust of his Lotus feet. (Guru Gobind Singh)

This clearly proves that Guru Ji worshipped One God and the only way to worship God is to meditate upon His true name. RSS is changing these lines and trying to convince Sikhs that they are part of Hinduism.

Gurbani lines on Hindu worship:

Why worship gods and goddesses, O Siblings of Destiny? What can we ask of them? What can they give us? The stone gods(idols) are washed with water, O Siblings of Destiny, but they just sink in the water. (Ang 637)

You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God. Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways. (Ang 332)

Ram katha jug jug atal
Sab koi bhakhat net Suragbas Raghuver kara
Sagri puri samet Jo en Katha sune aur gaave
Dukh pap tah nikat na aave

- Guru Govind Singh ji

(The story of Ram is immortal and everyone should read it. Ram went to heaven along with the whole city. Whoever listens to or sings His story, will be free of sin and sorrow.)

This shouldn't be quoted as if it is a direct instruction to Sikhs by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. It is from a text by Guru Ji called 'Ramavtar', part of a bigger composition called 'Chaubhis Avatar', it is basically an explanation of the Hindu belief in Avatars of Vishnu for Sikhs to have knowledge on what others believe, not Guru Ji's own beliefs or instructions. The purpose of the text is not for spiritual guidance. Its only the commentaries that Guru Ji adds in that are his belief. Guru Ji's opinion in regards to what he is about to narrate, i.e. supposed incarnations of God, is made clear right at the start:

"Those who are called (known as)twenty-four incarnations;
O Lord ! they even could not realise thee in a small measure
They became kings of the world and got deluded;
Therefore they were called by innumerable names.7."

So as you can see according to Sikh belief what Hindus consider avatars were just people who were Kings. The confusion occurs from thinking that what Guru Ji said that Hindus believe is what he believed himself.

Kahaiya Hinduan daro na ab tum
Im likho pathon dil sain Guru Nanak ki gadi par
Ab hain Tegh Bahadur Unko jo Muhummadi kar lihoon
To ham hain sab sadar Arya Dharma rakhak pragatiyo hain

- Guru Tegh Bahadur

(Hindus, do not fear, Guru Tegh Bahadur is Guru Nanak's successor. If Muslims bother you, I'll take care of them. For I am the protector of Hinduism.)

This is not in any accepted religious scripture. Though I really don't see how it proves Guru Sahib was a Hindu. Why can we not just accept Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji's martrydom for what it was? Why lower his sacrifice by saying that he must have been a Hindu to give his life to save them from tyranny? Yes Guru Ji certainly is a protector of Hinduism, he is the protector of the whole world.

Tin te sun Siri Tegh Bahadur
Dharam nibaahan bikhe Bahadur Uttar bhaniyo, dharam hum Hindu
Atipriya ko kin karen nikandu Lok parlok ubhaya sukhani
Aan napahant yahi samani Mat mileen murakh mat loi
Ise tayage pramar soi Hindu dharam rakhe jag mahin
Tumre kare bin se it nahin

- Guru Tegh Bahadur's reply to Aurangzeb's ordering him to embrace Islam.

(In response, Shri Tegh Bahadur says, My religion is Hindu and how can I abandon what is so dear to me? This religion helps you in this world and that, and only a fool would abandon it. God himself is the protector of this religion and no one can destroy it.)

Once again, not from any Sikh scripture. This is from the sooraj parkash granth by kavi santokh singh, written in 1843 whereas Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji's martyrdom was in 1675. Santokh Singh is an ok source, but has at times extreme contradictions and he was a known Bhang (drug) user with Hindu influences from a young age.
Coincidentally, the following passage is from the same book:

"First there were Hindus and Muslims, take note, there are three now."

On his way towards Deccan, Guru Gobind Singh reached Pushkar .The discussion that took place there is recorded this way in Surya Prakash.

Brahmins, Merchants and others came with Pandit Chaitin. Having made salutation they sat down in the assembly and asked, “What is their Caste? How we recognize them. Your companions wear unshorn hair, what we can say is their Caste? There are many new garbs, but none of them is Hindu or Moslem.” Having heard that Guru replied, “Khalsa is the third Panth in the world. It is distinct from Hindus and Moslems. They are servants of the Eternal, Immortal.” When Guru Gobind Singh met the Emperor Bahadur Shah, this discussion transpired.

Bahadur Shah said, “There are two religions, Hindus and Moslems, What appeals to you? On what you have faith, Hinduism or Islam?”

To that Guru Gobind Singh replied, "Hindu, Moslems whatever way they follow we wish them both well. The Moslems preach fasting; prayer call and five prayers are supreme for them. Hindus perform Sandhya, adoration and rites of stone Gods, and such others are acceptable to Hindus. We consider both the same way abandoning all others; we have established the Khalsa as the third (religion). Without distinction we abandon all else and seek the shelter of the Eternal, the Purusha."

Sakal jagat main Khalsa Panth gaje
Jage dharam Hindu sakal bhand bhaje

- Guru Govind Singh Ji

(The Khalsa sect will roar around the world. Hinduism will awaken, its enemies will flee.)

This is from a scripture called Uggardanti, that translation is incorrect and does not say that Sikhs are Hindus.
The line is translated as "the Khalsa nation will roar around the world." The Khalsa Panth is a term used to describe the Sikh nation as a whole, in fact the point of it was an addition to the distinct identity. So as you can see, in this line alone the Khalsa and Hinduism have been described seperately already, if any thing its simply stating Hindus will become more religious and their enimies will flee.
This is the real translation:

"Graves, Hindu temples and Mosques be destroyed and that only Eternal, Hari(this doesn't mean Vishnu btw) is to be worshiped."

"There is too much corruption in the two religions (Hindu and Islam). The third Panth (Khalsa) is made prominent

The Khalsa Panth is established. Sikh warriors flourish in the world, blue in their wearing."

Whatever you think is right Jai Hind or Jo bole So Nihaal - Sat Sri Akal, are we not similar?

Thanks

We are brothers of mankind, all are humans at the end of the day, however Bole So Nihaal, Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh, all may seem minor, but are important statements given to Sikhs by Guru Gobind Singh Ji to remain 'nyara' distinct.

"Jab Lag Khalsa Rahe Niara, Tab Lag Tej Dioon Mein Sara Jab Eh Gaye Bipran Ki Reet, Mein Na Karoon In Ki Parteet"
As long as the Khalsa remain distinct, I will give them all of my support. When they begin to follow the way of the Brahmins, I will not care for them"

"I do not accept the doctrines enunciated by various faiths, believing in Ram, Rahim, Puranas and Qoran.
The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas mention different concepts but I do not subscribe to any of them.
O God, the Sword-bearer (of justice)! With Your Grace, all that has been uttered by me has been done under Your command."

-Guru Gobind Singh Ji

If you wish, please do have a read of some of these articles, they will address a lot of questions you may have:

http://www.searchsikhism.com/hinduism.html
especially this one:
http://www.searchsikhism.com/rss.html (if you scroll down past the long intro there is a Q&A)

My request to you, if you wish for a brotherhood between Sikhs and Hindus, which the Sikhs certainly are not against, then give up this ideology of trying to engulf Sikhs into Hinduism, all problems that have happened in India with Sikhs (you know what I'm talking about right? 1980s) has been because of this ideology that insists on making Sikhs Hindus. The minute that it is accepted that Sikhs are distinct and wish to be seperate, believe me you will then see this brotherhood flourish. Afterall, the foundation stone for this was laid down by Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib himself :smile:

D&D Religion's "Ask About Sikhism" Thread

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